Oh my heck! It's another Ordain Women thread! (A poll, actually . . .)

[Lakumi]

The CoC/RLDS has largely abandoned much that made them unique from other Christian denominations.

Yeah talked with people who had been to one of their services and they said it wasn't much different from a lot of Christian churches, one mentioned how they never read from the BoM once during the service.

I also heard someone (non religious) describe them as Diet LDS (or LDS Lite) they don't use the Pearl of Great Price, their Doctrine and Covenants is different-I know their Word of Wisdom is a suggestion not a requirement.

[MormonMama]

My understanding is that God has set up the church the way He wants it, including who gets ordained to the Priesthood. So until God changes that, I am opposed to the ordination of women.

If I believed that the Priesthood was something made up by the men of the church and given to whomever they chose at their whim, I could not be a member of the church. But I believe the church and the Priesthood is governed by God and I trust His judgment.

[Maureen]

...However over the last 30 years women have pushed to be equal to men...

By saying this, are you admitting that women are not equal to men in the LDS church?

M.

[Drpepper]

By saying this, are you admitting that women are not equal to men in the LDS church?

M.

No, not saying that at all. I was saying their roles are not the same is probably a better way of putting it. Not just in the the LDS church but society as a whole. God set it up that way. If anyone has a problem with it, perhaps they should take it up with him.

On a side note, I really enjoyed watching the women's conference. The singing and video presentations were a breath of fresh air. I wonder if conference will ever adopt a format a little less speaker after speaker and throw in some musical items and media?

Edited March 30, 2014 by Drpepper

[SpiritDragon]

By saying this, are you admitting that women are not equal to men in the LDS church?

M.

Hey Maureen, I respectfully disagree with this assertion in the given context. Drpepper already stated that it seems that women want to "be" men. In this context (and I know it can be argued semantics) it seems that equal is meant to mean identical as opposed to of equal value.

Therefore saying women have been pushing to be equal is not an admission of any kind that women are of lesser value, rather that some women do not appreciate the value they have and seek to be equal by being the same, as opposed to equal in worth while different in nature.

[Maureen]

My understanding of OW's objectives is that, in the LDS church to be able to contribute to policy and organizational decisions you need to have the priesthood. Therefore if LDS women had the priesthood they would be allowed to help with policy and organization decisions. If LDS women were given the ability to contribute to organizational decisions without the okey-dokey of the priesthood then maybe they wouldn't be seeking the priesthood.

M.

[pam]

My understanding of OW's objectives is that, in the LDS church to be able to contribute to policy and organizational decisions you need to have the priesthood. Therefore if LDS women had the priesthood they would be allowed to help with policy and organization decisions. If LDS women were given the ability to contribute to organizational decisions without the okey-dokey of the priesthood then maybe they wouldn't be seeking the priesthood.

M.

And do you think that women within the church don't already help to make policy and organizational decisions? I think the leadership of the church confer quite often with the auxiliary leaders in making decisions.

[Just_A_Guy]

My understanding of OW's objectives is that, in the LDS church to be able to contribute to policy and organizational decisions you need to have the priesthood. Therefore if LDS women had the priesthood they would be allowed to help with policy and organization decisions. If LDS women were given the ability to contribute to organizational decisions without the okey-dokey of the priesthood then maybe they wouldn't be seeking the priesthood.

M.

Well, in the sense that I think you're talking about: in the LDS church to be able to contribute to policy and organizational decisions you need to be one of a select group that consists of fifteen individuals (well, eighty-five-odd, if you want to count the Seventies) at the Church-wide level, or three individuals at the stake level, or three individuals at the ward level.

If you're not part of one of those groups, then your ability to "contribute to policy and organizational decisions" on the local or church-wide levels is limited to bringing your concerns to the attention of that elite subset of decision-makers; and neither your gender nor your priesthood status really have much bearing on that process.

[Guest]

And do you think that women within the church don't already help to make policy and organizational decisions? I think the leadership of the church confer quite often with the auxiliary leaders in making decisions.

And I know for a fact that the ward leadership relies heavily on the input of the auxiliary presidents.

[Maureen]

From the OW website, under Frequently asked Questions:

Why is ordination necessary for women in the LDS Church?

Except at the highest levels of administration, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a lay church. It is organized such that all members have the opportunity to speak, teach, and pray in local congregations. Only boys and men, however, are ordained to the lay priesthood and have ritual and administrative authority in the Church. Despite their gifts, talents, and aspirations, women are excluded from almost all positions of clerical, fiscal, ritual, and decision-making authority.

While women perform significant service in the Church’s auxiliaries, such as the Primary, Relief Society, Sunday School, and Young Women’s organizations, their contributions are always mediated and under the direction of male priesthood leaders. According to the Church’s Gospel Principles manual, “Men use priesthood authority to preside in the Church. . . . Women who hold positions in the Church . . . work under the direction of the priesthood.” As such, Mormon women have many delegated responsibilities but lack the authority to define and oversee those responsibilities.

This lack of female authority does not stop at the church doors. The Church’s Proclamation on the Family declares that men preside over their wives and families, thus preserving an antiquated and unequal model in both the domestic and ecclesiastical realms.

While many thoughtful men in priesthood leadership positions make decisions that include input from women, the male governing structure of the Church means that women’s voices are inevitably left out, overlooked, and discounted.

Since leadership and positional authority in Mormonism is inextricably tied to priesthood ordination, it is clear that Mormon women must be ordained in order to be full and equal participants in their Church.

This is how OW sees it.

M.

[Just_A_Guy]

Other than the complaint that a hierarchal structure results in the hierarchy sometimes not giving due attention to women (and, though OW doesn't acknowledge it, men) who aren't part of the hierarchal structure--I have a hard time distilling the above down to anything besides:

"We want to be in visible in positions of authority. Because . . . equality."

I'm sure you're aware that the notion of wanting authoritative positions is severely frowned upon in Mormon culture; as is the idea (which OW frequently repeats) that this church is "our" (the members') church and that assignments in the hierarchy are a sort of plum, allocated as an entitlement to members who have "paid their dues" by giving the right kinds of church service. All of these attitudes betray a fundamental misunderstanding of what priesthood is, and how it works; leading orthodox Mormons to reply to groups like OW that "Ye know not what ye ask" (Matt 20:22).

Edited March 30, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[Maureen]

I think personally for me, the witnessing of a baby being blessed without the baby's mother taking part, was a strange sight. Baby blessings are very similar to baby christenings or baby dedications that happen in other churches. And those rituals include several people connected with that baby from both genders. So for something as wonderful as a baby blessing, it just seems so strange to not see a mother being a part of it.

M.

[Just_A_Guy]

Point taken; though as I understand it this can happen even where the parents/participants aren't ordained ministers of any denomination and/or the denomination doesn't ordain women to its clergy. I think even Mormonism could hypothetically start allowing mothers to hold their babies as they are blessed, without ordaining women to its priesthood.

[Palerider]

And do you think that women within the church don't already help to make policy and organizational decisions? I think the leadership of the church confer quite often with the auxiliary leaders in making decisions.

I can only speak for the local and stake area where I live and can assure you they play a big role in that area.

[Palerider]

I know the Community of Christ (aka the RLDS) has women in the priesthood and their 12. How's it working for them? I know the two churches aren't bff's (and one is far bigger then the other) but they certainly don't have the sort of bad blood the Catholic's and Protestant's did/do.

I admit to knowing far less about the CoC/RLDS then I do about the LDS (they don't have folk coming to my door to answer my questions lol)

Again.....I can only speak for the Nauvoo area cause I go there quite often and both churches have a great relationship

[Maureen]

Point taken; though as I understand it this can happen even where the parents/participants aren't ordained ministers of any denomination and/or the denomination doesn't ordain women to its clergy.

Yes, they are usually members of the congregation.

I think even Mormonism could hypothetically start allowing mothers to hold their babies as they are blessed, without ordaining women to its priesthood.

I think that would be a great first step.

M.

[Drpepper]

I think personally for me, the witnessing of a baby being blessed without the baby's mother taking part, was a strange sight. Baby blessings are very similar to baby christenings or baby dedications that happen in other churches. And those rituals include several people connected with that baby from both genders. So for something as wonderful as a baby blessing, it just seems so strange to not see a mother being a part of it.

M.

I think this shows your misunderstanding on the role, purpose and blessings of the priesthood within the marriage and family unit. As far as other churches are concerned well it doesn't really matter who is standing there. There is no Priesthood involved. This is a fundamental doctrine of the church. Why we have it, how we got it, and why we are the only church on the earth who has this authority can't be stepped over or watered down for social circles. Its God's authority to give how and when he wants and the moment people start to realise this is the moment we will start seeing less threads like this one.

[RipplecutBuddha]

Just for my part, this poll doesn't introduce any useful dialogue. Yes it's interesting to ask 'what if' questions, however we are discussing the eternal organization of the priesthood of God. We could just as profitably discuss 'what if the Earth suddenly lost its gravitational field' or, more appropriately, 'what if obedience to eternal truths was no longer required to enter the Celestial Kingdom?'.

In these discussions I have seen a small hint, here and there, of people not-so-directly saying that they think it ought to happen, women being given the priesthood. I cannot overstate how dangerous this position is for whomever holds it. If there were a better way for this church to be organized and run with the authority of God, don't you suppose he would have already had it in place by now?

I have a sickening feeling that this issue will lead to many people leaving the church, if not openly attacking it.

If the Lord reveals tomorrow that women are to be given the priesthood, so be it. Until then, it's not even a possibility I feel safe in entertaining. That path leads to questioning whether or not Christ knows what he's doing, let alone the duly appointed leaders of his church. I wish to stay as far away as possible from that cliff.

[The Folk Prophet]

Point taken; though as I understand it this can happen even where the parents/participants aren't ordained ministers of any denomination and/or the denomination doesn't ordain women to its clergy. I think even Mormonism could hypothetically start allowing mothers to hold their babies as they are blessed, without ordaining women to its priesthood.

Depends on whether the holding of the baby is an integral part of the actual ordinance or not. A woman could not, for example, lay her hands on the head of a person while the men confirmed them. I think (though I don't know for sure) that the holding of the child is as much a part of the blessing as is the blessing itself. In point of fact, older children are given the same blessing via the laying on of hands.

[The Folk Prophet]

Just for my part, this poll doesn't introduce any useful dialogue. Yes it's interesting to ask 'what if' questions, however we are discussing the eternal organization of the priesthood of God. We could just as profitably discuss 'what if the Earth suddenly lost its gravitational field' or, more appropriately, 'what if obedience to eternal truths was no longer required to enter the Celestial Kingdom?'.

In these discussions I have seen a small hint, here and there, of people not-so-directly saying that they think it ought to happen, women being given the priesthood. I cannot overstate how dangerous this position is for whomever holds it. If there were a better way for this church to be organized and run with the authority of God, don't you suppose he would have already had it in place by now?

I have a sickening feeling that this issue will lead to many people leaving the church, if not openly attacking it.

If the Lord reveals tomorrow that women are to be given the priesthood, so be it. Until then, it's not even a possibility I feel safe in entertaining. That path leads to questioning whether or not Christ knows what he's doing, let alone the duly appointed leaders of his church. I wish to stay as far away as possible from that cliff.

I wish I could double thank this post.

[The Folk Prophet]

From the OW website, under Frequently asked Questions:

Why is ordination necessary for women in the LDS Church?

Except at the highest levels of administration, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a lay church. It is organized such that all members have the opportunity to speak, teach, and pray in local congregations. Only boys and men, however, are ordained to the lay priesthood and have ritual and administrative authority in the Church. Despite their gifts, talents, and aspirations, women are excluded from almost all positions of clerical, fiscal, ritual, and decision-making authority.

While women perform significant service in the Church’s auxiliaries, such as the Primary, Relief Society, Sunday School, and Young Women’s organizations, their contributions are always mediated and under the direction of male priesthood leaders. According to the Church’s Gospel Principles manual, “Men use priesthood authority to preside in the Church. . . . Women who hold positions in the Church . . . work under the direction of the priesthood.” As such, Mormon women have many delegated responsibilities but lack the authority to define and oversee those responsibilities.

This lack of female authority does not stop at the church doors. The Church’s Proclamation on the Family declares that men preside over their wives and families, thus preserving an antiquated and unequal model in both the domestic and ecclesiastical realms.

While many thoughtful men in priesthood leadership positions make decisions that include input from women, the male governing structure of the Church means that women’s voices are inevitably left out, overlooked, and discounted.

Since leadership and positional authority in Mormonism is inextricably tied to priesthood ordination, it is clear that Mormon women must be ordained in order to be full and equal participants in their Church.

This is how OW sees it.

M.

The problem with this whole point-of-view from OW is that it infers that men lead this church. They do not. God does. It's as simple as that.

[Maureen]

I think this shows your misunderstanding on the role, purpose and blessings of the priesthood within the marriage and family unit. As far as other churches are concerned well it doesn't really matter who is standing there.

You are incorrect. It does matter; the people involved are usually connected with the baby.

There is no Priesthood involved.

There is no LDS priesthood involved because they are non-LDS rituals that have meaning and are sacred to those participating.

This is a fundamental doctrine of the church. Why we have it, how we got it, and why we are the only church on the earth who has this authority can't be stepped over or watered down for social circles. Its God's authority to give how and when he wants and the moment people start to realise this is the moment we will start seeing less threads like this one.

I can't imagine how having a mother involved with the blessing of her baby would take away from the authority given to the priesthood holders involved in the blessing itself.

M.

[The Folk Prophet]

I can't imagine how having a mother involved with the blessing of her baby would take away from the authority given to the priesthood holders involved in the blessing itself.

That's sort of like saying, "I can't imagine how it would take away from baptism to sprinkle them instead of using immersion." I mean, I honestly can't imagine why immersion is so important. I have never, personally, understood why we have to get dunked in water to enter God's kingdom. That's the way God set it up though. So I trust it despite my inability to imagine the importance of it.

[Drpepper]

Maureen: I can understand why you feel the way you do. Without a testimony that God has set up his kingdom and organised it in his way then why not question the way things are done. However your asking men to change what God has set forth and this is the missing part you fail to recognize. I have had the opportunity to bless 5 of my children in which my wife did not participate directly in the blessing on that day. However since those blessings i have watched her bless the lives of my children every single day, in ways I could not. Which makes me stand in amazement and awe at how perfect God's plan really is. Who am I to change that?

[Maureen]

The problem with this whole point-of-view from OW is that it infers that men lead this church. They do not. God does. It's as simple as that.

Yes, but how do you believe God leads? Isn't it through your Prophet and the General Authorities, who all hold the priesthood?

The authority and power that God gives to man to act in all things for the salvation of man (D&C 50:26–27). Male members of the Church who hold the priesthood are organized into quorums and are authorized to perform ordinances and certain administrative functions in the Church.

M.