Excommunications on the Rise.


onethatislazy
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Seems the amount of excommunications/people leaving the church have grown exponentially the last year or two.

 

Two more:

John Dehlin (Creator of the CES Letter, which discounts the origins of the restoration)

Kate Kelly (Founder of Ordain the Women)

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/12/us/two-activists-within-mormon-church-threatened-with-excommunication.html?src=twr&_r=3

 

Disciplinary actions are typically initiated by local bishops and church authorities, but Ms. Kelly and Mr. Dehlin were notified of the action against them on two consecutive days, leading them to suspect that the move was coordinated by officials in church headquarters in Salt Lake City.

 

 

 

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Grown exponentially?  Well, if that's true, it only makes sense with the divergence of good and evil occurring in the latter days.

 

I'm, frankly, surprised this didn't come on sooner, however. Seems to me that there's been a bit too much in the way of leniency for some of these extremists. 

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It's about dang time for John Dehlin.  I used to follow his facebook page, until I started wondering why I was following the page of someone who so openly was rejecting the truth claims of the church. 

 

Dude is in the chess club.  If you're in the chess club but love checkers more, you should go join the checkers club, not try to remake the chess club.

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Kate Kelly put up her own statement on the OW website.  (No, I won't post the link here.)  She's continuing forward, even though the church hearing will continue without her.  She's moved from the area... and even though she's been in contact with her Bishop... it's not always the Bishop's call.  If you are attacking the Church in a fundamental way, you can be excommunicated for apostasy.

 

This is where the quote in my forum signature applies.

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I have long felt that every bishop should go through the "profiles" on the ordain women and get to meeting with anyone they find their from their wards. Stop advocating for apostasy publicly. It is and always has been excommunicatable.

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I don't think the participants are "advocating apostasy".  I do think they have a point of view that they wanted to be heard.

 

After Elder Dallin H. Oaks gave that brilliant talk in Priesthood Session, the thinking and the position of the Church was made clear.  

 

To continue to assert for such change, after having received instruction on the principle... THAT is apostasy.

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I don't think the participants are "advocating apostasy".  I do think they have a point of view that they wanted to be heard.

 

After Elder Dallin H. Oaks gave that brilliant talk in Priesthood Session, the thinking and the position of the Church was made clear.  

 

To continue to assert for such change, after having received instruction on the principle... THAT is apostasy.

 

Not intentionally advocating apostasy, but advocating nonetheless.

 

Anyhow, I should clarify just in case my comment is read differently than I meant it...as tends to occur sometimes.  I am not saying everyone on there should be ex'd. Just spoken to, made aware that it's a problem, etc. In extreme cases where there is a rebellious and apostate attitude then church discipline might be considered. But no one should be happily tearing down the church unawares as they think "I just want my point of view to be heard."

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Luckily we've outlawed burning at the stake. Many of my fellow brothers and sisters are so filled with the light of Christ that they would gladly strike the match if that was an option. Sad really.

 

That is extreme and unsupportable.

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Luckily we've outlawed burning at the stake. Many of my fellow brothers and sisters are so filled with the light of Christ that they would gladly strike the match if that was an option. Sad really.

There's always third world countries, maybe if they took a vacation...

(maybe that's a terribly out of taste joke but oh well :D)

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I'm surprised it took this long.  It's one thing when a person believes women will have the priesthood someday but another when they try to use the media to put pressure on the church to make a decision that is the Lord's decision.  I think the Church was quite kind to Kelly and she was warned.  There are a lot of people fragile in their faith and don't appreciate those who make it even worse with their influence.

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It's about dang time for John Dehlin.  I used to follow his facebook page, until I started wondering why I was following the page of someone who so openly was rejecting the truth claims of the church. 

 

Dude is in the chess club.  If you're in the chess club but love checkers more, you should go join the checkers club, not try to remake the chess club.

 

It's not that simple.

 

The chess club is very well funded.  The non-club-members respect the chess club because they play chess, not checkers.  There might be a few cool kids in the chess club who prefer checkers; but the kids who show up consistently and plan the activities and really make the club work, all prefer chess.

 

The checkers kids are simply incapable of building a club with the resources, clout, or devoted membership that the chess club enjoys; and they know it.  Besides--someone already tried to set up a checkers club.  It still exists, and it's sort of hobbling along, but it's not even in the same league as the chess club and everyone knows it.

 

But the checkers kids don't understand that it's their hobby that's the problem.  They think that if they could just get their maws into the chess kids' money, respect, and devoted members; that they could really make the most awesomist checkers club ever.  But they know the chess club kids won't stand for it; so the short term plan is to blur the distinction between checkers and chess. 

 

And the Chessmaster has just spoilt their game.

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The church made a statement today in response to questions from the media regarding disciplinary actions:

 

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/

 

"The Church is a family made up of millions of individuals with diverse backgrounds and opinions. There is room for questions and we welcome sincere conversations. We hope those seeking answers will find them and happiness through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

"Sometimes members’ actions contradict Church doctrine and lead others astray. While uncommon, some members in effect choose to take themselves out of the Church by actively teaching and publicly attempting to change doctrine to comply with their personal beliefs. This saddens leaders and fellow members. In these rare cases, local leaders have the responsibility to clarify false teachings and prevent other members from being misled. Decisions are made by local leaders and not directed or coordinated by Church headquarters.

 

"Actions to address a person’s membership and standing in their congregation are convened after lengthy periods of counseling and encouragement to reconsider behavior. Ultimately, the door is always open for people to return to the Church."

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I happened to see a comment on the Ordain Women facebook page.  It pretty much said that if there isn't room in the church for these two there isn't room for her too.

 

So I can see how there many be a few that will leave the church but use this as their excuse.  

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Can we straighten something out in this thread, please?  In case you only read the OP, but not the linked article, you might not realize that neither Kate Kelly nor John Dehlin have been excommunicated.  They've each been notified, by their own individual local leaders, that they are now subject to official Church disciplinary action.  Such action has not yet taken place.  They are currently still members of the Church, in good standing, even, so far as we can tell.

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I happened to see a comment on the Ordain Women facebook page.  It pretty much said that if there isn't room in the church for these two there isn't room for her too.

 

So I can see how there many be a few that will leave the church but use this as their excuse.  

 

I read that same quote, too.

 

I really feel for that person.  I feel for Kate Kelly and for John Dehlin.  The events of the coming weeks (and months?) for these two will be difficult for me emotionally.  I sympathize with many of Kate's ideas, though not her methods.  Or at least, not the methods of Ordain Women.  I don't know enough about John Dehlin to say the same for him.

 

I experience a lot of cognitive dissonance as a Mormon Feminist.  I empathize with those women who have difficulties in the Church, perceived or otherwise.  I don't currently support female ordination, though if current policies (or doctrines) are changed, I definitely won't be sorry to see it happen.  I love the prophet(s) and do my best to follow their teachings.  But I also feel that there is a lot of room for change in policies, practices, and administrative areas within the Church.  I have a strong testimony of the Gospel, but I also have strong personal opinions and feelings.  Sometimes it's hard to reconcile those with each other.  And so I wage war in my head.

I trust the Church to be discreet with regard to disciplinary actions.  They have strict no-comment policies in place for high-profile (and other) cases like this.  John Dehlin and Kate Kelly each contact media outlets, it appears, and they're welcome to do so.  I feel that doing so, to an extent, is digging their own graves, however.

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I just had a talk with my daughter because of some sisters, not brothers, but sisters were shoving the "peter priesthood" view of women in the church.  This greatly disturbs me because all my girls tell me that it's usually not the men, it's the women that perpertrate this thinking.  Quite frankly, besides being sealed in the temple and enduring to the end, men need to be ordained to the priesthood to attain the highest level of celestial glory.  Women need only to be born.  I kind-of read something into this.

 

In any case, this whole "exponential" growth in excommunications is just plain silly unless someone can come up with numbers to support that position.  Otherwise, it's two people who have an agenda, who are polarized in their thinking, and have been invited to a disiplinary hearing.  I don't know much about Kate Kelly but I have listened to John Dehlin in interviews and podcasts and he is a wolf in sheeps clothing.

 

But I've been on the excommunicated side and I say from my own and other's experience, if they are excommunicated, they are in for some of the darkest, most challenging days of their lives because they will be buffeted by the advisary in ways they will never expect.  They will have left only two roads to go: setting aside their pride, getting some humility and walk towards the light of Christ, or continue down the path they are on and drown in the darkness.  There is no middle ground. 

 

So before they or anyone begins to blame the church for making their lives difficult, or creating difficulty for them or their families, they ought to take responsibility and accept what is to come because they got into this knowing that the outcome would end up looking like it looks now. 

 

Their crying foul is unimpressive.  Their letting the world know only makes transparent their contempt and proves their agenda and disingenuousness.

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Peter Priesthood view?

 

Women are for cooking, sewing, children, and being helpless without a priesthood holder in the home.  Oh yea, don't pick up that heavy item, that's a man's job and don't even think of dating anyone who's not an RM.  While I don't begrudge a woman who chooses to live that life, we (me and my kids mom) are of the school of thought that our kids must be taught independent living and thinking.  Besides, our lineages are filled with extremely strong women who had to do a lot on their own in a time when that was not traditionally acceptable.

 

So we raised our girls to be strong, independent, educated, driven, and thinkers who are just as capable handling power tools as they are being domestic goddesses.  And yes, they handle power tools.  They even called and had me talk them through jumping a car battery while they were in the rain. 

 

Maybe it's the overly-protective father in me but it gives me shivers to think of any of my daughters being wholly dependent on a man without any skills or education of their own.

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