Non-LDS view of God

[David13]

As a child in the Catholic Church I had an idea of a pre-mortal life.  As a result, I was strapped into my chair and re-educated as to that belief.

Sort of.

So I like the idea here.

The Catholics do pray.  But they recite approved prayers, over and over.  Ten Hail Marys and ten Our Fathers.  It is really more an empty chant than a prayer.

Who was it that said prayer is meant to have more effect on the pray-er rather than God.

When I was a child in the Catholic Church, word came down from on high, Rome, I guess, that the Holy Ghost would no longer be called the Holy Ghost, but now would be called the Holy Spirit.

I also remember going to the public school and praying.  Until they ended that.

I think what I see here is a distinction without a difference.  Don't all Christians see the same God, merely thru' different interpretations, like the bible?

Who said that if we were all to look upon Jesus, we would each see a different person.

dc

[pugiofidei]

This was a double post of the one below. My apologies.

Edited August 5, 2015 by pugiofidei

[pugiofidei]

 

As a child in the Catholic Church I had an idea of a pre-mortal life.  As a result, I was strapped into my chair and re-educated as to that belief.

Sort of.

So I like the idea here.

The Catholics do pray.  But they recite approved prayers, over and over.  Ten Hail Marys and ten Our Fathers.  It is really more an empty chant than a prayer.

All I can say here is that I've not found the traditional prayers of the Church to be empty. Your mileage may vary, wot wot. Having said that, it is truly sad when all a person does is mumble off the words of a prayer by rote. That isn't prayer, I agree. Still, put it to music, and you have a song, and it seems like no one of any religious persuasion has much of a problem humming off a song by rote. Maybe there is a blind spot here?   

 

Who was it that said prayer is meant to have more effect on the pray-er rather than God.

I don't know. God, in his eternity, has always accounted for the prayers of his children, whenever and wherever they may be. He isn't "effected" by them as such, since to be effected is a change, but God's everlasting Act has within it the knowledge of every prayer that would ever be uttered. God, therefore, gives them ear in his providence, and has from eternity seen to it that every prayer will receive its proper answer. If, as I ought, I pray today, God has known those prayers from everlasting, and from everlasting has had with him his answer to them.

 

When I was a child in the Catholic Church, word came down from on high, Rome, I guess, that the Holy Ghost would no longer be called the Holy Ghost, but now would be called the Holy Spirit.

Nah, not Rome. It would have been the American episcopal conference. It is probably helpful to note that "Ghost" and "Spirit" mean the same thing. Modern English lacks a large number of verb-forms of "ghost", yet for some reason has quite a few verbal forms of the Latinate "spirit", like, "inspire", "respire", "aspire", "expire", etc. The general habit of episcopal conferences has been to adapt theological terms to the vernacular as it is spoken, rather than amending the vernacular where it is lacking. So we say, "Theology", and not "Godlore", though the latter really is a good Englishing of the former.  

Truth be told, I would love to see English find its own footing again, so that we can say things like, "The gast begasteth heartily, aye, mickel in yon trees, lads." We're rather too comfortable in our Anglo-Frankish hybrid, though, even if it lacks internal consistency due to its hodgepodge nature.

 

I also remember going to the public school and praying.  Until they ended that.

Ah, you, then, are from the days of yore! Hail! I am a younger soul, and have more bare a store of memories.

 

I think what I see here is a distinction without a difference.  Don't all Christians see the same God, merely thru' different interpretations, like the bible?

I have to say that I think the differences between Christians are a bit more dire than all that. For instance, as a Catholic I do not believe in Sola Scriptura; I believe the Bible has God for its author, but I also believe the Sacred Tradition of God's family has God as its author. An heir to the Reformation would think this ill-advised. Mind you, I think things like this can be probed out, if in the spirit of trust and friendship Christians share in dispassionate and prayerful dialogue. Nevertheless, they are important things.

 

Who said that if we were all to look upon Jesus, we would each see a different person.

I'm not sure. I can't say I've ever heard that before. It certainly describes well the feeling one gets from every book that comes out about the "Really Real This Time Historical Jesus, Because Everything You Know is Wrong".

 

dc

 

Edited August 5, 2015 by pugiofidei

[prisonchaplain]

We may not agree on these matters, and we may see much that is good in each other, but these matters matter.  God matters.  If He is real, and if He cares, then He would want us to know Him--as He really is.  There may be some nuances of difference that are permissible, given our limited vision.  Nevertheless, I celebrate doctrine--teaching.  It is important.  These conversations are important.  It's beautiful that we have them, quite acceptable that we come to impasses.  We need not be reconciled on them.  We cannot be--unless there are conversions, of course. 

[pugiofidei]

We may not agree on these matters, and we may see much that is good in each other, but these matters matter.  God matters.  If He is real, and if He cares, then He would want us to know Him--as He really is.  There may be some nuances of difference that are permissible, given our limited vision.  Nevertheless, I celebrate doctrine--teaching.  It is important.  These conversations are important.  It's beautiful that we have them, quite acceptable that we come to impasses.  We need not be reconciled on them.  We cannot be--unless there are conversions, of course. 

Every day we out to convert our lives a little more to Christ's. Or, rather better put, each day we ought to allow Christ to convert our lives a little more into his own. :)

Edited August 6, 2015 by pugiofidei

[Latter Days Guy]

Yeah, sorta makes me feel kinda simple, being from a group that just goes by AG...

Funny as in the UK they go by AOG!

[blueskye]

Thank you everyone for your posts, I think it has greatly helped my understanding. I am trying really hard at this and feel I still have a long way to go. Is the following getting closer to the generic-Christian view? (I am particularly trying to understand Evangelical view points). I apologize in advance for any possible foot-in-mouth things I might say.

So, men are only God's creation, not literally His children, correct? We are created in His image, but only in the spiritual fashion, as God doesn't have a body (is that why I get the impression that many generic Christians think the human body is evil?). We didn't exist before being born... so technically Jesus died for all of us alive now even when we didn't exist... When a generic-Christian dies they hope to live with God, but for the first time ever--- because if I've only existed for the last couple decades then I've never actually lived with God before. But what exactly are we going to be doing?

As PC said, This viewpoint makes me feel small. Like beyond microscopic and God is a behemoth. Do you feel this way? Why? It can't be that generic-Christians think they don't matter to God: He had His Son died for us! I could understand feeling small when we sin from my life and the scriptures, but once sins are washed away there is no need for that. Do you feel small? Do you feel intimidated by God?

Ok... I now apologize for putting WAY too many theological topics into a single thread post.

No, I am not intimidated by God, I feel the same as Prison Chaplain, both small and not. Small, compared to God, indeed. And lifted up to Him, in and through Jesus Christ. There is the theological concept of holy fear, which should not be confused with intimidation. Holy fear, is a gift of the Spirit. Think of it more in terms of love, where the One who you love, is all in all to who you are, and so is given, in love, respect. For God, who desires our obedience, not in the form of rule-following, but out of a desire to please the One who is loved. The fear being, that we don't love as we ought. Love for God, produces a desire to be pleasing to God. In what God views as pleasing. Sinless, with love for others, "thyself" ( don't forget) and even our enemies. This desire, being a gift of the Holy Spirit. Our fear of God, being rooted in love. The Lord loves those who fear Him! The psalmist should be understood in light of our understanding, that in Christ, we have no fear of condemnation. He came to save not to condemn. So this fear of the Lord, is of a different kind, and not of condemnation.

Conversely, the LDS view of God, seems to me, to portray God as small.

Edited August 31, 2015 by blueskye

[Guest]

Conversely, the LDS view of God, seems to me, to portray God as small.

 

Small and Big is relative.

 

The way I see it, the LDS view, God is eternally progressing.  God is, therefore, infinitely bigger than the Catholic view of God.

 

Where the great difference is, is in the view of Man.  The LDS view of Man places Man as so much bigger than any other Christian view of Man.  Man, has infinite potential.  The purpose of Man's creation, therefore, is more in line with God's message of Love.

Edited August 31, 2015 by anatess

[Jane_Doe]

 

No, I am not intimidated by God, I feel the same as Prison Chaplain, both small and not. Small, compared to God, indeed. And lifted up to Him, in and through Jesus Christ. There is the theological concept of holy fear, which should not be confused with intimidation. Holy fear, is a gift of the Spirit. Think of it more in terms of love, where the One who you love, is all in all to who you are, and so is given, in love, respect. For God, who desires our obedience, not in the form of rule-following, but out of a desire to please the One who is loved. The fear being, that we don't love as we ought. Love for God, produces a desire to be pleasing to God. In what God views as pleasing. Sinless, with love for others, "thyself" ( don't forget) and even our enemies. This desire, being a gift of the Holy Spirit. Our fear of God, being rooted in love. The Lord loves those who fear Him! The psalmist should be understood in light of our understanding, that in Christ, we have no fear of condemnation. He came to save not to condemn. So this fear of the Lord, is of a different kind, and not of condemnation.

 

 

Aren't fear and faith opposites?

Edited August 31, 2015 by Jane_Doe

[prisonchaplain]

Small and Big is relative.

 

The way I see it, the LDS view, God is eternally progressing.  God is, therefore, infinitely bigger than the Catholic view of God.

 

Where the great difference is, is in the view of Man.  The LDS view of Man places Man as so much bigger than any other Christian view of Man.  Man, has infinite potential.  The purpose of Man's creation, therefore, is more in line with God's message of Love.

 

The traditional view of God in Catholicism and Protestantism is that God is All-powerful-knowing-present.  His is not progressing, because He already is ALL.  He's not the "I am becoming," but the "I AM."  So, it's hard for me to understand how a God that is not yet ALL would be infinitely larger than a God is has always been. 

 

It is I who will be forever progressing.  Perhaps that makes me infinitely larger than I imagined?

[prisonchaplain]

Aren't fear and faith opposites?

 

Fear of failure, of the Devil, of opposition, etc.--these are the opposites of faith.  Yet, the Bible says that the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.  So fear of God is faith.

[Jane_Doe]

The traditional view of God in Catholicism and Protestantism is that God is All-powerful-knowing-present.  His is not progressing, because He already is ALL.  He's not the "I am becoming," but the "I AM."  So, it's hard for me to understand how a God that is not yet ALL would be infinitely larger than a God is has always been. 

 

It is I who will be forever progressing.  Perhaps that makes me infinitely larger than I imagined?

 

LDS folks would agree amongst themselves God:

A)  Does NOT grow in power (He's already got it all)

B)  Does grow in glory (our growth His crowning achievement).

 

As to whether He grows in knowledge or not... suffice it to say there's not as much agreement on that subject.  To my knowledge there is no official statement on the matter.  

 

 

I would agree that the LDS view of man differs from mainstream: LDS stress the child of God (positive outlook) vs mainstream fallen-pathetic-failure-creation (to grotesquely oversimplify things).

[Jane_Doe]

Fear of failure, of the Devil, of opposition, etc.--these are the opposites of faith.  Yet, the Bible says that the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.  So fear of God is faith.

 

For the beginnings, yes, but then do you keep the fear?  Do you still fear God after dedicating your life as His disciple?  

[prisonchaplain]

For the beginnings, yes, but then do you keep the fear?  Do you still fear God after dedicating your life as His disciple?  

 

We are too smart, in a way.  We've learned some basic psychology, are well aware of parental and spouse abuse, and we've seen gruesome images of warfare.  So, when we think of fear it's always negative and damaging.  In this context "fear" is a difficult term to use.  Still, I am convinced that when Solomon said that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom...and later that the meaning of life is to fear God and obey his commandments, he did not merely have the starting line in mind.  Rather, he's suggestion that this type of fear is the root, the foundation, the core of wisdom--again, the very meaning of life.  So, this fear does not make us cower.  It's not to produce anxiety, sleeplessness, or horror.  Instead, it sharpens me, motivates me, excites me. 

[blueskye]

Aren't fear and faith opposites?

There are different senses of fear. Most people think of fear, in the two sense of what is theologically called worldly fear, where we fear an evil or threat coming from the world around us. Or human fear, which is a fear of evil or a threat from another person. Neither of these fears have anything to do with "the fear of the Lord".

The two senses of fear concerned with our understanding of fear of God, are filial and servile. Servile fear lacks charity, or love, and is a fear of punishment. Servile fear is self centered, but yes, it can be a beginning point for some, or most, people. Servite fear, fears one's own punishment, but love for God is entirely absent, or not yet complete. Filial fear, is the sense of fear that we understand when the psalmist prays, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Filial fear, is based on love for God, and a has sense of offending God (also called sin), causing separation from God, which is feared. As one fears offending a spouse, child or parent, not out of worldly or human fear, but out of concern for those we love.

Faith, hope and charity...charity in its richest sense of selfless love, not in giving to a need. Rather, the need to give, out of love. These virtues, when directed towards God, strengthen our faith, our relationship to God, and our fear of being separated from God by sin, comes from a filial fear.

This is not the final, perfect type of love that God calls us to, but rare is the person that does not have a mix of servile and filial love. When a person loves God, and forsakes sin, to the point where sin is not even seen as a choice...then that person is following what Jesus commanded. Be perfect, as your Father in Heaven is perfect. John the Evangelist, tells us that God is love. So our understanding is, to be perfect as God is perfect, means to love as God loves. Selfless, without fear of punishment, and confident that the one who is giving freely of themselves, is loved in return. God has this confidence in us, it is we, who don't love as we ought. This type of perfect filial love, we elevate to a level called holy. God's love for us, is of course holy. For Catholic, Orthodox and a few other Christains, we recognize people who have or had a holy love for God, as Saints.

Edited September 1, 2015 by blueskye

[blueskye]

LDS folks would agree amongst themselves God:

A) Does NOT grow in power (He's already got it all)

B) Does grow in glory (our growth His crowning achievement).

As to whether He grows in knowledge or not... suffice it to say there's not as much agreement on that subject. To my knowledge there is no official statement on the matter.

I would agree that the LDS view of man differs from mainstream: LDS stress the child of God (positive outlook) vs mainstream fallen-pathetic-failure-creation (to grotesquely oversimplify things).

Our fallen nature is self evident. Just watch or read news for a week or two. But to focus only on our faults, is not what Christianity is about. Recognizing our faults, leads us to understand that we have a Need, this Need, is fulfilled by a Person, Jesus Christ. Sin and grace are theologically speaking, the two sides of the same coin. Our joy is in the grace side of the coin, but grace cannot be properly understood without recognizing that we sin, and are reliant on God's love and mercy. Something we neither merit or earn. Grace is God's charity, His perfect love, towards us.

In God's love and mercy, in and through Jesus Christ, we are made children of the Most High. The NT repeatedly tells us, we are children of the Father by adoption. There being one Son of God, Who's Sonship is shared with us.

Edited September 1, 2015 by blueskye

[Jane_Doe]

We are too smart, in a way.  We've learned some basic psychology, are well aware of parental and spouse abuse, and we've seen gruesome images of warfare.  So, when we think of fear it's always negative and damaging.  In this context "fear" is a difficult term to use.  Still, I am convinced that when Solomon said that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom...and later that the meaning of life is to fear God and obey his commandments, he did not merely have the starting line in mind.  Rather, he's suggestion that this type of fear is the root, the foundation, the core of wisdom--again, the very meaning of life.  So, this fear does not make us cower.  It's not to produce anxiety, sleeplessness, or horror.  Instead, it sharpens me, motivates me, excites me. 

 

I suppose... whenever theres a conversion experience in the scriptures, or one of God manifesting Himself, people's first reaction is fear: fear of getting guilty, fear of being small.  But then those fears subside when faith develops (the foundation of wisdom) and a wrongs are washed away.  I see the motivations of fear being replaced by motivations of love, and a feeling of confidence that things are in God's hands.

[pugiofidei]

Aren't fear and faith opposites?

Depends on the particular sense in which one means either word. "Faith", e.g., has both the sense of "trust", and the sense of "true-heartedness". "Fear", too, can mean the terror involved in running from a bear, or the sense of wonder involved in contemplating a Gothic arch.

When it comes to the "negative" sense of fear, holy John tells us the one thing that can cast it out. To wit: perfect love. Well, is your love perfect? Has it no more growth to do? Does it fit to the last whit the description John gives of it? If not, there is still good reason for fear to remain unoutcast. :)

[Byron]

I admit, coming from an LDS perspective, I do find this view to be restrictive.  If God just created us, and there's a huge line between creator and created, if we're never be like Him; if He just created us to Love us....

 

The situation you describe  reminds me of a child with his toys: created just to be loved (and indeed are cherished) but a toy will never be more than a toy--- it's only role is to be played with by the kid.   Am I off base?  

 

Admittedly, I am trying to understand by struggling to.   How does the above view make us God's children?   

 

The above does not make us God's children, we are made God's children through faith in Him.

 

12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God ...John 1:12

16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God ...Roman's 8:16

26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ .Galatians 3:26-27

 

See ywhat kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called zchildren of God; and so we are. The reason why athe world does not know us is that bit did not know him. 2 Beloved, we are zGod’s children cnow, and what we will be dhas not yet appeared; but we know that ewhen he appears1 fwe shall be like him, because gwe shall see him as he is. 3 And everyone who hthus hopes in him ipurifies himself as he is pure.

4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; jsin is lawlessness. 5 You know that khe appeared in order to ltake away sins, and min him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; nno one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, olet no one deceive you. pWhoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 qWhoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was rto destroy the works of the devil. 9 sNo one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s2 seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, tnor is the one who udoes not love his brother. 1John3: 1-10

 

As for never being more than a toy, we will ascend to be 'as angels':

 

³⁰ At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven

... Mathew 22:30

[LeSellers]

[God] created us for His pleasure- He wanted to create and love us. (4:11)

If, as you believe, He created us to love us, why did He create Hell? Why did He give us agency? (Even if it was so those who worship Him forever will not be simple slaves, this is still megalomania.)

Even in a non-Calvinist theology, the God Who created people, knowing the the majority of us will end up in an eternal pit of fire, where we will never die, but always suffer, must be a cruel God, a vicious God, a sadistic God.

If He didn't know, He would not be omniscient. If He did, He's a monster.

The problem of evil has never been resolved under orthodox theology, it cannot be.

Lehi

Edited November 20, 2015 by LeSellers

[Maureen]

Lehi, are you arguing that you don't believe God created mankind out of love?

 

M.

[LeSellers]

Lehi, are you arguing that you don't believe God created mankind out of love?

In a sense, but only in a limited sense, yes, I am. God "created" us because He is our Father. Fathers love their children — He loves us.

But this "creation" was not what you see it as. We are His children, and He loves us, but He created us in heaven as part of His function, His role as God. To be a God, He must have been a Father.

He was not lonely. He was not concerned about being worshiped. He wanted a Family, He was righteous enough to fulfill His duty.

Lehi

Edited November 21, 2015 by LeSellers

[LeSellers]

Lehi, are you arguing that you don't believe God created mankind out of love?

If He did "create" us out of love, why did He create a Hell to punish the ones He created out of love?

Seems incongruous.

Lehi

[Maureen]

If He did "create" us out of love, why did He create a Hell to punish the ones He created out of love?

Seems incongruous.

Lehi

 

Scripture says that God created everything and hell was created mainly for the devil and his angels. Are you saying that God isn't allowed to create whatever he wants?

 

M.

[LeSellers]

Scripture says that God created everything and hell was created mainly for the devil and his angels.

So, God created the devil and his angels. Did He create them out of love or hate?

Are you saying that God isn't allowed to create whatever he wants?

No, I'm saying that it is inconsistent to claim God created us because He loves us, yet He, knowing that vast majority of His loved creatures will end up in an unending torture chamber, went ahead and created it.

Lehi