Please help us get to the temple!

[Guest]

Actually, sometimes timing is a factor.  My parents got married civilly and got pregnant pretty quick.  They were urged by their leaders to get sealed in the temple sooner rather than later so my sister would be born in the covenant.  (not saying this is the case but sometimes an extra 6 months makes a difference)

 

 

I would think this is still not that big of a deal in the eternal scheme of things.  Being BIC or being sealed later... even after death... is still sealed.

[estradling75]

  Getting the stake president involved and explaining, "we don't understand why our four months of tithing are only being considered one payment simply because we forgot to bring the envelopes to church with us." Is the next appropriate thing to do when the bishop and the members can't resolve the issue.  That is part of the stake president's calling and hardly qualifies as "railing against the bishop."

 

Also, I have to disagree that just because we only get one side of the story means that we have to advising to get the stake president involved is irresponsible.  Afterall, the first thing the stake president should do when he gets that call is get a full understanding of both side of the story.  Something that we are not in a position to do.  Saying, "we don't know all the details of the other side of the story so you should just do what the bishop says," sounds fairly ludicrous.

 

 

It can be premature to bring in the Stake President if you have not sat down with the Bishop and said "we don't understand why our four months of tithing are only being considered one payment simply because we forgot to bring the envelopes to church with us." and listend to what he said and the instructions and teaching he is trying to get accross.  Asking such a question of the bishop is exactly the kind of thing a person should do when they don't understand, before going to the Stake President

 

Once you have that answer then you are in a better position to determine if a visit to the Stake President might be helpful.

[notquiteperfect]

Folk and Anatess -  I agree with you both.  I'm just trying to show that there is wiggle room and sometimes we need to see that and not get so caught up in our own version of things (meaning the bishop resetting the clock).  After all, I'm pretty sure I've read something in the scriptures about being merciful.

[Wingnut]

No, it only said they are full-tithe payers since January.  It did not say they were full tithe payers prior to January.  Therefore, as a bishop, he would have nothing to go by except that there are 4 tithing envelopes in one payment.  A bishop will not be able to discern (or at least, I wouldn't), if the tithe-paying habit has been developed... because, turning in the payment is part of tithing... which means, when they forgot 3 times to turn it in, the habit is still a problem.

 

Tithing is about doing it.  It's not about doing it on a schedule or a routine.  If it was, then it would be more regulated.  But we are given the freedom to pay when and how we want.  Paying via automatic withdrawal is still paying, regardless of whether one is in the habit of handing the bishop an envelope or not.  Paying four months at once is still paying four months' worth.  Paying six month's worth over several weeks or months is the same as paying six months' worth in one lump sum.  The intricacies of paying are not so important as the act of actually doing it, whenever and however that gets done.

[Guest]

Tithing is about doing it.  It's not about doing it on a schedule or a routine.  If it was, then it would be more regulated.  But we are given the freedom to pay when and how we want.  Paying via automatic withdrawal is still paying, regardless of whether one is in the habit of handing the bishop an envelope or not.  Paying four months at once is still paying four months' worth.  Paying six month's worth over several weeks or months is the same as paying six months' worth in one lump sum.  The intricacies of paying are not so important as the act of actually doing it, whenever and however that gets done.

It is about commitment. Showing a tithe-paying habit is a way for bishops to know you didn't just buy yourself into the temple... That is, paying tithes for 6 months, getting your TR, getting sealed, and never paying again because you already got what you wanted out of it.

[The Folk Prophet]

It is about commitment. Showing a tithe-paying habit is a way for bishops to know you didn't just buy yourself into the temple... That is, paying tithes for 6 months, getting your TR, getting sealed, and never paying again because you already got what you wanted out of it.

 

Well, technically if you never pay tithing again you got nothing out of it. :) But......

[Str8Shooter]

One of the toughest parts of the repentance process is having to show that true repentance has taken place.  It is difficult to want to go to the temple, or take the sacrament, etc, and not be able to because a sufficient period of time has not passed to show that a change of heart has occurred.

 

In my opinion if tithing is not paid, simply paying the "owed" or "back" tithing does not constitute repentance.  I feel this way because tithing is not a debt or a bill that we can miss a few months then make up for it by paying a lump sum.  Tithing is a demonstration of humility and faith and if we slip up, we need time to show the Lord that we have truly changed.  

 

This does not only apply to tithing, but virtually all other commandments.

 

The advise that I give you is to humbly listen to the counsel of your Bishop and hang in there.  The time will pass really fast.  You can do it.

[Wingnut]

In my opinion if tithing is not paid, simply paying the "owed" or "back" tithing does not constitute repentance.  I feel this way because tithing is not a debt or a bill that we can miss a few months then make up for it by paying a lump sum.  Tithing is a demonstration of humility and faith and if we slip up, we need time to show the Lord that we have truly changed.

 

I got behind in tithing once, about 4-5 months' worth.  I was young and irresponsible, and hadn't pulled it out of my paychecks, and just kept forgetting.  As I got ready to start submitted my mission papers, I talked with my bishop about it.  I had the benefit of this bishop knowing me personally, not just as a bishop -- his wife was my mom's best friend in high school, so he'd known me my whole life.  He understood that I wasn't deliberately not paying, and that I was just being neglectful.  I asked him if I needed to catch up on back tithing, or just start over.  I don't know if he would have said this to everyone he counseled, or not, but he told me that if I felt I needed to take care of the back pay, I could.  But repentence was about starting over, and leaving our past behind us.  Because of that, he asked me not to miss another payment from that day on.  It's been almost 13 years since that interview, and I haven't skipped or delayed another tithing payment since.  I think I caught up on 2-3 months' worth of my back tithing, because I felt guilty about it.  But I eventually came to a point where I took his words to heart, and instead of stressing over the past (and drawing down my mission savings), I took my bishop's counsel and moved forward.

[ACommonMan]

The law of tithing is a physical manifestation of your personal spirituality. One cannot buy their way into the temple by merely ponying up enough cash.

 

How and when to pay are not specifically spelled out in the handbook. I know of people who only pay one lump sum per year. Paying a lump sum is clearly not the issue at hand.

 

A six month probation is fairly typical. A lot of people have spontaneous desires to do righteous things. Only time can tell if there has been a sincere change of heart. The blessings of the temple come with serious covenants. A bishop would be doing a disservice to the patron if he did not feel extremely comfortable that the patron was truly committed to keeping those covenants.

[yjacket]

From what has been presented, I'd have to say the Bishop is a little over the line here.

 

1st in the case of new members, they must wait a year to go to the temple anyways (not sure if amandaandchris are new members).  So buying your way in for new members is possible, but a year is a bit of a wait to be an active member just to buy in to the temple.

 

2nd.  Unless the temple recommend questions have changed, the question is "Are you a full-tithe payer?", not "Are you a full-tithe payer that makes regular tithing payments every month?"  If they bring whatever tithe they haven't previously brought to the Bishop and hand it over before the interview or even the question, then after they pay it, yes they are full-tithe payers.

 

3rd.  If they stop paying tithing afterwards, they just won't be able to go to the temple because the next time they have an interview they will have to say no and the temple covenants won't be in force. 

 

Again unless things have changed recently, I haven't seen anything about how often tithing must be paid.  I've seen plenty of articles in the Ensign about when it should be paid, but there is a difference between should and must.

 

However, the larger point is valid . . . even if a Bishop is out of line I think two options should be pursued, 1) humbly submit to the Bishop's request and 2) speak to the Stake President about it in a humble way (i.e. my understanding of tithing is x and I haven't found anything about y, could you please explain the difference?).

[Guest]

 

3rd.  If they stop paying tithing afterwards, they just won't be able to go to the temple because the next time they have an interview they will have to say no and the temple covenants won't be in force. 

 

 

You are right that there is not enough information given in the OP.  Your understanding is that this issue came up when they haven't reached step 3 yet.  Our understanding is that this issue came up as part of the repentance process for Step 3 laid out for them by the bishop.

 

Two very different scenarios.

[yjacket]

 Our understanding is that this issue came up as part of the repentance process for Step 3 laid out for them by the bishop.

 

Two very different scenarios.

 

I guess, but I'm just not sure I follow.  Repentance process for something else or repentance process for not paying tithing?

 

There is only one time a year outside of the temple recommend that tithing is discussed, tithing settlement.  The only time I could see this as repentance process for not paying tithing is if say at the end of last year, they declared in tithing settlement that they were not full tithe-payers.  But if that were the case, it's a pretty simple solution . .. pay up now and you are good.  At the end of this year, if they declare they aren't full tithe-payers then maybe the Bishop asks for the recommend (not sure if that would qualify as a circumstances for asking for the recommend, but maybe . . .).

 

If it is a repentance process for something else, I guess I could see it . . . but to me it seems a little too close to saying hail marys and then being good.  Repentance is a change of heart and I can certainly see how suggesting that one pay tithing monthly would help cultivate a change of heart, but personally I'm just a little uncomfortable with taking a very simple question of "Are you a full-tithe payer?" to be "Are you paying a monthly tithe?"  

 

But then again, sometimes the Lord asks us to do things that are outside the normal bounds simple to test us to see if we are humble enough to obey.  Maybe that is this case . . . 

 

As a side topic, if I were a Bishop, there is no way I'd want the logistical nightmare of checking into every single person who comes for a temple interview to verify that they pay a monthly tithe.

[Roseslipper]

I have not read all the other post on here but Im sure u got some good advice.  I say do what ever you have to do to get to the Temple.  And stay active all your days and you will be truly blessed.  The Temple is the best place on this earth!!!  It truly is even thou   I haven't been there in awhile myself because of stupid choices I make.  But Im so happy to be able to go back.  It's worth doing whatever you have to do to get there.  The gospel is true, that's the great news we have!!!  And I want you to all know that I care for each and everyone  of you,  even thou I don't know you in person I know that you are my brothers and sisters and that's what counts...:)

[estradling75]

I guess, but I'm just not sure I follow.  Repentance process for something else or repentance process for not paying tithing?

 

There is only one time a year outside of the temple recommend that tithing is discussed, tithing settlement.  The only time I could see this as repentance process for not paying tithing is if say at the end of last year, they declared in tithing settlement that they were not full tithe-payers.  But if that were the case, it's a pretty simple solution . .. pay up now and you are good.  At the end of this year, if they declare they aren't full tithe-payers then maybe the Bishop asks for the recommend (not sure if that would qualify as a circumstances for asking for the recommend, but maybe . . .).

 

If it is a repentance process for something else, I guess I could see it . . . but to me it seems a little too close to saying hail marys and then being good.  Repentance is a change of heart and I can certainly see how suggesting that one pay tithing monthly would help cultivate a change of heart, but personally I'm just a little uncomfortable with taking a very simple question of "Are you a full-tithe payer?" to be "Are you paying a monthly tithe?"  

 

But then again, sometimes the Lord asks us to do things that are outside the normal bounds simple to test us to see if we are humble enough to obey.  Maybe that is this case . . . 

 

As a side topic, if I were a Bishop, there is no way I'd want the logistical nightmare of checking into every single person who comes for a temple interview to verify that they pay a monthly tithe.

 

 

The situation you describe is no where near close to what we are talking about.  The bishop isn't checking the whole ward about tithing.  He is dealing with one individual member/family who is struggling with tithing and wants to go to the temple.  After talking and understanding what this family situation and history has set the bar of six months of tithing payment so they can get recommends.  This is both understandable and a reasonable expectation from the bishop for these individuals.  Then while working with the bishop the OP forgets to pay tithing for four months and then pays it in a lump sum.  Paying in a lump sum is not wrong.  But clearly if they forgot to pay it for four month (and they had the ability to do so) then the bishop is right to be concerned about how quickly they forgot their commitments.  It can understandably give the bishop doubts on if they are truly ready. 

 

It's totally different situation from someone whose personal situation calls for paying tithing once a year or very six months or every quarter.  Its also different from an individual who has been paying with every paycheck for years forgetting for four months and then catching up.

[yjacket]

The situation you describe is no where near close to what we are talking about.  The bishop isn't checking the whole ward about tithing.  He is dealing with one individual member/family who is struggling with tithing and wants to go to the temple.  

Full stop.  By amandaandchris's account "He told us in January that we have to be current in our tithing for 6 months. He didn't say that it had to be consecutively monthly payments. But I took him our 4 months of tithing, in separate enverlopes, and he said it doesn't count. We have faithfully pulled tithing out of every paycheck. We just hadn't brought it to the church.  Told us we have to wait another 6 months".

 

Unless a&c told the Bishop they were not full-tithe payers how else is the Bishop going to know unless he checks?  This doesn't sound too much like an account of someone who doesn't want to pay tithing, it could be if the actual account is a little different, but based on what is written it seems like it is a big miscommunication and the Bishop wants them to pay monthly before getting a recommend, which IMO is a little overboard based on the information available.

 

 

After talking and understanding what this family situation and history has set the bar of six months of tithing payment so they can get recommends.  This is both understandable and a reasonable expectation from the bishop for these individuals.  Then while working with the bishop the OP forgets to pay tithing for four months and then pays it in a lump sum.  Paying in a lump sum is not wrong.  But clearly if they forgot to pay it for four month (and they had the ability to do so) then the bishop is right to be concerned about how quickly they forgot their commitments.  It can understandably give the bishop doubts on if they are truly ready. 

 

It's totally different situation from someone whose personal situation calls for paying tithing once a year or very six months or every quarter.  Its also different from an individual who has been paying with every paycheck for years forgetting for four months and then catching up.

 

That to me seems like a lot of inference based on a very limited amount of information.  The bottom line is that Bishops are most definitely men called of God, but they are human, not perfect and are subject to many errors.  The Bishop might be 100% correct as he obviously has more information on the situation than what is presented on a message board.  But then again he might be a little over-zealous.

 

You clearly state paying in lump sum is not wrong and that it is a personal situation . . . . denying someone a temple recommend over whether they pay monthly or quarterly is IMO a little ticky-tacky; the important point is at the end of the year at tithing settlement are they full tithe-payers and at the temple interview are they full-tithe payers.

[estradling75]

Full stop.  By amandaandchris's account "He told us in January that we have to be current in our tithing for 6 months. He didn't say that it had to be consecutively monthly payments. But I took him our 4 months of tithing, in separate enverlopes, and he said it doesn't count. We have faithfully pulled tithing out of every paycheck. We just hadn't brought it to the church.  Told us we have to wait another 6 months".

 

Unless a&c told the Bishop they were not full-tithe payers how else is the Bishop going to know unless he checks?  This doesn't sound too much like an account of someone who doesn't want to pay tithing, it could be if the actual account is a little different, but based on what is written it seems like it is a big miscommunication and the Bishop wants them to pay monthly before getting a recommend, which IMO is a little overboard based on the information available.

 

 

After talking and understanding what this family situation and history has set the bar of six months of tithing payment so they can get recommends.  This is both understandable and a reasonable expectation from the bishop for these individuals.  Then while working with the bishop the OP forgets to pay tithing for four months and then pays it in a lump sum.  Paying in a lump sum is not wrong.  But clearly if they forgot to pay it for four month (and they had the ability to do so) then the bishop is right to be concerned about how quickly they forgot their commitments.  It can understandably give the bishop doubts on if they are truly ready. 

 

It's totally different situation from someone whose personal situation calls for paying tithing once a year or very six months or every quarter.  Its also different from an individual who has been paying with every paycheck for years forgetting for four months and then catching up.

 

That to me seems like a lot of inference based on a very limited amount of information.  The bottom line is that Bishops are most definitely men called of God, but they are human, not perfect and are subject to many errors.  The Bishop might be 100% correct as he obviously has more information on the situation than what is presented on a message board.  But then again he might be a little over-zealous.

 

You clearly state paying in lump sum is not wrong and that it is a personal situation . . . . denying someone a temple recommend over whether they pay monthly or quarterly is IMO a little ticky-tacky; the important point is at the end of the year at tithing settlement are they full tithe-payers and at the temple interview are they full-tithe payers.

 

 

My position is based on every bishop I have ever met and the OP's stated subject of trying to get to the temple...  While I fully accept that I don't know every bishop every where, I used my head in answering the question 'How does the bishop know?' With the the most easy and sensible answer of that 'they told him.'  Simple logic really. Bishops have way to much to do then to personally track every members tithing payments every Sunday.

 

If one can already go to the temple then they have no need to talk to the bishop, and they will only discuss tithing at tithing settlement or recommend renewal.  But if one wishes to go to the temple but don't currently have a recommend they have to go to the bishop.  The bishop interviews them and finds they have an issue with tithing and sets the path and goal posts for tithing. That is exactly what he is called to do.  Then he follows up with them to see how they are doing and adjust what they need to do accordingly.  This could very well (and most likely) means that he asks them.  From the OP's posts this is what I think the most simple and likely course of events where leading up to this.  It makes a whole lot more sense then the idea that the bishop is monitoring everyone and then pulling in the OP and taking away the recommend because they did not pay for four months

 

Now when the bishop followed up and found out about the four months all at once he made the call that it wasn't good enough.  Why did he make that call???  We don't know.  That is speculative.  We could speculate that the bishop messed up or got it wrong.  Or we could speculate that the bishop knows the OP much better then we ever could and made the call he felt was necessary.  Of these two possibilities I find the later to be less judgmental of all the people involved and less likely that I am inferring things in without basis of information the OP gave us.

 

The only reason for a bishop to say pay tithing for six months is if there was a history of non-paying

[Leah]

Full stop.  By amandaandchris's account "He told us in January that we have to be current in our tithing for 6 months. He didn't say that it had to be consecutively monthly payments. But I took him our 4 months of tithing, in separate enverlopes, and he said it doesn't count. We have faithfully pulled tithing out of every paycheck. We just hadn't brought it to the church.  Told us we have to wait another 6 months".

 

Unless a&c told the Bishop they were not full-tithe payers how else is the Bishop going to know unless he checks?  This doesn't sound too much like an account of someone who doesn't want to pay tithing, it could be if the actual account is a little different, but based on what is written it seems like it is a big miscommunication and the Bishop wants them to pay monthly before getting a recommend, which IMO is a little overboard based on the information available.

 

 

After talking and understanding what this family situation and history has set the bar of six months of tithing payment so they can get recommends.  This is both understandable and a reasonable expectation from the bishop for these individuals.  Then while working with the bishop the OP forgets to pay tithing for four months and then pays it in a lump sum.  Paying in a lump sum is not wrong.  But clearly if they forgot to pay it for four month (and they had the ability to do so) then the bishop is right to be concerned about how quickly they forgot their commitments.  It can understandably give the bishop doubts on if they are truly ready. 

 

It's totally different situation from someone whose personal situation calls for paying tithing once a year or very six months or every quarter.  Its also different from an individual who has been paying with every paycheck for years forgetting for four months and then catching up.

 

That to me seems like a lot of inference based on a very limited amount of information.  The bottom line is that Bishops are most definitely men called of God, but they are human, not perfect and are subject to many errors.  The Bishop might be 100% correct as he obviously has more information on the situation than what is presented on a message board.  But then again he might be a little over-zealous.

 

You clearly state paying in lump sum is not wrong and that it is a personal situation . . . . denying someone a temple recommend over whether they pay monthly or quarterly is IMO a little ticky-tacky; the important point is at the end of the year at tithing settlement are they full tithe-payers and at the temple interview are they full-tithe payers.

I don't think the issue is at all about quarterly or monthly tithe-paying. I think the bishop is looking for a commitment to tithe paying that he hasn't yet seen. It also had not been six months yet.

And it's probably not the only kind of commitment he is looking for.

As for your earlier comments about "buying" one's way into the temple, I can't even describe out offensive that is.

[yjacket]

As for your earlier comments about "buying" one's way into the temple, I can't even describe out offensive that is.

 

My apologies, I was responding to someone else's comment about "buying" into the temple, I did not bring it up.  

 

My point being that if someone really wanted to go to the temple to see what it is about just to do it they could fake it, become a member, wait a year, pay tithing (or claim they pay tithing) and go.  To them they might be "buying" their way in.  It wouldn't surprise me if that has happened several times, but my belief is that more likely than not it will not occur, i.e.  by the time someone has put for the effort to be a member for a year etc. it actually becomes something meaningful and I would never consider paying tithing as a way of "buying" in, others might, but I would not.