What is the answer to a sexless Marriage

[MrShorty]

WhatdoIdo: You won't get any argument from me that we don't use the term "bridle" correctly in this context. My observation has been that our usual use looks like "bridle" = "control" = "abstain" in these contexts. As you note, this does not translate at all into marriage. I personally have chosen to simply break the connection in my own mind between "bridle" and "abstain" so that I can see bridling more in terms of growing and developing sexuality rather than repressing and abstaining. I am certainly not opposed to finding a different term or concept for what is supposed to be happening in marriage.

[The Folk Prophet]

I really don't like using the term "bridling" when discussed in the context of marriage. For those who may be unfamiliar, the term is derived from Alma 38:12 where Alma gives advice to one of his more faithful sons, Shiblon.  Shiblon is advised to "bridle all your passions, that ye may be filled with love."  

 

Usually in gospel discussions, this is used as an instruction to young men and young women to "bridle" (or keep under control) their passions until they are married.  Youth will have sexual passions and desires as God-given traits, but need to learn to keep those passions under control until they can and should be used within the boundaries the Lord has set (aka. marriage).

 

The idea of "bridling" passion within marriage seems to imply that those passions are somehow wrong or sinful and thereby need to be controlled.  Is it wrong or sinful to want my wife to give me sexual pleasure?  Certainly not.  If there is anything I have taken away from Sis Brotherson's book is that those passions are from God and within the boundaries of marriage, can and should be used as an expression of love and oneness.  It is within marriage that those passions should be openly and freely expressed (i.e. "unbridled"), provided both partners agree and one partner isn't being (or feeling) cooerced, degraded, etc.  

 

I think that there is still a clear and distinct level of "bridling  passion" that must needs occur even within marriage. I absolutely agree with you that it is not meant to limit the enjoyment of marital relations though. It is meant to limit abuse, improper thoughts, degradation, etc., and to maintain control.

 

Bridling passion does not mean to restrain it. It means to control it. A bridle controls. Even with a bridle on, a horse can still run full speed when guided to do so. Restraint is a part of control. It is not synonymous with it.

 

This remains true even before marriage. We are not meant to feel no passion. We are meant to control our passions according to the dictates of the Lord's law and standards.

[MrShorty]

Bridling passion does not mean to restrain it. It means to control it. A bridle controls. Even with a bridle on, a horse can still run full speed when guided to do so. Restraint is a part of control. It is not synonymous with it.

I think that a forgotten aspect of this is the part where you kick your heels, slap its rump, or whatever your favorite method is of communicating "get moving" to the horse. So much of our dialog around sex is about trying not to do (or not to do too much of) something, that we neglect to talk about the importance in some cases of "awakening" sexuality even though some of us don't feel as much natural urge.

[The Folk Prophet]

I think that a forgotten aspect of this is the part where you kick your heels, slap its rump, or whatever your favorite method is of communicating "get moving" to the horse. So much of our dialog around sex is about trying not to do (or not to do too much of) something, that we neglect to talk about the importance in some cases of "awakening" sexuality even though some of us don't feel as much natural urge.

 

Wait...did we just move into a dialogue about slapping rumps? Is that allowed? 

[MrShorty]

Wait...did we just move into a dialogue about slapping rumps? Is that allowed? 

Where's the laugh button when you need it? I guess I inadvertently set that one up pretty well.

[WhatDoIDo]

Wait...did we just move into a dialogue about slapping rumps? Is that allowed? 

 

My goodness, I needed a good laugh today.  

 

In this context, what's a man gotta do to get his wife to "Giddy up!"?  

 

The short answer is to find her "love language" and fill her love tank.  But what if that doesn't seem to make a difference?  

[mdfxdb]

I would disagree with the statement that you are asking her to change fundamentally.  It has been my experience that as a whole most people do not change.  To ask her to change would be unsuccessful at best. 

 

I do think she needs to modify her behavior to come into line with your expectations.  She may not desire sex more than once a month, but her husband does.  She therefore needs to modify her behavior to satisfy her husband.  If as you say she is completely satisfied with each encounter then she has no downside to the experience.

[WhatDoIDo]

I do think she needs to modify her behavior to come into line with your expectations.  She may not desire sex more than once a month, but her husband does.  She therefore needs to modify her behavior to satisfy her husband.  If as you say she is completely satisfied with each encounter then she has no downside to the experience.

 

I'm not looking for submission.  She shouldn't do it just because I'm asking it.  Otherwise, she'll end up resenting me for making her do something she doesn't want to do.  

 

I think the point that MrShorty was trying to make is that generally couples need to meet somewhere in the middle.  Her sexuality may need to be awakened and mine may need to be reigned in (though I don't think my current expectations are unreasonable at all).  

 

But how do I awaken that desire so that she'll engage because she wants to, not out of duty, obligation or submission.  The most frustrating part is that she is satisfied in probably 98% of our encounters.  That being the case, I would think that alone would be enough to awaken the desire for more, but that isn't the case. 

[MrShorty]

The short answer is to find her "love language" and fill her love tank.  But what if that doesn't seem to make a difference?

I wish I had a better answer than this, but this is the only answer I have come across, too. Keep loving her, keep telling her that you want a stronger sexual relationship, take note of the things Dr. Gottman talks about to make sure this perpetual problem does not descend into gridlock. Somewhere along the line, it has to come from her. She has to make a choice to "awaken" her sexuality and engage with you. One of the toughest things about marriage (part of why I think Dr. Schnarch emphasizes the idea of "differentiation" so much) is that you cannot make your spouse want or do anything.

 

A couple of years ago, I had what to me seemed a significant observation. A good many (most? all?) of those things we say to do to "fill her love tank" (help with housework, be positive to her, take her out, get her little gifts, etc.) are also the same suggestions you can find if you google "how to be a good roommate". I can't speak for others, but in that realization, I felt like God was calling me to be a good roommate, and let Him take care of the rest. I don't know if it really right or not, but it has not hurt my marriage to be a good roommate. I still have hope that something fundamental will change in the marriage bed, but who knows if or when.

[mdfxdb]

I'm not looking for submission.  She shouldn't do it just because I'm asking it.  Otherwise, she'll end up resenting me for making her do something she doesn't want to do.  

 

I think the point that MrShorty was trying to make is that generally couples need to meet somewhere in the middle.  Her sexuality may need to be awakened and mine may need to be reigned in (though I don't think my current expectations are unreasonable at all).  

 

But how do I awaken that desire so that she'll engage because she wants to, not out of duty, obligation or submission.  The most frustrating part is that she is satisfied in probably 98% of our encounters.  That being the case, I would think that alone would be enough to awaken the desire for more, but that isn't the case. 

But that's my point.  She should do it because you are asking, unless you are being unreasonable.  I do lots of things I don't "want" to do, but they need to be done.  Sometimes it's out of a feeling of obligation, sometimes it's out of need.  This isn't about her or her sexual needs.  From what you are describing she is completely satisfied, and that's enough....FOR HER. 

 

Unless you are a total brute (are you a total brute?) she should want/need/feel obligated to do this with you regardless of her actual drive/desire/satisfaction level.  It is part of a healthy normal marriage, and a physical manifestation of love.

 

You can't make her change.  She likely will not change.  She can decide to behave in a different way, and this may or may not have an effect on her sexual desire.  She needs to understand this is not about her, but about the relationship, and it's continuity.  Have you said that to her?  Oh, don't say that to her unless you mean it.  

 

If you are not going to put a nuclear option on the table then you have to learn to deal with what you have.  Keep in mind she will likely never change.  How are you going to deal with that now?  How are you going to deal with that for eternity?  I suspect there are many other areas in your marriage where she is very selfish as well, this just happens to be the one that hurts the most.

[Guest]

I'm not looking for submission.  She shouldn't do it just because I'm asking it.  Otherwise, she'll end up resenting me for making her do something she doesn't want to do.  

 

I think the point that MrShorty was trying to make is that generally couples need to meet somewhere in the middle.  Her sexuality may need to be awakened and mine may need to be reigned in (though I don't think my current expectations are unreasonable at all).  

 

But how do I awaken that desire so that she'll engage because she wants to, not out of duty, obligation or submission.  The most frustrating part is that she is satisfied in probably 98% of our encounters.  That being the case, I would think that alone would be enough to awaken the desire for more, but that isn't the case. 

 

I got a newsflash for you... there's a reason you hear them say the woman "faked" it.  Because yes, women have the tendency to fake it to please the husband.  That doesn't mean we are simply doing it out of obligation.  It means we want to please our husbands and for some reason, husbands think that if we don't make a certain response, we are not liking what's going on.

 

Some of us (that would be your wife, I think) are not physically responsive.  We are emotionally responsive.  An outpouring of love for our husband does not always equate a physical release.  We can be love-satisfied just sitting on the couch watching the husband do dishes... So, you do dishes even if you're not in the mood for it because you want to please your wife and we do the bedroom thing even if we're not in the mood for it to please our husbands...

 

Honestly in marriage is when I don't have to fake it.  I can just tell my husband I am completely feeling all the love and he is free to reach whatever zone he needs and be completely happy that our relationship is solid.

[WhatDoIDo]

I can tell you without reservation she's not faking anything.  

 

But for the sake of discussion, let's assume for a minute she is in fact faking.  I've had several (probably 20+) discussions with her regarding whether I'm meeting her needs in the bedroom.  My thought process was that perhaps I'm not meeting her needs there and if I started meet her needs there, she might be more willing to meet my needs.  I've point blank asked her if she's ever faked or felt the need to fake.  She has told me repeatedly she has never done either and is completely satisfied in that department.  So if she is faking, then she's been lying to me for 10 years, which is an even bigger problem, in my opinion.

 

I've also repeatedly asked her if I'm meeting her needs in the other areas (helping around the house, emotionally, being loving/attentive, offering kind words, courting her, all the love languages).  Again with the idea that if I'm not meeting her needs in one area, I can start to and she might be more willing to meet my needs.  Again she's repeatedly told me she's satisfied in the other areas.  So she is either being honest and she is satisfied or she's been lying to me for 10 years.  

 

Edit:  I would probably be satisfied if she did as you say and tells me she's feeling all the love and I'm free to reach whatever zone I need.  Though admittedly, it would make me feel a little guilty getting it without giving it back.  But she doesn't do this.  She constantly rebuffs any of my advances when she's not feeling it.  

[mdfxdb]

So, given that she rebuffs your advances, she needs to be put on notice of the detrimental effect this is having on you and on the relationship.  It sounds like she is living in a vacuum of consequences.  She wants what she wants when she wants it, and doesn't care what you want if it doesn't coincide.  

 

If I had to be "in the mood" to do most of my stuff: go to work, clean, bathe, change the oil in the car.........none of it would get done......oh, and there would be very real consequences.........  

[The Folk Prophet]

If I had to be "in the mood" to ... bathe ... there would be very real consequences.........  

 

I can personally attest to this.

[Guest]

Edit:  I would probably be satisfied if she did as you say and tells me she's feeling all the love and I'm free to reach whatever zone I need.  Though admittedly, it would make me feel a little guilty getting it without giving it back.  But she doesn't do this.  She constantly rebuffs any of my advances when she's not feeling it.  

 

I didn't say she faked it.  I implied - if she gives you what you want when she doesn't want, then she'll have to fake it.  Which women do in that situation.  She opts to just say No because - well, maybe she doesn't know it's okay to just fake it.

 

See, the way I see it, there may be a good thing at the foundation of this problem.  Sex is merely an expression of love.  It is not self-focused.  It is outside-focused.  Love flows as an expression from you to your spouse, not demanded from your spouse to you.  The problem is not a lack of love.  The problem is the expression of it.  You are not having sex because you don't want to demand love from her to you and she doesn't express love from her to you in that manner.  So, underneath the problem is the good understanding of what sex is for.

 

So, if I'm correct on that one, then the solution is to find a way to make her feel that sex is something she gives to you - it doesn't have to flow back to her in that manner because she should feel loved in other ways.  So she does the physical stuff because she loves you and she knows it makes you happy.  In the meantime, you concentrate on expressing love to her instead of just "getting off".  Somewhere in those two extremes lie the perfect balance in your own unique Christ-centered marriage.

[MrShorty]

Anatess, I think you are touching on a problem I have seen in other men (not sure if WhatdoIdo is in this category or not). Some men do get rather stubborn about insisting that their wife should experience sexual desire the same way he does -- "strong and constant" desire (to borrow a phrase from Elder Packer), spontaneous desire, that "I've got to have you now" feeling. Reality seems to be that each gender (and, arguably each individual) experiences sex, desire, libido, etc. differently. And it is not very helpful to expect or insist that your spouse will experience sex the same way you do. What you seem to be describing I expect is a common and a good way to approach it -- approaching sex out of generosity for your spouse is a good thing.

 

From the point of view of someone like WhatdoIdo, how do we get our wives to be more generous in this regard? How do we get our wives to realize, like Anatess has already learned, that generosity in the marriage bed is allowed, is proper, is often necessary (without, at the same time, coming across as selfish, oversexed pigs)?

[mdfxdb]

I would say they need to learn to be unselfish.  What happens in the bedroom, or doesn't happen is many times a manifestation of what is happening in the relationship.  Like I previously stated.  There are probably other problems, or manifestations of selfishness in the relationship, this just happens to be the one that hurts the most...

[Guest]

Anatess, I think you are touching on a problem I have seen in other men (not sure if WhatdoIdo is in this category or not). Some men do get rather stubborn about insisting that their wife should experience sexual desire the same way he does -- "strong and constant" desire (to borrow a phrase from Elder Packer), spontaneous desire, that "I've got to have you now" feeling. Reality seems to be that each gender (and, arguably each individual) experiences sex, desire, libido, etc. differently. And it is not very helpful to expect or insist that your spouse will experience sex the same way you do. What you seem to be describing I expect is a common and a good way to approach it -- approaching sex out of generosity for your spouse is a good thing.

 

From the point of view of someone like WhatdoIdo, how do we get our wives to be more generous in this regard? How do we get our wives to realize, like Anatess has already learned, that generosity in the marriage bed is allowed, is proper, is often necessary (without, at the same time, coming across as selfish, oversexed pigs)?

 

It's very easy for me because my husband is a what-you-see-is-what-you-get kind of dude.  I don't have to "read his love language" or whatever.  I know what he wants in life because... 1.) he's getting it, 2.) he tells me he wants it.  I don't have to guess.  He loves football.  I know that because I can cry and whine and guilt him into spending time with me instead of watching this bowl and that bowl... and he just looks at me and says, I'll spend time with you after the game.  It's not that football is more important than me.  It's that he is confident that I'm smart enough to realize I'm being an idiot when I know he loves me very much without having to give up football.  So, I sit down and watch football.  I don't like football - I think it's a stupid game.  But, I do like digging out background stories of the football players so that I have favorite players that I cheer on... not because I like football, but because I like seeing a good guy succeed.  And, if there's really nothing that gets my interest in that game, I go do something else... like get a pedicure... or just sit next to my husband on the couch reading a book.  Whatever.

 

So what does this have to do with sex?  Everything.  My husband likes sex the same way he likes football.  I know because not only does he tell me, I see it with plain eyes (we have two kids, duh, of course I've seen it).  So, I can either go "watch football", "get a pedicure (in which case he's not getting any football)", or "just sit on the couch reading".  Either way, he's fine with it.  I love my husband.  I want to make him happy.  When he's happy I'm happy.  See, that's the thing - he doesn't need to do anything for me to be happy.  All he has to be is be happy and I'm happy with that.  So you might wonder... well, that just sucks, because then if what makes him happy is "watch football without you", you're out-of-luck... and I'm like... sure.  But then, if I'd known that, I wouldn't have married the dude.  But since I chose to marry him, I know cheating on me is not real happiness.  Because, being one with CHRIST is happiness.  So, I just have to figure out how to get him to realize it.

 

But then, that's me.  All people have different ways...

[MrShorty]

mdfxdb: In essence I would agree with you -- the key is to learn to be unselfish. In some ways, though, this also seems circular -- "the key to learning to be generous is learning to be unselfish".

 

I also agree that, sometimes, this kind of selfishness can be symptomatic of selfishness elsewhere in the marriage. I also sometimes think that there are special considerations in the sexual relationship. I recall lessons (and I have seen discussions here on lds.net) where the message presented is "SEX and sexual desire (outside of marriage, if marital status is even mentioned) are inherently, unavoidably, and universally selfish acts/desires." When that message gets carried into marriage, it creates a challenge to the simple "be less selfish" message.

 

Paul Byerly on his blog recently explained it this way: "Our culture has taught her men are obsessed with and totally selfish about sex...You will do anything to get more sex than you need, and it is her job to limit you to something reasonable...Your gender makes it impossible for you to tell the truth about sex!" (http://www.the-generous-husband.com/2014/06/07/is-she-good-willed-in-bed/).

 

In short, while I agree that the key is selflessness, I think our discussion of selflessness as it applies to the marriage bed sometimes needs more detail to overcome some of these misperceptions of how sexuality and selfishness are related.

[Guest]

In short, while I agree that the key is selflessness, I think our discussion of selflessness as it applies to the marriage bed sometimes needs more detail to overcome some of these misperceptions of how sexuality and selfishness are related.

 

I'll make it even shorter.  If you're doing it for you instead of to express love to your spouse, you're being selfish.  Period.

[The Folk Prophet]

I'll make it even shorter.  If you're doing it for you instead of to express love to your spouse, you're being selfish.  Period.

 

That doesn't make any sense.

 

The rule is to keep your passions within the bounds the Lord sets. Those bounds are legal and lawful marriage, not only if you're expressing love.

 

There is nothing wrong with engaging in proper and "lawful" behavior to fulfill desire. My wife can ask me to give her a back rub "for her" because she really wants a back rub and it feels good and not because she's expressing love. Likewise a husband can desire marital relations.

[honeybee]

President Kimball said sex is the main reason people divorce, even though they may not say that to anyone.  You absolutely must do the things you said you aren't doing!  They matter!!!  And remember what she says to you!

[drham3rd]

From my experience of a 33 yr marriage that failed, one thing to think about is that you can do everything you can to support her and fully service her needs BUT if she is unwilling to reciprocate, then it makes for a difficult relationship.  I mistaking thought that I could make everything right by doing everything for her, I did all the cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc.  But, I have now realized that I was becoming a slave to her..so be careful about how you approach the issue of service to your spouse! 

[believingisachoice]

Newbie I'm sorry to hear about your situation, that must be incredibly tough. First did you talk about consequences of weight gain in courtship? If so then you need to lose weight for your wife.

 

Why do not read scriptures and say prayers? Stange how you have a temple recommend when you don't do the basics. But women want a man to lead the family in spiritual matters, if you cannot provide that then that is already another reason why she is emotionally withdrawn.

 

You live a function marriage. Each person has a job. You know what you need to do to fix it. It will be up to whether you make the nesacary changes to keep your family together. If you change you will be fine. Good luck.

[Misshalfway]

I'm really sorry this is happening to you, OP.  It's so hard to offer advice on this without really hearing what your wife feels but, it does sounds like she is pretty good at defenses like dismissing the problem or blaming you or making you jump through hoops to pacify or buy her time.  I couldn't know, but it sounds to me like there is underlying issues for sure and my guess is they are emotional in nature.  And I'm sorry all your efforts to diagnose things have proved so fruitless and frustrating.

 

I will say that, in general, I don't think women really understand what its like for husbands to not get sex.  I don't think we understand what if feels like to get turned down and how hard it is to feel close and safe in the relationship without it, and how hard it is to navigate a woman who is always a moving target.  

 

Perhaps on the flip side men struggle to understand women too, but in the Mormon culture, I worry that women see male sex drive as something unbridled or lustful or selfish.   And therefore, it's something that is easily dismissed.  I wonder if, because of our lack of education/understanding about sex that women feel somehow triggered when they see a husband aroused and hungry for sex.  As if it means that the man only wants sex and doesn't love them or value them.  And that if she gives in she'll only be an object of lust and somehow be used in the transaction.  It makes sense to me that if a person feels objectified they are not going to feel safe and are probably going to shut down to protect themselves.  I can't know if this bears any relevance whatsoever to your wife's sexual reluctance, but I offer it anyway.

 

 

I do want to say I believe that the best sex grows in emotional safety.  Something that may be a newer idea in an age where "good sex" comes from "turning each other on".  Not that using human attractions to sex is wrong or bad, it's just that pleasing and placating behaviors, even if they come from a loving place, are actually distancing behaviors.  So, what's meant as  a method of connecting two people actually ends up separating them.  And, as most of us know,  real intimacy and emotional safety only happens when both parties are real, vulnerable, open, and present.  If one is using vacuuming as a way to communicate all their deepest emotional longings....well, chances are the message will not get through.  And maybe something else will get communicated.  Like, "Hey, I really only want sex.  I 'm not really thinking about you and how I'm longing to be close to you.  I'm thinking about how I can get what I need the fastest.  So see the cleaned dishes?  I did the right thing, can you put out?"  I mean it's not like women are cold drink dispensers.  Put in the right quarter and she'll "turn on" for you.  You know?  And it's not like talking about marital duty is the best aphrodisiac.  If you are going there, you might as well say, "Brace yourself, Effie!"

 

I don't know what's going on with your wife.  Maybe sex is painful.  Maybe her hormones are off.  Maybe she doesn't feel loved or cherished or pretty anymore.  Maybe she has a secret wish to be a nun. I don't know.

 

What I do think I heard, was that she tries to tell you her pain and she didn't get heard.  Like when she talked about how hard it is to be left home with kids and housework.  And how you may have dismissed her or defended yourself by saying work isn't exactly easy either.  What I see there is that her emotional needs are being dismissed, much like your sexual needs are being dismissed.  The responsiveness, the warmth, the soft place to fall stuff is all missing.  I mean, maybe when she asks for you to help with the house, she really just needs you to see what she's going through and to feel like she's not alone in carrying the weight of raising kids.  She needs you to take out trash, yes that's helpful...but she really needs your empathy, your responsive and insightful support, and she needs YOU to fill the void.  Clean dishes can't do that.  You see?

 

Hope i've offered something helpful.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Misshalfway