Who likes bible questions?

[SGMan]

Just a question about worthiness and being filthy. In Romans 7, I read...

¹⁷ So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. ¹⁸ For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. ¹⁹ For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. ²⁰ Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

vs. 17 and 20 both say the same thing. That once we have become alive in Christ, it is no longer us that sins. If we aren't sinners when sin that dwells in us does the deed, why are we held to be filthy and not worthy?

In 1 Corinthians 6 it sounds to me like our justifications is a one-time thing. Read...

Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men ¹⁰ nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. ¹¹ And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
 

[Lakumi]

So what's the question?

[pam]

In regards to your question...Hugh B. Brown had this to say:

 

Hugh B. Brown

"Each man or boy, whatever his age or his station in life, is subject to the temptation to destroy himself by reason of a God-given power which all of us have. All of us who know good sometimes feel within ourselves the possibility of evil, and while we may condemn sincerely and without any hypocrisy the evil in us, we are conscious that at times we ourselves are tempted to do the very thing we hate, and in doing it we hate ourselves as well as the thing we do. I think this caused Paul to admit, '. . . the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.' (Romans 7:19.)

 

"Real character is formed in the midst of the battles of the soul. Christ offered peace, not in the sense of freedom from disturbance, but in the midst of disturbance. When He said, 'Peace, be still,' it was in the midst of a storm. We need to develop within ourselves the kind of self-control that will enable us in the midst of disturbance to find the peace that comes into the soul of a man who is living as he knows he should live." (The Abundant Life [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1965], 127.)

[Just_A_Guy]

Like Pam, I see Paul as dwelling on the dual nature of the converted spirit versus the weak flesh (see Romans 7:22-25), and looking forward to a future purification of the body as well (8:11-13; 21-28). In the meantime we are to continue leaning on God's power, trusting His love, and hoping for our future redemption--the assurance of which Paul offers forcefully in the latter verses of Chapter 8.

Paul is very clear throughout Romans that while our sinful natures may not be wholly escapable in the here-and-now, that does not give us license to wallow or revel in our failings. Rather we are to recognize them for the weaknesses that they are, and devote as much of our wills as we can to avoiding them--understanding, of course, that the final redemption comes from God through His Son and not through our own poor efforts.

[Quin]

I've realized I was quoting for the source I read best (not kjv) ... Amd since my interpretation is the same as everyone else's (duality)...rather than dig out alternate sources I've edited to delete.

Thx!

Q

[SGMan]

So what's the question?

How can we become filthy if we aren't the ones sinning? How can we lose our worthiness once we receive the righteousness of Christ?

[SGMan]

Like Pam, I see Paul as dwelling on the dual nature of the converted spirit versus the weak flesh (see Romans 7:22-25), and looking forward to a future purification of the body as well (8:11-13; 21-28). In the meantime we are to continue leaning on God's power, trusting His love, and hoping for our future redemption--the assurance of which Paul offers forcefully in the latter verses of Chapter 8.

Paul is very clear throughout Romans that while our sinful natures may not be wholly escapable in the here-and-now, that does not give us license to wallow or revel in our failings. Rather we are to recognize them for the weaknesses that they are, and devote as much of our wills as we can to avoiding them--understanding, of course, that the final redemption comes from God through His Son and not through our own poor efforts.

Our final redemption was completed by his death?

Colossians 1:20-22

And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,

[MrShorty]

How can we become filthy if we aren't the ones sinning? How can we lose our worthiness once we receive the righteousness of Christ?

 

It is an interesting question, though I'm still not sure I understand the question fully, nor do I think I will fully understand the answer when (and if) we come up with an answer. In an attempt to clarify the question, it seems to me that it is headed in one (or both) of two possible directions:

 

1) My first reaction to these questions is to wonder if you are thinking about questions of "free will" or, what LDS call "agency." While I can in no way call myself an expert in the discussion, I know Christian philosophers have been discussing it for a very long time. Do we have free will, or are we puppets on a string? When we develop faith in Christ, is it because we chose to develop faith, or did God pull the "believe" string and we suddenly believed? When we go to church, is it because we wanted to go to church of our own will, or did God pull the "go to church" string and we went? Is this the kind of thing you want to discuss?

 

2) In another way, it looks like a question along the lines of "Do LDS believe in a variation of 'once saved always saved'?" Another question that Christianity has attempted to understand for a long time. Some do indeed believe that, once we have believed and/or done anything else necessary for salvation, that nothing we say or do or choose after that point can "unsave" us. Is that where you are headed with this?

[Just_A_Guy]

How can we become filthy if we aren't the ones sinning? How can we lose our worthiness once we receive the righteousness of Christ?

Through lack of repentance/submission to God.  Through allowing the sins/mistakes we will inevitably make, to turn our souls away from God and undo the conversion we once experienced.

 

Our final redemption was completed by his death?

Colossians 1:20-22

And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,

 

Paul clearly didn't think he had been fully and finally "delivered" as of the time he wrote Romans 7:24.  Whatever event or process we pass through at conversion that allows us to describe ourselves as "saved" or "redeemed", while vitally important, is apparently not equal to that final state in which we are resurrected and the earth has been finally purged of wickedness and pain.

[SGMan]

 

 

 Do we have free will, or are we puppets on a string?  Is this the kind of thing you want to discuss?

 

Do LDS believe in a variation of 'once saved always saved'? once we have believed and/or done anything else necessary for salvation, that nothing we say or do or choose after that point can "unsave" us. Is that where you are headed with this?

The first question is 'no' as I'm a firm believer in free agency.

To the second question, I'd say that is kind of where I was going. It seems that according to Paul, when we receive the righteousness of Christ, we die to our sin nature and are ressurrected with our new nature. After this event, sins committed aren't done by us anymore, but a nature that has been nailed to the cross with Christ. If this is the case, how are we resposible for our sins if Paul says, "It is not I that sin..."?

[SGMan]

Through allowing the sins/mistakes we will inevitably make, to turn our souls away from God and undo the conversion we once experienced.

 

But that is what Paul is saying that we aren't making these sins/mistakes. It's the sin nature that has been nailed to the cross and not our new nature in Christ. That is what justifies us, it seems.

[Just_A_Guy]

If our natures can be so neatly compartmentalized, then why does Paul describe himself as "wretched"?

What we do continues to influence what we are, even post-conversion. See Romans 6:15-16:

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

[Lakumi]

experienced when, when did everyone experience a conversion to God?

[Just_A_Guy]

Lakumi, are you asking for personal anecdotes; or are you taking issue you with my use of the term "we" in a discussion of an explicitly post-conversion theological issue in the context of an LDS-oriented Internet forum?

[Lakumi]

...

[MrShorty]

The first question is 'no' as I'm a firm believer in free agency.

To the second question, I'd say that is kind of where I was going. It seems that according to Paul, when we receive the righteousness of Christ, we die to our sin nature and are ressurrected with our new nature. After this event, sins committed aren't done by us anymore, but a nature that has been nailed to the cross with Christ. If this is the case, how are we resposible for our sins if Paul says, "It is not I that sin..."?

 

 

But that is what Paul is saying that we aren't making these sins/mistakes. It's the sin nature that has been nailed to the cross and not our new nature in Christ. That is what justifies us, it seems.

 

What do you think Paul is really trying to do in these kind of verses? Is he trying to say that this born again experience absolves us of all past and future sin,so we can resume our hedonistic lifestyle, free of guilt and responsibility for our actions? I tend not to think that is what he is trying to say here.

 

I think of it more like something I would here from a motivational speaker. When you are feeling despondent because you are not good enough, because you continue to make mistakes, don't let your past sin define who you are. Don't let recurring sin define who you are. When sin happens, pick yourself up and turn back to God.

 

I am reminded of Nephi's psalm in 2 Ne 4 (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/4?lang=eng). The pivotal verse seems to be 19: "my heart groaneth because of my sins. Nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted." I think the take home message is to avoid simply "groaning because of our sins", but remembering that we have put our faith and trust in Christ, and to remember that he can and will save us from our sins.

[SGMan]

Is he trying to say that this born again experience absolves us of all past and future sin,so we can resume our hedonistic lifestyle, free of guilt and responsibility for our actions? 

 

I think of it more like something I would here from a motivational speaker. When you are feeling despondent because you are not good enough, because you continue to make mistakes, don't let your past sin define who you are. Don't let recurring sin define who you are. When sin happens, pick yourself up and turn back to God.

 

I am reminded of Nephi's psalm in 2 Ne 4 (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/4?lang=eng). The pivotal verse seems to be 19: "my heart groaneth because of my sins. Nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted." I think the take home message is to avoid simply "groaning because of our sins", but remembering that we have put our faith and trust in Christ, and to remember that he can and will save us from our sins.

To the first question, no, clearly not.

//I think of it more like something I would here from a motivational speaker. When you are feeling despondent because you are not good enough, because you continue to make mistakes, don't let your past sin define who you are. Don't let recurring sin define who you are. When sin happens, pick yourself up and turn back to God.//

I like that.

//...and to remember that he can and will save us from our sins.//

And has.