Addictions

[pam]

So do you agree or disagree?

 

http://askgramps.org/23973/lose-addictions-die

[Lakumi]

So will I still get caffeine withdraws from lack of Pepsi when I die?

[Wingnut]

Well, I'm usually skeptical of NDEs, so that colors my reaction somewhat.  Overall, though, I'd have to say that I disagree, mainly because I think the most precise response possible is "we don't know."  I agree with the LW's friend (and disagree with the accounts given in the NDE) because cigarettes and alcohol (for example) are cravings and addictions of a physical being.  At the same time, I understand that all addictions have a psychological side to them, and I believe that it's possible that even once the body stops craving nicotine, alcohol, etc., the mind may still desire it.

 

So to reiterate, I disagree, mainly because I think the most precise response possible is "we don't know."  :)

[Anddenex]

My understanding is that we will continue to have the same appetites even after this life, which is why we need to overcome them here.  I will have to look further into the quotes I have read in the past.

 

I think though, having more a doctrinal approach than the NDE might clarify more, but that is just me.

[The Folk Prophet]

I agree with Anddenex. Return from Tomorrow hardly constitutes doctrine.

 

Same appetites and passions. Yes. I'm sure there are other sources...but for a quick one from Gospel Principles - chapter 41:

 

They have the same appetites and desires that they had when they lived on earth.

 

But I think appetites needs to be qualified. I do not think it can apply to mortal appetites of the physical world. Otherwise we will all be walking around in the spirit world craving food all the time whether we are righteous or not. Maybe. But I think it refers more to the idea that we will still desire good or evil at that point, more than specific cravings for chocolate or the like.

[Seminarysnoozer]

So do you agree or disagree?

 

http://askgramps.org/23973/lose-addictions-die

It has to become part of our spiritual character to continue on through the next life.  To mar the spirit like that one has to develop a love for whatever addiction.  One may ask, 'isn't that what addiction means?'  There is a difference between the passions of the body and what is in our "heart" or our heart's desire". 

 

If a person who has Tourette's syndrome yells out a particular explitive every time they walk into the chapel, I don't think any of us would say that that particular practice, done a thousand times over would stay with the individual in the next life.  Unless, they learn to love that thing, if it becomes 'written in the heart' then it will stay.

 

In this life we are given specific challenges, "thorns in the flesh" and stewardships (talents) that may or may not be part of our spiritual character. These are temporary stewardships that pertain to this life. Pauls "thorn in the flesh" went away upon his death. The lessons learned from enduring it have not gone away.  It may be hard to distinguish what is temporary and what is part of the spiritual make up but I would suggest that our fully matured adult spiritual self that has spent eons in the presence of God, learning all we could before coming here, hardly shines through in most of us. Our outward traits and abilities are mostly of the temporary probationary self, the body.

[Just_A_Guy]

I think there's a chemical and a psychological/spiritual side to most addictions. My pet theory in this scenario is that a dead meth addict wouldn't have to detox, but he would still want the stuff because he just hasn't learned healthy stress coping mechanisms and may still fondly recall the physical fix he got through using. Ditto for a sex/porn addict--the endorphin/hormonal cravings wouldn't be present after death, but the spiritual aspects still have to be dealt with.

Generally speaking, I think that those who have to be redeemed from "hell" will ultimately discover that the hell was almost completely of their own making.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I loved it.  I was thinking of Return from Tomorrow when I read the question.  :)  

 

I agree that Return from Tomorrow is not doctrine, but it "feels" right to me. 

[Wingnut]

Generally speaking, I think that those who have to be redeemed from "hell" will ultimately discover that the hell was almost completely of their own making.

 

So...hell isn't other people?

[mirkwood]

When I die I shall finally overcome my oxygen addiction.

[Quin]

To some degree that's my understanding of the Telestial... Countless worlds, each tailor made to help a spirit progress... Or not. Their choice. Regardless of what their trials are that they need to overcome. To me, that's part of the sparkling beauty that IS the Telestial, and the love of HF. Whatever's broken, here's where we shall mend it.

I just doubt, however, that HF is as black and white as we often make him out to be.

Meaning that while I'm certain that for SOME their addictions follow them onward, and they have to deal with them before they can progress...

I can also see that for some OTHERS, nope, nada, zilch. Done. To parallel Gramps talking about the coat... If it was the itchy coat, then taking it off solves the itch. If it wasn't the itchy coat, doesn't matter if you're wearing it or not, still gonna itch.

I just don't see HF as binary as we often make things.

I could be wrong.

Won't know until it ceases to matter, though.

Or matters most, depending on how you look at things.

Q

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think there's a chemical and a psychological/spiritual side to most addictions. My pet theory in this scenario is that a dead meth addict wouldn't have to detox, but he would still want the stuff because he just hasn't learned healthy stress coping mechanisms and may still fondly recall the physical fix he got through using. Ditto for a sex/porn addict--the endorphin/hormonal cravings wouldn't be present after death, but the spiritual aspects still have to be dealt with.

Generally speaking, I think that those who have to be redeemed from "hell" will ultimately discover that the hell was almost completely of their own making.

I think it is more complicated than that.  "Coping mechanisms" can be described as physical traits as well.  We know, for example, that self-mutilation is a form of an abnormal coping mechanism that can be triggered by brain injury such as traumatic brain injury to bilateral temporal poles. There was a recent study that showed that posterior hypothalamic deep brain stimulation removed that abnormal coping mechanism.

 

Bialteral lesions to the anterior temporal lobe which can occur in traumatic brain injury (being in a car accident) can result in hypersexuality (see Kluver Bucy syndrome).  In my career I have seen cases like that. They were previously wholesome, church going chaste people who turn into a different personality and one in particular I remember suddenly became hypersexual and had an addiction to pornography and would go to Tijuana for prostitutes after this injury.  He truly had a sex addiction after the injury.  The reason to point this out is that we don't know how much influence the wiring of the brain plays a role in these things in any given person versus some agency allowed choice, we can't judge that.

 

The bottom line is whether something becomes written in our heart or not.  Is it taken to heart, meaning do our spirits incorporate that trait or not.  How do we know that Pauls "thorn in the flesh" was not some addiction, that he now does not have? 

 

What is of "their own making" is hard for us to distinguish in any given person.  That is for only God to know.  We have to assume, as we show love to those around us that may be suffering from addiction, that all of it is not of their own making, that the whole thing is a "thorn in the flesh".  We are not allowed to judge that way because we don't have the ability to know which components are driven by brain anatomy vs. the part that is spiritual characteristics.

[Just_A_Guy]

So...hell isn't other people?

 

Quite to the contrary.  I believe the saying is that you go to heaven for the climate and you go to hell for the company. 

 

I think it is more complicated than that.  "Coping mechanisms" can be described as physical traits as well.  We know, for example, that self-mutilation is a form of an abnormal coping mechanism that can be triggered by brain injury such as traumatic brain injury to bilateral temporal poles. There was a recent study that showed that posterior hypothalamic deep brain stimulation removed that abnormal coping mechanism.

 

Bialteral lesions to the anterior temporal lobe which can occur in traumatic brain injury (being in a car accident) can result in hypersexuality (see Kluver Bucy syndrome).  In my career I have seen cases like that. They were previously wholesome, church going chaste people who turn into a different personality and one in particular I remember suddenly became hypersexual and had an addiction to pornography and would go to Tijuana for prostitutes after this injury.  He truly had a sex addiction after the injury.  The reason to point this out is that we don't know how much influence the wiring of the brain plays a role in these things in any given person versus some agency allowed choice, we can't judge that.

 

The bottom line is whether something becomes written in our heart or not.  Is it taken to heart, meaning do our spirits incorporate that trait or not.  How do we know that Pauls "thorn in the flesh" was not some addiction, that he now does not have? 

 

What is of "their own making" is hard for us to distinguish in any given person.  That is for only God to know.  We have to assume, as we show love to those around us that may be suffering from addiction, that all of it is not of their own making, that the whole thing is a "thorn in the flesh".  We are not allowed to judge that way because we don't have the ability to know which components are driven by brain anatomy vs. the part that is spiritual characteristics.

 

I don't think we fundamentally disagree at all:  there's certainly a component of addiction that is chemical/physiological, and is just something that the spirit inhabiting the body has to deal with; and to which death does offer release.  But does addiction often run concurrently with a spiritual ailment that will persist beyond the veil?  I think the answer can be (not always, but sometimes) "yes".  Obviously, that doesn't change our obligation to be universally compassionate in the here-and-now.  It just means that we can't medicate, operate, or electrically stimulate our way out of every form of addiction.

 

On a semi-topical tangent:  Just_A_Girl swears that there's a quote out there from JFS implying that our bodies are not immediately perfect on resurrection morning, but that they gradually become so over time.  I can't find it anywhere.  Does it ring a bell to you?

[The Folk Prophet]

 

On a semi-topical tangent:  Just_A_Girl swears that there's a quote out there from JFS implying that our bodies are not immediately perfect on resurrection morning, but that they gradually become so over time.  I can't find it anywhere.  Does it ring a bell to you?

 

I am not familiar and have found nothing in searching around. Perhaps there is a confusion on the quotes that do say we will have to grow to become like God. ???

[Wingnut]

On a semi-topical tangent:  Just_A_Girl swears that there's a quote out there from JFS implying that our bodies are not immediately perfect on resurrection morning, but that they gradually become so over time.  I can't find it anywhere.  Does it ring a bell to you?

 

Which JFS?  F or Fielding?

[Seminarysnoozer]

 

Quite to the contrary.  I believe the saying is that you go to heaven for the climate and you go to hell for the company. 

 

 

I don't think we fundamentally disagree at all:  there's certainly a component of addiction that is chemical/physiological, and is just something that the spirit inhabiting the body has to deal with; and to which death does offer release.  But does addiction often run concurrently with a spiritual ailment that will persist beyond the veil?  I think the answer can be (not always, but sometimes) "yes".  Obviously, that doesn't change our obligation to be universally compassionate in the here-and-now.  It just means that we can't medicate, operate, or electrically stimulate our way out of every form of addiction.

 

On a semi-topical tangent:  Just_A_Girl swears that there's a quote out there from JFS implying that our bodies are not immediately perfect on resurrection morning, but that they gradually become so over time.  I can't find it anywhere.  Does it ring a bell to you?

Thanks for the clarification.

 

The quote may be the one in which he says the resurrected body with grow to the stature of the spirit in reference to mothers being allowed to raise their children. Joseph F. Smith; "But we know our children will not be compelled to remain as a child in stature always, for it was revealed from God, the fountain of truth, through Joseph Smith the prophet, in this dispensation, that in the resurrection of the dead the child that was buried in its infancy will come up in the form of the child that it was when it was laid down; then it will begin to develop. From the day of the resurrection, the body will develop until it reaches the full measure of the stature of its spirit, whether it be male or female."

[Bini]

NDE is borderline supernatural for me, and secondly, we just don't know. I think certain desires we'll retain after death but like Mirk jokingly said, there are sure to be things that we just drop cold turkey and without a second thought.

[MacDow]

If our resurrected bodies are perfected then how could they have addictions? Or will people with addictions receive a different kind of body?

[Just_A_Guy]

Here it is:

 

“What a glorious thought it is, to me at least, and it must be to all who have conceived of the truth or received it in their hearts, that those from whom we have to part here, we will meet again and see as they are. We will meet the same identical being that we associated with here in the flesh—not some other soul, some other being, or the same being in some other form, but the same identity and the same form and likeness, the same person we knew and were associated with in our mortal existence, even to the wounds in the flesh. Not that a person will always be marred by scars, wounds, deformities, defects or infirmities, for these will be removed in their course, in their proper time, according to the merciful providence of God. Deformity will be removed; defects will be eliminated, and men and women shall attain to the perfection of their spirits, to the perfection that God designed in the beginning” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 23).

 

(Quoted in Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, online here.)

[Ratbag]

Yes, all addictions are taken with you when you die.  You are the exact same person in the spirit world as you were in life; no different.  Hardly any church member knows anything about the different types of evil spirits loose in this world.  The scriptures talk about three different types: devils or demons, unclean or foul, and divination spirits.  I've heard many LDS ( used to be one of them) say that all of these types were among those cast out of heaven along with Satan for rebellion.  They couldn't be more wrong.

 

From a number of the early church leaders:

 

"Although those men and women are dead, they have a good deal of power; their spirits have power over us when we render ourselves subject to them; their spirits are busy at work.  They are diligent in performing the work of destruction and confusion; they go at that work the very moment their spirits leave their bodies.  I have said, a great many times, that that spirit which possesses us here will possess us when our spirits leave our bodies, and we shall there be very much the same as we are here.  If you are subject to rebellious spirits, or to a spirit of apostasy here, will you not have the same spirit beyond the veil that you had on this side?  You will, and it will have power over you to lead you to do wrong, and it will control your spirits."  (Heber C. Kimball, JD 4:237)

 

"When those who are guided by these evil spirits die they go where the evils spirits are, and they will continue to have power over them.  Those who resist such spirits in the flesh will be free from their power hereafter."  (Wilford Woodruff: History of His Life and Labors, Pg. 619)

 

"We receive revelation from Heaven, you receive your revelations from every foul spirit that has departed this life, and gone out of the bodies of mobbers, murderers, highwaymen, drunkards, thieves, liars, and every kind of debauched character, whose spirits are floating around here, and searching and seeking whom they can destroy; for they are the servants of the devil...."  (Brigham Young, JD 13:281)

 

There are a few more, but that is the gist of their teachings.

 

So, getting back to the unclean, foul and spirits of divination; these are not part of the 1/3 that were cast out of heaven.  These are people who die in their sins and become those spirits.

 

"Many spirits of the departed, who are unhappy, linger in lonely wretchedness about the earth, and in the air, and especially about their ancient homesteads, and the places rendered dear to them by the memory of former scenes.  The more wicked of these are the kind spoken of in Scripture, as "foul spirits,' "unclean spirits," spirits who afflict persons in the flesh, and engender various diseases in the human system.  They will sometimes enter human bodies, and will distract them, throw them into fits, cast them into the water, in the fire, etc.  They will trouble them with dreams, nightmare, hysterics, fever, etc.  They will also deform them in body and in features, by convulsions, cramps, contortions, etc., curses, and even words of other languages.  If permitted, they will often cause death.  Some of these spirits are adulterous, and suggest to the mind all manner of lasciviousness, all kinds of evil thoughts and temptations."  (Parley P. Pratt, Key to the Science of Theology, Pg. 111)

 

"Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God.  Nay, ye cannot say this, for that same spirit which doth possess you bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world."  (Alma 34:34)

 

So, yes, quite literally, the exact same disposition you have at the time you die will be the same disposition you will have in the spirit world.  If you are an apathetic member at the time of your death, you'll continue to be apathetic.  If you are addicted to porn, you'll become an unclean spirit tempting the weak minded to look at porn.  If you are prideful and rebellious and try to lead members here astray, you'll become an unclean spirit and continue to lead the gullible members astray.  If you are valiant in this life, you'll influence the living to be valiant.

 

[Seminarysnoozer]

Yes, all addictions are taken with you when you die.  You are the exact same person in the spirit world as you were in life; no different.  Hardly any church member knows anything about the different types of evil spirits loose in this world.  The scriptures talk about three different types: devils or demons, unclean or foul, and divination spirits.  I've heard many LDS ( used to be one of them) say that all of these types were among those cast out of heaven along with Satan for rebellion.  They couldn't be more wrong.

 

From a number of the early church leaders:

 

"Although those men and women are dead, they have a good deal of power; their spirits have power over us when we render ourselves subject to them; their spirits are busy at work.  They are diligent in performing the work of destruction and confusion; they go at that work the very moment their spirits leave their bodies.  I have said, a great many times, that that spirit which possesses us here will possess us when our spirits leave our bodies, and we shall there be very much the same as we are here.  If you are subject to rebellious spirits, or to a spirit of apostasy here, will you not have the same spirit beyond the veil that you had on this side?  You will, and it will have power over you to lead you to do wrong, and it will control your spirits."  (Heber C. Kimball, JD 4:237)

 

"When those who are guided by these evil spirits die they go where the evils spirits are, and they will continue to have power over them.  Those who resist such spirits in the flesh will be free from their power hereafter."  (Wilford Woodruff: History of His Life and Labors, Pg. 619)

 

"We receive revelation from Heaven, you receive your revelations from every foul spirit that has departed this life, and gone out of the bodies of mobbers, murderers, highwaymen, drunkards, thieves, liars, and every kind of debauched character, whose spirits are floating around here, and searching and seeking whom they can destroy; for they are the servants of the devil...."  (Brigham Young, JD 13:281)

 

There are a few more, but that is the gist of their teachings.

 

So, getting back to the unclean, foul and spirits of divination; these are not part of the 1/3 that were cast out of heaven.  These are people who die in their sins and become those spirits.

 

"Many spirits of the departed, who are unhappy, linger in lonely wretchedness about the earth, and in the air, and especially about their ancient homesteads, and the places rendered dear to them by the memory of former scenes.  The more wicked of these are the kind spoken of in Scripture, as "foul spirits,' "unclean spirits," spirits who afflict persons in the flesh, and engender various diseases in the human system.  They will sometimes enter human bodies, and will distract them, throw them into fits, cast them into the water, in the fire, etc.  They will trouble them with dreams, nightmare, hysterics, fever, etc.  They will also deform them in body and in features, by convulsions, cramps, contortions, etc., curses, and even words of other languages.  If permitted, they will often cause death.  Some of these spirits are adulterous, and suggest to the mind all manner of lasciviousness, all kinds of evil thoughts and temptations."  (Parley P. Pratt, Key to the Science of Theology, Pg. 111)

 

"Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God.  Nay, ye cannot say this, for that same spirit which doth possess you bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world."  (Alma 34:34)

 

So, yes, quite literally, the exact same disposition you have at the time you die will be the same disposition you will have in the spirit world.  If you are an apathetic member at the time of your death, you'll continue to be apathetic.  If you are addicted to porn, you'll become an unclean spirit tempting the weak minded to look at porn.  If you are prideful and rebellious and try to lead members here astray, you'll become an unclean spirit and continue to lead the gullible members astray.  If you are valiant in this life, you'll influence the living to be valiant.

All the quotes you gave say "spirit" and you, in your last paragraph say "you".  There is a difference.  How one is during this life is not always reflective of their spirit lest you want to say that a person with Down's syndrome reflects their spirit's nature. Or the person who has Tourette's yelling out explitives at church reflects their spirit's nature.

 

Heber C. Kimbal's quote you gave is key, as it says "if we render ouselves subject to them".  There is a difference between enduring vs. becoming subject to it.  Paul did not become subject to his thorn in the flesh but endured it while here.  We all live in the flesh while here and therefore have fleshy addictions of some kind or another.  We all (pretty much) get hungry on fast sunday. Even the Apostles slept in the garden when asked to wait and watch.  Do they have an addiction to sleep?  The body does, but the body is weak even when the spirit is willing.  The body and the spirit have different natures. They re not one in the same. I think you ere if you suggest such a thing.  Your last paragraph should have used the word "spirit" as opposed to "you", like all the examples you gave from people who know what they are talking about.  Will the spirit of the person with Tourette's still have Tourette-like behaviors in the next life just because they couldn't control it here?  ... I don't think so.

[Ratbag]

Snoozer-

 

"All the quotes you gave say "spirit" and you, in your last paragraph say "you."

 

No offense intended, but you're nit picking now, looking for things to bolster your beliefs.  I assumed you'd realize that when I said "you," I was referring to your spirit for they are one and the same.  First off, Tourette's isn't an addiction, it is caused through possession by an unclean spirit.  Secondly, sleep and eating are a necessary function to maintain life, although you can be addicted to food.  The body is the mortal house of our spirit, but our spirit is what makes us "us."  It is our "mind," our intelligence with a veil across it to allow us to make choices in this life free of our memory of the pre-existence.  All you have to do is research the teachings of the apostles and prophets to learn this.

 

All addictions start in our mind.  Have you ever been addicted to anything?  Drugs, alcohol, pornography, gambling, anything?  All of our actions start in our mind, even if they are totally unconscious.  The desire to take drugs, look at porn, gamble, everything we do starts in our mind.  When we die, we take only what we have in our mind.

 

I was addicted to morphine for 11 years and came off it cold turkey (not for the faint hearted).  Once I got over the physiological effects of addiction, I was left with the psychological effects.  Without the physiological effects egging you on, the psychological effects can be dealt with through counseling and priesthood blessings.  I also was a porn addict for 48 years.  When I was just six years old, my forty-something neighbor gave me nearly daily access to his large collection of hard core porn for several years.  I became addicted to it by the time I turned seven.

 

Drug addiction could possibly be referred to as what you say are "fleshy addictions," however, it still starts in the mind.  It takes time to become a drug addict, but porn addiction is purely mental.  It also takes some time to become addicted.  However, while drug addiction has a physiological component, porn addiction does not.  It is a spiritual sickness with some physiological symptoms.  I know all about the biochemicals involved in this addiction.  I could probably give you a dissertation on them if I wanted to bog my mind down with the stuff.  I know how they affect you when you look at porn.  Believe me, the effects, the "rush" of your own biochemicals through looking at porn and through taking drugs is almost identical.  The effects are just shorter lived.

 

Porn addiction isn't a physiological addiction.  It has compulsions (I could give you a PhD thesis on compulsions without trying) that are almost uncontrollable, but these compulsion are entirely in the mind.  It has nothing to do with the biochemicals, except it makes you feel good during the time you are looking at porn.  Like Tourette's, porn addiction is caused through possession by unclean spirits.  If you are skeptical about "possession" by unclean spirits, I can hear your disbelief coming through. 

 

However, let me tell you a little story.  As I mentioned, I was a porn addict for 48 years, but I had an interesting thing happen to me.  My wife suspected for some time that I was possessed by unclean spirits and she told me this many times.  I did the same thing as most LDS:  I didn't believe her.  Possession was only something you read about in the scriptures.  Besides, I had it in my mind the idea if possession did happen, it was like Linda Blair with her head spinning around on her shoulders, projectile vomiting, turning green, walking on the ceiling, etc.  It isn't anything like that.

 

After a year of her telling me this, and after my final relapse into looking at porn, I knew something had to be done about my addiction.  I finally went to my bishop, still doubtful, but willing to do anything to change, I told him my entire life's history and my wife's belief that I was possessed by unclean spirits.  I asked him for a blessing.  He, too, was doubtful, but gave me the blessing anyway.  In the blessing, he commanded any evil spirits to leave me and when he said, "I command it to be so, in the name of Jesus Christ," I felt the unclean spirits leave me.  It felt like an angry bee hive in my chest and then as if something was forcibly ripped from my body.  Once the unclean spirits were gone, I was completely changed.  The homosexual tendencies I'd had were gone.  My desire to look at porn or any inappropriately dressed women was gone.  When I got home and told my wife, she immediately saw and sensed a difference in me. 

 

Now, you might think that this is just a one time deal, but my son also was a porn addict.  He had the same compulsions and desires I had.  After I had the unclean spirits cast out of me, I saw the exact same symptoms in him.  I told him the same thing my wife told me and recommended he get a blessing.  He, too, had unclean spirits in him that were cast out, and he, too, felt them leave.  Now, any time I see or talk with someone with porn addiction, and they have the same symptoms I and my son had, I apply the  "duck test."  If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks, swims and has feathers and bill like a duck, it's probably a duck (I've said this to other people, but their conclusion is that it was a cow).

 

Being possessed by unclean spirits is not like anything you can imagine.  You don't know they are there.  You can't feel them, other than you know something isn't right, but it still feels natural at the same time.  Unclean spirits can't get you to do something you won't inherently do in the first place.  I have never smoked nor drank alcoholic beverages, or coffee or tea.  I did take drugs (prescription) for 11 years.  I never had pre or extra-marital sex.  I don't steal, rob or murder.  These were not things I would inherently do, but I did look at porn.  Unclean spirits can only work with your weaknesses.  Our weaknesses, the mental type that get you barred from Heaven, are all in our mind.  As I said, everything you do starts in your mind and you take only what is in your mind when you die.

 

Ever since I had the unclean spirits cast out of me, I have spend countless hours researching the effects of porn addiction and its relationship and causes to unclean spirits.  I can give you more quotes about possession than you probably realize.  I counted up every single miracle performed by Christ and his apostles that involved healing in the scriptures.  I didn't count the one's that involved non-healing.  Fully 56% of all the healings involved the casting out of devils or unclean spirits.  What does that say for today?  If more than half of the healings talked about in the scriptures involved the casting out of devils and unclean spirits, shouldn't we be thinking more along the lines of this for today's ailments?  You would not believe what the early church leaders said about this.

 

One can either accept this at face value or you can go the way of the wisdom of the world and say that Christ and the apostles were just whistling in the wind.  They didn't understand that what they were really doing was getting rid of bacteria, viruses and curing actual defects in the brain.  Either the scriptures are correct or they aren't.  Personally, I'm going by my own personal experience, the teachings of the early apostles and prophets, and the Savior than accept the wisdom of the world.

 

If you want, I'll go ahead and take up all the bandwidth of this site with everything I've learned, but you just might want to do some research yourself.  I recommend you start with the Journal of Discourses, History of the Church, Three Degrees of Glory, The Key to the Science of Theology, Joseph Smith's writings, etc.  I've spent more hours than I can count researching this.  Put in the search bar things like, "evil spirits, foul spirits, devil, possess, cast out, etc."  I'm even writing a book.  It probably won't go anywhere, but it will allow me to order my thoughts and put down what I've learned.

 

I'm sure that you or anyone else can pick apart what I've said to find fault with it.  I'm sure there are things I forgot to mention, things that I take for granted that you should know and understand.  I'll probably have to come back to clarify and elaborate and post a number of quotes to back up what I say.  This isn't the forum (writing, not speaking) to go into depth on this subject.  It would take hours to present everything I've learned in person, let alone in writing.  That is why I seriously recommend you do the same research I've done. 

 

P.S.  I am fully, totally healed from drug and porn addiction.  Not just in recovery, but fully healed.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Snoozer-

 

"All the quotes you gave say "spirit" and you, in your last paragraph say "you."

 

No offense intended, but you're nit picking now, looking for things to bolster your beliefs.  I assumed you'd realize that when I said "you," I was referring to your spirit for they are one and the same.  First off, Tourette's isn't an addiction, it is caused through possession by an unclean spirit.  Secondly, sleep and eating are a necessary function to maintain life, although you can be addicted to food.  The body is the mortal house of our spirit, but our spirit is what makes us "us."  It is our "mind," our intelligence with a veil across it to allow us to make choices in this life free of our memory of the pre-existence.  All you have to do is research the teachings of the apostles and prophets to learn this.

 

Okay, lets research the teachings of David O. McKay, a prophet of God; "Teachings of David O. McKay; Each of us has two contrasting natures: the physical and the spiritual. Man is a dual being, and his life a plan of God. That is the first fundamental fact to keep in mind. Man has a natural body and a spiritual body."

 

President David O. McKay (1873–1970) taught that because of the Fall we have a dual nature: “One, related to the earthly or animal life; the other, akin to the Divine. Whether a man remains satisfied within what we designate the animal world, satisfied with what the animal world will give him, yielding without effort to the whims of his appetites and passions and slipping farther and farther into the realm of indulgence, or whether, through self-mastery, he rises toward intellectual, moral, and spiritual enjoyments depends upon the kind of choice he makes every day, nay, every hour of his life.”

 

How about Elder Ballard; "Elder Melvin J. Ballard (1873–1939) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles taught that “all the assaults that the enemy of our souls will make to capture us will be through the flesh, because it is made up of the unredeemed earth, and he has power over the elements of the earth. The approach he makes to us will be through the lusts, the appetites, the ambitions of the flesh. All the help that comes to us from the Lord to aid us in this struggle will come to us through the spirit that dwells within this mortal body. So these two mighty forces are operating upon us through these two channels.

“… If you would have a strong spirit which has dominance over the body, you must see to it that your spirit receives spiritual food and spiritual exercise. …

“The man or woman who is taking neither spiritual food nor spiritual exercise will presently become a spiritual weakling, and the flesh will be master. Whoever therefore is obtaining both spiritual food and exercise will be in control over this body and will keep it subject unto the will of God.”

 

All the assaults will come through the flesh!!!! Elder Ballard explains that it is through the flesh that come the lusts, appetites and ambitions!!!  He says "two mighty forces" are operating through "two channels", not one!!   It is not one in the same.  You would know that if you really studied the teachings of the Apostles and Prophets.

 

Gospel of the Doctrines teachers manual, chapter 8, from the Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints, supporting Paul's discussion on this topic; "Discuss with the students what is meant by the term dual nature. The term dual nature refers to our opposing qualities. On the one hand, we are spirit children of God, innocent when we come into the world and endowed with the potential to become divine (see Supporting Statements E on p. 21 of the student manual). On the other hand, we also have bodies of flesh and bones and are driven by physical urges and demands (see Supporting Statements E on p. 21 of the student manual). The Apostle Paul recognized the conflicting spiritual and physical aspects of man (see Romans 7:15–25; Galatians 5:16–17). Failure to master physical urges results in the emergence of what King Benjamin called the “natural man” (Mosiah 3:19)."

 

Elder Bednar, General Conference 2013; "As sons and daughters of God, we have inherited divine capacities from Him. But we presently live in a fallen world. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. Consequently, the Fall of Adam and its spiritual and temporal consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies. And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).

The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test. Every appetite, desire, propensity, and impulse of the natural man may be overcome by and through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We are here on the earth to develop godlike qualities and to bridle all of the passions of the flesh."

 

What??? the flesh has inclinations, impulses and passions??? Yes it does!  The spirit has its will and the body has its will.  Which one we follow is the test we face.  That is the "precise nature of the test of mortality" as the Apostle David Bednar said just last year.  The imprecise way to discuss that battle is to use the terms "evil spirits".  Now that we have enlightened clear revelation about the battle we can talk in precise terms, like Elder Bednar, President David O. Mckay, Mosiah and even Paul have talked about it.  So, if you want to call me "nit picky" I will take that as your pejorative for being precise as opposed to the vague descriptions you would like to place on the topic.  When one uses the term "you" in relation to these things at the same time one talks specifically about the spirit, then one has to also diferentiate which "you" she is talking about. The outer "you" or the inner "you".  If you don't appreciate the difference then you will not understand what is meant by God seeing the inner man.  There can only be an inner man if there is an outer man as well. We have a hard time telling the difference between those two even in ourselves.

[The Folk Prophet]

Here it is:

 

Quote

“What a glorious thought it is, to me at least, and it must be to all who have conceived of the truth or received it in their hearts, that those from whom we have to part here, we will meet again and see as they are. We will meet the same identical being that we associated with here in the flesh—not some other soul, some other being, or the same being in some other form, but the same identity and the same form and likeness, the same person we knew and were associated with in our mortal existence, even to the wounds in the flesh. Not that a person will always be marred by scars, wounds, deformities, defects or infirmities, for these will be removed in their course, in their proper time, according to the merciful providence of God. Deformity will be removed; defects will be eliminated, and men and women shall attain to the perfection of their spirits, to the perfection that God designed in the beginning” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 23).

 

(Quoted in Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, online here.)

 

How sad for the deformed, ugly, scared and infirm.

 

I question this as doctrinal in terms of "common" and "repeated often", etc... Moreover, there's some logical problems in it. If the purpose of being raised as we were was so that we knew each other, then what of the wife who dies, and then the husband gets marred, scarred, or just puts on a ton of weight, then dies? And what if that man married a second time after the marring, and that wife died before him as well. Which one should he be raised as to be recognizable?

[Seminarysnoozer]

How sad for the deformed, ugly, scared and infirm.

 

I question this as doctrinal in terms of "common" and "repeated often", etc... Moreover, there's some logical problems in it. If the purpose of being raised as we were was so that we knew each other, then what of the wife who dies, and then the husband gets marred, scarred, or just puts on a ton of weight, then dies? And what if that man married a second time after the marring, and that wife died before him as well. Which one should he be raised as to be recognizable?

Read that last sentence of that quote in light of the fact that God created one man and one woman in the Garden of Eden.  The variability from that original creation is as a result of the Fall, so when you ask which one should he be raised to, it doesn't matter because eventually it would be neither.  At least, at some point, according to Joseph F. Smith, the body will have all of its deformities and defects eliminated back to the way God originally designed it.

The body of the glory of the Sun is one, the body of the glory of the moon is one and the bodies of the glory of the stars are numerous as one star differ from another.  I am not trying to suggest that all in the Celestial Kingdom will be clones but at least it will be to the point of not having to say that one differs from another. The body will look more like the original creation more than anything we look like post Fall once all the defects and deformities are removed. So, that is why the answer to that scenario is neither.

It all depends on how far one believes Adam and Eve fell from their paradisical bodies that would live forever to the ones from which we get our current genes. I realize some would like to think we didn't fall that far but the bodies of resurrected beings are described to some detail on certain occasions of having an appearance that is hard to describe.  Unless, of course, he looked something like this when he was alive; "His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters" 

 

That quote from Joseph F. Smith is part of a number of quotes supporting the idea that we were around before this life and we will be around, as our spirits are eternal, after this life.  The same spirit that was around before this life will be there after too.