The Holy Bible

[serapha]

You have read Jeff Lindsay's list of faith and works scriptures.

No, I haven't that list.

You may not agree with the works interpretation but your opinion is an interpretation as well. Like I said, I could write myself an more clear exposition on faith and works than is found in Bible.

And the benefit of "works" as the biblical text specifies is????

snow,

If you have problems with passages, then cite one for discussion, but citing that people have difficulties with biblical passages does not bring any of those same difficulties to light.

This is "apologetics". Defend your statement and provide a text.

~serapha~

[serapha]

You had better define very closely what you mean by infallible (and literal). Otherwise you are inviting mischief."

And, please, do let me define "literal"...

"based upon their actual words in their ordinary meaning, not figurative or symbolic unless there is a reason that a passage may not be taken in that manner"

For example, "fishers of men" obviously does not mean fishing for men as in casting a net and catching a crop of men, but instead, that the fishers of men would cast the Gospel before men in an effort to "catch" them as believers.

~serapha~

[Snow]

Serapha,

Why have you given up on your quest to show the Bible to be infallible. You detoured to the Laban/Nephi issue (unrelated to the topic), then you abandoned the problem of Biblical morality, all but ignored the lack of doctrinal clarity and now what to get on to apologetics of faith and works and not before you regress to the definition of literal for no apparent reason.

Look Serapha, you have an impossible task, and I think you know that. You seems to be doing everything you can to avoid engaging in the debate. You should have avoided it to begin with. I'll understand if you withdraw.

[serapha]

Snow,

I believe I have asked you more than once to put forth one statement, and we can discuss it.

The Word of God contains no unreconcilable error.

Is that sufficient provocation to bring you to action? Just because you believe the Bible to contain error, just simply doesn't make it so.

Now, are we back on track? If not, then know this, it wasn't me that moved.

~serapha~

[Guest Starsky]

If the Bible has no error in it, where is the original texts? Are they EXACTLY as the bible we have today?

What about the NIV. It really doesn't allow one to receive personal understanding through the Spirit, it just puts out the verses as someone today understood them.

What about the mystery?

1 Cor. 2: 7

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

[Snow]

Originally posted by serapha@Apr 3 2004, 08:43 PM

Snow,

I believe I have asked you more than once to put forth one statement, and we can discuss it....

Now, are we back on track? If not, then know this, it wasn't me that moved.

~serapha~

Huh?

I put forth several statements which you refuse to address. You, specifically the one who refuses to engage.

One statement was on doctrinal clarity of salvation and you essentially ignored it.

The other was murderous barbarity in the Bible blamed on God and you tried to defend it by saying that killing children could be a good thing and that the BoM Mormon also had a killing blamed on God.

Look, I know very well what you want. You want to lob you a softball Bible errancy issue so that you can offer a pat answer that requires us to believe something other than what the Bible says. For example, I can say that the Bible says that Elhanan (2 Samuel 21:19) killed Goliath, thus contradicting the account of David and then you will ascribe it to copyist error and think that you have proven something. Of course you will not have proven anything because you would be requiring us to believe something not in evidence to correct the obvious error in the Bible. Or I will show the chief of the mighty men of David lifted up his spear and killed 800 men (2 Samuel 23:8) or was it really only 300 men (1 Chronicles 11:11)? And you will try and tell us that the Bible really means something other than what it really says, and if only we could put it into a better historical context or twist the author’s intent just a bit, then the error that is in the Bible is easier to swallow.

There are hundreds of such errors in the Bible and most all the solutions to the errors require us to accept on faith that some missing copyist messed up or that the Bible doesn’t really say what actually does say.

If you want to point out the errors yourself and try and solve them - go ahead but don’t tell me that I haven’t offered up a statement when I actually offered up two.

So far, you’re not much of an advocate for your position. I'll give you another chance and make it simple for you by introducing errancy tests one by one. See the new threads.

[serapha]

Snow,

I'm off the forum until your conduct is addressed by a moderator, or until you change your attitude.

Don't you realize that anyone "seeking" answers in mormonism will take one look at this forum and move on to some other place. How long has it been since someone actually visited this forum and posted that they were investigating mormonism?

I would think that an investigator would look at all the nastiness here and determine that if all mormons can do is post nasty, personal and insulting responses, that mormonism isn't for them.

As I have been told, the internet is an opportunity to express your witness, to show your testimony. Who wants to be a mormon when the responses on here are hateful, personal, and insulting?

I certainly don't want what you have, snow.... and I doubt anyone else does either.

~serapha~

[Snow]

Originally posted by serapha@Apr 4 2004, 08:15 PM

Snow,

I'm off the forum until your conduct is addressed by a moderator, or until you change your attitude.

That's just an excuse.

Anyone reading this thread can see that you opening the subject, I responded, you ignored or deferred, then you accused me of not offering up a statement.

If you can't hack it, you can't hack it, don't blame me for it.

By the way Serpha, remember you came to this board from the christianforum board so don't act all high and mighty. We all know the level of dishonesty and bigotry and hatemongering there and who was a part of it.

Bottom line, your topic, your failure to engage. Look at it this way, maybe your lucky - I haven't gotten to archeology yet.

[Snow]

Originally posted by serapha@Apr 4 2004, 08:15 PM

I would think that an investigator would look at all the nastiness here and determine that if all mormons can do is post nasty, personal and insulting responses, that mormonism isn't for them.

Actually, this forum has historically had a very bad reputation. The general rap was that it was little more than an anti-Mormon propoganda site. Now most of the that element is gone. I'm sorry (I'm saying that sarcastically) that you don't like to be challenged when disagreed with but if your general premise is that Mormons are Christian (and that is your general premise) don't expect me to roll over and let you pat my belly, ruff.

Let me ask you this though in all seriousness. You don't seem to mind the lies and bigotry and hate and attacks at christianforum; why does being dealt with sarcastically bother you here? Is it that the acrimony there is from your perspective radiating out towards Mormons and that here it is me radiating towards you? I think it is.

[Snow]

PS,

Still, in retrospect, I realize I am pretty brusque. I thought I was doing better but will try and improve; still it wouldn't hurt if you were a little less sensitive as I don't think I was all that offensive...

[Kevin]

Serapha,

I just happened upon this discussion today. That you have now decided to cease discussing the matter with Snow I find to be most interesting. I can't help but wonder why you would not respond to Snow's comments. I find your comments concerning investigators to be a cop out. Snow has said nothing (at least nothing that I could see) that I think most would consider abrasive or offensive. I'm surprised, having seen the acrimony that exists on christianforum, that you consider this less than mild conversation to be so offensive as to cause you to leave. IMO you're not able to discuss Snow's points and have now issued a lame transparent excuse for not doing so.

[serapha]

Originally posted by Kevin@Apr 5 2004, 11:46 AM

Serapha,

I just happened upon this discussion today. That you have now decided to cease discussing the matter with Snow I find to be most interesting. I can't help but wonder why you would not respond to Snow's comments. I find your comments concerning investigators to be a cop out. Snow has said nothing (at least nothing that I could see) that I think most would consider abrasive or offensive. I'm surprised, having seen the acrimony that exists on christianforum, that you consider this less than mild conversation to be so offensive as to cause you to leave. IMO you're not able to discuss Snow's points and have now issued a lame transparent excuse for not doing so.

Kevin,

If you want to pick up the discussion from the first posting, I would be glad to have a discussion with you... just address issues and not people.

~serapha~

[Snow]

Originally posted by serapha+Apr 5 2004, 08:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (serapha @ Apr 5 2004, 08:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Kevin@Apr 5 2004, 11:46 AM

Serapha,

I just happened upon this discussion today. That you have now decided to cease discussing the matter with Snow I find to be most interesting. I can't help but wonder why you would not respond to Snow's comments. I find your comments concerning investigators to be a cop out. Snow has said nothing (at least nothing that I could see) that I think most would consider abrasive or offensive. I'm surprised, having seen the acrimony that exists on christianforum, that you consider this less than mild conversation to be so offensive as to cause you to leave. IMO you're not able to discuss Snow's points and have now issued a lame transparent excuse for not doing so.

Kevin,

If you want to pick up the discussion from the first posting, I would be glad to have a discussion with you... just address issues and not people.

~serapha~

Well that's a clever try Serpha. You pick the argument then when you realize that you can't prevail, see if you can get an easier opponent. Kevin is not an easier debater. He probably even disagrees with my argued position.

Any time you want to support your assertions rather than using people and personalities as excuses, you let me know.

[Snow]

serapha...  "You probably would not understand that there is a degree of mercy in the killing of male children. But God in His omnipotence would know which of these would eventually be lost. Taking young children in death is giving them eternal life with the Father. There is a mercy in that.... an assurance of heaven."

Serapha,

I'm still hoping to get an answer from you on this. Is the belief that murdering little boys is an act of mercy and the gift of eternal life a Baptist belief or is it something that just you believe?

Can you please eloborate?