The life path of conservative thinking


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I don't know if my thread title is really what I mean it to mean..but....

 

So, PC posted something in another thread about being "old-fashioned, intolerant, and narrow minded." It got me thinking about conservatism, particularly morally (not necessarily politically) speaking.

 

I was raised in a conservative home. One might even call it ultra-conservative. BYU loving, Utah Valley, green jello mormonism. (I never got the green jello thing. Never made it. Never ate it. Never really even saw it. So maybe that undercuts my claim...but......)

 

In my home we were modest. We did not swear (even if we had thought to my mother's wrath would have prevented it). We did not date until 16 (if then...yeah...I was a bit of a social nerd too). Did not watch R-rated movies (PG-13 wasn't around back then...so I'm not sure what the stand would have been. I have a sister who refuses to watch them even as an adult though.) We had be be home by 5:00 every day for dinner (and could not go back out again). We had family home evening every week. We were not even allowed to listen to pop/rock music.

 

Accordingly, I am conservative. Ultra conservative, one might say.

 

However, I have always been more liberal than my parents. For example, when I hit my teenage years I rebelled against the no rock music thing. I introduced Michael Jackson to our peaceful home. The horror. Even worse, I later brought in Metallica. As you can imagine, my mother was not happy about it. I retained my conservative leanings overall, stayed active, went on a mission, etc., but was definitely more liberal than how I was raised.

 

Until recently.

 

Okay, in some ways I may still be more liberal than my parents, and that is cultural and generational. But in some ways I have actually become more conservative than them. I find myself in conversation with them nowadays and I find myself taking the more conservative stance. It's been fascinating and surprising. I clearly see this to be a phenomenon of my changing too...meaning to say that my parents are not more liberal than they used to be (though they are a lot more chill about being conservative than they once were). No. It's me that's changed. As the years pass I get more and more conservative. And I don't even have children yet (side note: fertility issues...we're seeking treatment...hopefully soon.....) I can imagine that having children will increase my conservationism even more.

 

So, anyhow. I was wondering where you see yourselves on this life-path. State of rebellion? Constantly more liberal? Getting more conservative through the years? Etc., etc.

 

As it's relevant I suppose the discussion might include (for those wiling) ages. I'm currently 42.

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One can't really be "all conservative" or "all liberal".  Both principles have a valid application in all facets of life.

 

Let me define these terms because I know America uses these a lot of times as political party agendas instead of its basic definition.

Liberal - Individual Liberty trumps Societal tradition, culture, mores.

Conservative - Societal tradition, culture, mores trump the Individual.

 

As a child, it is normal to be more liberal.  The Society of the child is the nuclear family.  A child's natural inclination is to stretch the family tradition, culture, and moral boundaries until he gets comfortable in his own skin.

 

As a parent, it is normal to be more conservative.  The Society of the parent is the nuclear family.  A parents' natural inclination is to define the family tradition, culture, and moral boundaries and polices the family to stay within these boundaries.

 

In this Society - I was more liberal than conservative as a kid (I was a rebel child), I'm now conservative as a parent (I get upset with rebel children).  But, I still have my liberal streak in that I encourage my kids to appeal to change the boundaries that they feel is not working for them - but, they have to have very good reasoning skills (our traditional family line - "If you're going to argue with your mom, make sure you can express yourself in a clear, concise, and logical manner.  Whining won't get you anywhere.")

 

But, when you expand that Society, it is not as black and white.

 

In America in general, the State is the Society.  It is how it is designed at the founding of the Constitution.  Therefore, conservatives impose rules and regulations at the State level to set the boundaries of the Society and police its citizens to abide by it.  Liberals who want to stretch the boundaries and fail to appeal to the State goes to the Federal government to "unfeter" them from the State.

 

In this set up of American society, I am conservative when it comes to family laws and economic laws.  I am liberal in others like drug enforcement, medical practice, etc.

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Let me define these terms because I know America uses these a lot of times as political party agendas instead of its basic definition.

Liberal - Individual Liberty trumps Societal tradition, culture, mores.

Conservative - Societal tradition, culture, mores trump the Individual.

 

I appreciated your response. But to be clear as to my intent, I specifically mean moral conservatism and liberalism. Sometimes moral conservatism/liberalism crosses into the political. Sometimes it does not. I can't say my political view has changed much at all. But I am definitely less likely to let a movie into my home that expresses questionable standards, for example. Whether laws should control the creation of said movies...????

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I find this one difficult to answer. I'm not sure how to view conservatism morally (or liberalism for that matter). The key trouble I have is that I see morality as black and white, right and wrong, but conservatism or liberalism are not black and white, right or wrong. I view things as immoral or moral.  I generally see being conservative as being responsible, sustainable, careful etc., and liberalism as taking risks, trying new things.

 

With these definitions in mind I definitely have a tendency toward being more conservative. I'm a "play it safe" kinda guy. I suppose if anything I am becoming more so as i age. Largely, I think, because I needed to take more risks in my youth to gain experiences to put everything in context. Now I have my opinions and I am more set in my ways. That being said I am always actively studying all kinds of things and I am open to the perspectives of others. I just get tired of being called closed minded because my opinions don't always fit within someone else's narrow point of view. After all, when I have taken the time to search things out and drawn a conclusion, why is this closed minded?

 

By my interpretation of the definitions given by anatess I'm actually more morally liberal as I age because the societal traditions around me at large are more and more corrupt. I'm more concerned with my own ability to make decisions for myself and not having society collectively decide what is and is not acceptable.

 

For what it's worth I'm 30 and have no kids yet either... also hoping that changes soon.

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At 25, my ideas and beliefs haven't changed much, though I have come to understand more around me.
Growing up my parents were a mix of conservative and liberal.

There was never any real rules on what we could watch (though as young kids my parents really disliked vulgarity, but didn't really mind nudity, though violence did bother them, which I think is a common belief Europeans have)
No rules on when to date, though I never got any dates so it didn't matter lol

I am obviously more liberal then conservative, and don't see that ever changing. I do share some beliefs of my parents but there are things we disagree with, I am my own person.

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By my interpretation of the definitions given by anatess I'm actually more morally liberal as I age because the societal traditions around me at large are more and more corrupt. I'm more concerned with my own ability to make decisions for myself and not having society collectively decide what is and is not acceptable.

 

This is fascinating. If we look at liberalism as opposition to cultural tradition then eventually the new liberalism becomes the old conservatism and what was once old conservatism could now be new liberalism.

 

That being said, I reject those definitions. :) 

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and if it should happen I will fully admit I was wrong. With anything, I don't have any issue with pride. Being proven wrong is how one learns, and I always seek knowledge.

But I am being truthful, in my current state of mind, I don't see that changing. What am I supposed to say? That one day I could embrace a belief totally alien to what I believe now?
Personally I just don't see that happening, I donno. Just doesn't seem plausible.

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What am I supposed to say? That one day I could embrace a belief totally alien to what I believe now?

 

I would hope that you would open your mind up ever so slightly so as to be able to see and admit exactly that. Your consistent repetition of the I'll-never-change mantra implies stubbornness. And, I believe, holding such an attitude limits one's potential growth.

 

You're certainly entitled to believe as you would. This is my thoughts on it though -- for what they're worth. :)

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I would hope that you would open your mind up ever so slightly so as to be able to see and admit exactly that. Your consistent repetition of the I'll-never-change mantra implies stubbornness. And, I believe, holding such an attitude limits one's potential growth.

 

You're certainly entitled to believe as you would. This is my thoughts on it though -- for what they're worth. :)

 

I am always open to new ideas, I would never shut myself off to them, that is why I am here, really. (And to make sure you all don't get to used to normality lol)

I know I can be stubborn, but even my stubborness can't ignore facts and truth and all that. And really who knows what the future will bring, I like to feel confident I know myself in and out but the future can bring things I have not thought of.

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It is with great surprise that I find myself saying a lot of things that Archie Bunker would have said. I was a lib back then and thought he was racist (he might have been), not hip, and certainly not right thinking (liberal).

 

I belonged to the Socialist Workers Party for a while in college. One thing it taught me was that white people complain a lot. They have all the privilege in this society, but they still whine if life's not perfect for them. I realized that my step-father had come from nothing (and no big student loans back then) to be a lawyer, my other relatives had dealt with segregation and restricted access to education to become teachers and leaders in education. I just couldn't sit back and moan when I saw other people had taken life by the reins and improved themselves. I left the Socialists and voted Democrat, mostly because I'd heard all Republicans were racists.

 

Years pass and I grow up. I get a law degree. I see how the world really works. I start noticing that I'm working like a dog and some welfare princess is walking up and down Market St shopping on my dime. What's wrong with this picture? I became a small 'l' libertarian, but I'd vote big 'L' sometimes. When Clinton was elected, I didn't vote for him, but was excited to see what someone from my generation was going to do in office (answer: not much).

 

I wind up working in a building with limited radio reception. The only station I could get was the talk station, which was OK, but then Rush Limbaugh came into the market. I had heard terrible things about him, but I was a talk show junkie and started listening to him. Like a lot of his listeners, I realized that I was thinking the same way. It wasn't 'I agree with Rush,' but, 'someone is finally saying what I think.'  When I had my own law firm and had to pay taxes, etc. I really changed politcally.  I voted for George W and prayed for his election. This is the only politician I have ever prayed for. I joined a conservative website where I am still active and have thousands of posts.

 

I'm very conservative, more so than many of the candidates put up by the Republican Party. But I'm also a child of the 60's/70's and some things just don't bother me. I don't care about marijuana. I don't care too much about gay marriage (I do care about what school kids are taught about sexuality, tho). I don't care about casinos or online gambling. I will watch what movies I want to watch and listen to the music I want to hear. I am a lapsed feminist and do care about the role of women, but am OK with not having women in the priesthood. 

 

I could never be a lib again. Kennedy's type of liberalism and Democratic Party are long gone. What we have are socialists at best and racists and communists at worse (if you don't think liberalism fosters racism, take a good look at the types of legislation libs are for and against. Few political movements have destroyed a people the way liberal Democratic politics have destroyed the black family.)   I fear the loss of our American culture and the middle class.

 

It's been a "long strange trip," for sure. I don't think my 25 yr old self would recognize me now.

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This is fascinating. If we look at liberalism as opposition to cultural tradition then eventually the new liberalism becomes the old conservatism and what was once old conservatism could now be new liberalism.

 

That being said, I reject those definitions. :) 

 Just for curiosity, what definitions do you go by?

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 Just for curiosity, what definitions do you go by?

 

I guess I'd have to say...I usually try to go by the dictionary. :) Heheh. Let's see (posted below)... With conservative I'm definately meaning #2 (with a bit of #3 I suppose), and with liberal I go with #4 and #5 I guess. Hmm.

 

*shrug*

 

Specific to this thread, however, I do not mean anything to do with politics at all. I mean what PC originally referred to, being "old-fashioned, intolerant, and narrow-minded". I'm talking about how I am more reserved. Less likely to allow anything potentially spiritual harmful into my life. More in sync with stringent and even sometimes harsh philosophies of obedience, discipline, and general straight-and-narrow thinking. Straight-laced. Up-tight. Strict. Etc.

________________

con·serv·a·tive  [kuhthinsp.pngthinsp.pngn-sur-vuh-tiv]  Show IPA
adjective
1.
disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.
2.
cautiously moderate or purposefully low: a conservative estimate.
3.
traditional in style or manner; avoiding novelty or showiness: conservative suit.
4.
often initial capital letter of or pertaining to the Conservative party.
5.
initial capital letter of, pertaining to, or characteristic of Conservative Jews or Conservative Judaism.

 

lib·er·al  [lib-er-uhthinsp.pngthinsp.pngl, lib-ruhthinsp.pngthinsp.pngl]  Show IPA
adjective
1.
favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.
2.
often initial capital letter noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.
3.
of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalismespecially the freedom of the individual and governmental guarantees of individual rights and liberties.
4.
favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.
5.
favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expressiona liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers.
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I dont mind political shows or artilcles....I can't stand it when it gets brought up in Sunday School or other classes. It really bugs me when one member will say....I dont see how you can be a ......... and be a member of the church. I like to respond with...You know we have General Authorities on both sides of the Political aisle.

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Specific to this thread, however, I do not mean anything to do with politics at all. I mean what PC originally referred to, being "old-fashioned, intolerant, and narrow-minded". I'm talking about how I am more reserved. Less likely to allow anything potentially spiritual harmful into my life. More in sync with stringent and even sometimes harsh philosophies of obedience, discipline, and general straight-and-narrow thinking. Straight-laced. Up-tight. Strict. Etc.

 

Gotcha.

 

So would it be safe to say what you're really asking is if we are becoming more crotchety as we age?  :lol:

 

I suppose in all honesty I'd only use the word crotchety in terms of "old-fashioned, intolerant, and narrow-minded", but your explanation of yourself I would describe as becoming more devout.

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I suppose in all honesty I'd only use the word crotchety in terms of "old-fashioned, intolerant, and narrow-minded", but your explanation of yourself I would describe as becoming more devout.

 

Right...except I would think that so-called liberal Mormons would debate that.

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I wouldn't say I am conservative or liberal.....right now I am disappointed

 

More about politics than morals--but yeah, I track with this.

 

Morally, I've moderated some.  My parents were not so much liberal as "hands off."  They really believed that children should find their way, with only occasional parental input.  They were not church-going, either.

 

I started church at age 10, and fully embraced the mores.  I did not drink, smoke, or listen to rock 'n roll.  I would never date non-Christians.  Now that I am raising daughters, I find that I am the more lenient parent, and that I try to give my girls the power to make their own decisions.  We definitely draw some lines, and church is not optional.  However--maybe because I am an older parent (50), I'm less fearful that "wrong ideas" will drive them away from the church.

 

I still track conservative, but I seem my demeanor and approach to be more tolerant and listening, vs. a pretty dogmatic and self-assuredness in my younger years.

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I'm a midliner in all ways.

My family, though, is all over the map.

The only commonality any of us have to each other is integrity. Personal integrity is king in my family. So, in that way, the older I get the more in line with my family I become, as I become more sure and aware of myself as a person.

As an example... I have a close branch of my family in rural Illinois. Blood red republican, über conservative, etc.

(Even, over-stereotypically to my embarassment... More than just a touch racist)

who all voted for Obama.

Why???

Because he was a black man in office in their state, he was under constant scrutiny by them (and those like them)

And he won their grudging respect, and eventually admiration, as an HONEST man.

"Might not agree with his politics, but he does what he says. Gives a man a fair warning. And if he can't do what he says, he works hard for the next best thing. Politicians are all a bunch a liars. I'd rather have a man in office I can disagree with, but trust, than any of them other snakes who will lie to your face then go do the opposite while trying to convince you otherwise. Who are ya gonna believe, me or your own eyes, and all smarmy pants get people to agree with them."

See?

That's my family in a nutshell.

Rather disagree with an honest man, than agree with a liar.

When I was younger, I tended to believe people a heckuva lot more than I do now.

Not bitter. Just been around the block a few times.

And I've come more and more to agree with the import of honest dealing. In all areas of life. Not just what sounds good, or feels good, but what can be trusted & depended upon.

Q

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More about politics than morals--but yeah, I track with this.

 

Morally, I've moderated some.  My parents were not so much liberal as "hands off."  They really believed that children should find their way, with only occasional parental input.  They were not church-going, either.

 

I started church at age 10, and fully embraced the mores.  I did not drink, smoke, or listen to rock 'n roll.  I would never date non-Christians.  Now that I am raising daughters, I find that I am the more lenient parent, and that I try to give my girls the power to make their own decisions.  We definitely draw some lines, and church is not optional.  However--maybe because I am an older parent (50), I'm less fearful that "wrong ideas" will drive them away from the church.

 

I still track conservative, but I seem my demeanor and approach to be more tolerant and listening, vs. a pretty dogmatic and self-assuredness in my younger years.

I will vote Republican.....however since the last election I have become disappointed and somewhat bitter. I will vote republican before I would democrat. I will look at the other parties before I vote democrat.
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Morally speaking? I think I'm getting much more conservative with age (look out thirties!) yet I feel I have some liberal streaks in some morality:  perhaps I'm not accepting it, but I understand where people are coming from and am willing to let them do their thing. 

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Everyone is morally conservative when Society abides by their morals. Everybody is morally liberal when Society do not. A Mormon in 1800's Missouri would have a more urgent desire to hasten change. A Mormon in 2000"s Utah would try to limit change.

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