Descent Before Ascent


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 6 He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth; (D&C 88:6)

Descent Before Ascent. As shown in the very ordinance of baptism, one must descend below the water before he can ascend up again as a new creature. The whole purpose of mortality gives us an opportunity to descend from God, in hopes to ascend to something greater. Eternal Life.

 

This idea is taught throughout scripture. 

 

  • A fanciful and flowery and heated imagination beware of; because the things of God are of deep import; and time, and experience, and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out. Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God.

    -Joseph Fielding Smith (editor), Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 137

 

What did he mean by this? Why must you contemplate the darkest abyss to have your mind reach the utmost heaven? To commune with God? This was Seen at age 14.

 

15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

 16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. (JSH)

 

This was seen when he received the fulness of the Father and the Son.

 

19 And while we meditated upon these things, the Lord touched the eyes of our understandings and they were opened, and theglory of the Lord shone round about.

 20 And we beheld the glory of the Son, on the right hand of theFather, and received of his fulness;

...

 25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,

 26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

 44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

 45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

 46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;

 47 Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again;(D&C 76)

 

Light and Darkness. To comprehend the Light we must contemplate the Darkness. 

 

Avraham Gileadi in Isaiah Decoded talks about this a lot.

 

 

Becoming like God, then, doesn’t consist so much of adopting new ideas but of 

discarding old ones that narrow our view of life and make us prisoners of prejudice. Each time 
we complete a new cycle of descent before ascent, passing through the refiner’s fire, we peel off 
another layer, like a serpent shedding its skin or like a fruit whose outside hides its inner 
sweetness. Healing thus consists largely of unlayering, unbinding the “bands of iniquity,” giving 
the inner child of God a new lease on life. Each rebirth on a higher level is like an awakening 
from sleep to a deeper awareness. As we ascend, we become a new manifestation of the divine 
already living within us—a true son or daughter of God. (pg 80, digital copy)
The earth’s seasonal changes—its “death” in winter and revival in summer—testify of 
life’s cyclical pattern. Isaiah often uses imagery from nature. Those whom the servant empowers, 
for example, he calls the “oaks of righteousness.” (Isaiah 61:3; emphasis added.) However, an 
oak tree loses its leaves in the fall and sprouts new ones in the spring as it grows in stature.  
It goes through descent before ascent. Its “humiliation,” as it loses the leafy glory it had gained, 
precedes its “exaltation,” as it grows even mightier than before (see Figure 58). A cyclical 
pattern in our physical lives, too, is a type of our spiritual lives, as when we become ill but 
recover, stronger and more immune than before. ...
 
Persons in an ascending mode are less likely to be critical of others when they see 
misfortunes occurring to them than will those who are in a descending mode. Job’s companions 
were convinced Job was guilty of transgression when they saw the evils that befell him, which 
were common covenant curses. But Job was blameless of the things of which they accused him. 
In fact, Job was a type of the world’s future Messiah, and of all who suffer innocently as part of a 
descent before ascent, passing through “ruin” before “rebirth,” “suffering” before “salvation,” 
“humiliation” before “exaltation,” and so forth. Thus, God “blessed the latter end of Job more 
than his beginning” (see Figure 59). (Job 42:12.) (pg 84-85)

 

 

 

In the light of Isaiah’s theology, the grail cup commemorates the suffering Savior, who 

pays the price of justice for those who repent of their sins. He drinks the cup of the wrath of God 
in their stead, paying with his blood to secure their “salvation” (see Chapter 8). For all who act as 
proxy saviors, drinking from this cup follows the pattern of Israel’s God. It is an integral part of 
their descent before ascent, called by Jesus a new “baptism.” (Matthew 20:22–23.) Those who 
thus serve God by serving others are reborn on the highest levels of the ladder, receiving God’s  
promise of immortality and eternal life. Those who become seraphs may, like Enoch and Elijah, 
assume immortality even on earth.  (pg 145)

 

A type of such a “descent before ascent” 

was Jacob, ancestor of the nation of Israel, who fled to Haran to escape the wrath of Esau, but 
who returned in glory to the Promised Land.  (147)

There are many examples of descents before ascents in the book of Mormon. 

 

One is King Lamoni (Alma 18-19)

41 And he began to cry unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, have mercy; according to thy abundant mercy which thou hast had upon the people of Nephi, have upon me, and my people.

 42 And now, when he had said this, he fell unto the earth, as if he were dead....

 6 Now, this was what Ammon desired, for he knew that king Lamoni was under the power of God; he knew that the dark veil ofunbelief was being cast away from his mind, and the light which did light up his mind, which was the light of the glory of God, which was a marvelous light of his goodness—yea, this light had infused such joy into his soul, the cloud of darkness having been dispelled, and that the light of everlasting life was lit up in his soul, yea, he knew that this had overcome his natural frame, and he was carried away in God—

 

Abraham had three major trials or descents. His self, wife, and son. Abraham on the altar about to be killed by the priest of Elkanah, Sarah about to be raped by Pharaoh, and Abraham about to kill Isaac. All which were promises to him, which in the end he was asked to sacrifice. He was promised an endless posterity through issac but later asked to sacrifice that promise. Al things were eventually returned unto him for righteousness.

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The principle is not complicated.  In order to ascend we need to be humble and have genuine appreciation and gratitude - for blessings, for others that help us and for those struggling with difficulty.  It would appear that even G-d (in the example of Jesus Christ) would condescend and endure the worse prior to being justly and honestly able to  stand in the light of glory.  I have come to believe that this necessity to descend was the single failure of Lucifer as well as the litmus test between all that is good and evil.

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I accept within our gospel doctrine the idea of condescension, that the Savior descend below all things in order to comprehend all things pertainings to his mission on earth.

 

If we look at our doctrine, technically anybody who obtained a body (no matter the time of life upon earth) descended.  We moved from a higher state in the prescence of our Father in heaven, to a lower state (the natural man) -- a necessity to becoming like God.

 

Joseph Smith's quote regarding personal humility and contemplation allows an individual to see themselves as who they really are -- the spirit.  Without recognizing who we really are, we cannot grow toward perfection, the same perfection as our Father in heaven.

 

As pertaining to the doctrine of condescension, Descent Before Ascent, I wouldn't agree they are congruous.  I would agree with Traveler's response that this quote deals with becoming humble, removing ourselves from the natural man and becoming a Saint by following the enticings of the spirit and becoming like a little child.

 

In scripture the greatest examples, at least to me, pertaining to condescension are the lives of Joseph in Egypt and Moses.  They are great exemplars of the life of Christ.  True condescension.  Joseph a prince to his Father Jacob -- a chosen vessel.  He would have received all his father had.  Sold into slavery, only to become second unto the Pharaoh, which none of us will experience to this level.

 

I would have to further understand why you present Lamoni as a descent before ascent, because the verse appears to me to allow us to understand the importance of humility.  These individuals humbled themselves such that their eyes were opened. 

 

I would have to understand further your meaning provided in the example of Jacob and Esau.  As to my minds eye, Jacob had a choice, he simply chose the way of life.  I don't see the principle of condescension truly being taught in this experience; however, unless you simply are meaning he chose a better path (humility), by which the Lord blessed him. 

 

What degree then must we all experience this descent in order to ascend and obtain eternal life/exaltation?  And by whom are we compared?  The Lord's descent, Abraham's descent, Joseph's in Egypt descent, etc.

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My perspective is that we all started out and some sort of shapeless indescribably amoeba intelligences before we were born as spirit children of God (I know that's just conjecture...but...) and that we could not have been in a lower state. We did not descend from there to ascend. When we became spirit children of God, whatever that entailed, it was pure ascension.

 

I know that's moderately unsupportable...but that's my thinking.

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Oh...and to add...I would also presume that if you graphed an intelligence's rise from intelligence through the estates to ultimate exaltation, that whereas there would be dips and valleys, it would, as a whole, be one great ascension as well.

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Intelligence??? do you what to match yours against brainless slime mold?  Enjoy the link - long perhaps but most interesting

 

http://www.nature.com/news/how-brainless-slime-molds-redefine-intelligence-1.11811

 

At least it is smart enough to know what is best for it to eat - How many humans show that kind of intelligence?

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Intelligence??? do you what to match yours against brainless slime mold?  Enjoy the link - long perhaps but most interesting

 

http://www.nature.com/news/how-brainless-slime-molds-redefine-intelligence-1.11811

 

At least it is smart enough to know what is best for it to eat - How many humans show that kind of intelligence?

 

The slime mold is learned, so it thinks it is wise. But its wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth the slime mold not.

 

:nana:

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I love Isaiah Decoded by Avraham Gileadi. For those unfamiliar, decades ago, a professor named William Brownlee discovered in the Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah a seven part division of Isaiah's book in two parallel blocks of chapters. At that time scholars barely determined that biblical books even had literary structures. So Brownlee's discovery was mostly passed over. Another professor, a colleague of Brownlee by the name of Roland Harrison, Gileadi's mentor, suggested that Gileadi explore this structure for his doctoral thesis. And so a chiasm of history was examined that became what Gileadi describes as Seven Spiritual Categories or Isaiah's Ladder.

 
The seven part division is patterned so:
 
Isaiah 1-33
1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a-7a
 
Isaiah 34-66
1b-2b-3b-4b-5b-6b-7b
 
In the book of Genesis 28:12-17, we read about Jacob's ladder that reached from earth to heaven, which he called the "gate of heaven." Jehovah was visible at the top.
 
 

 

12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

 
 13 And, behold, the Lord stood above it, and said, I am the Lord God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
 
 14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
 
 15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
 
 16 ¶And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the Lord is in this place; and I knew it not.
 
 17 And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.

 

 

 
Isaiah built a theology around this idea as a way to define our relationship to God, or rather His role toward us and our role toward Him. In this literary pattern, Isaiah describes his own ladder, which symbolizes the different ways of living that people choose, which either move them up the ladder to God or down the ladder toward destruction. 
 
So using the code above (1a corresponding with 1b, etc) we have the following structure in categories corresponding with chapters:
 
-Ruin and Rebirth (1-5, 34-35)
--Rebellion and Compliance (6-8, 36-40)
---Punishment and Deliverance (9-12, 41-46)
----Humiliation and Exaltation (13-23, 47)
---Suffering and Salvation (24-27,48-54)
--Disloyalty and Loyalty (28-31, 55-59)
-Disinheritance and Inheritance (32-33, 60-66)
 
There are distinctions within each level or set of choices we make that brings covenant blessings or covenant cursings. A ladder appears when we recognize these categories of people as an ascending order, from the lowest (or farthest from being like God) to the highest (most like Him). John made it clear in one of his epistles when we obtain the highest rung:
 

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 
We find ourselves at any given time on one rung or another depending on the choices we make, or in other words, what spiritual laws we live or choose not to live. We are either ascending or descending. And if we are idle, well that isn't good either. You gotta climb. We qualify for God's presence (D&C 76: 51-58) when we enter heaven. Some people attain this state in this life. Others fail even after death. 
 
This seven part structure presents models on each level, or on each rung. We participate in the role of each model as we ascend or descend. Isaiah's "ladder" to heaven looks like this:
 
Jehovah-God of Israel
Seraphim-Angelic Emissaries
Sons/Daughters-Servants of God
Zion/Jerusalem-God's Covenant People
Jacob/Israel-Believers in a Creator-God
Babylon-The Wicked of the World
King of Assyria/Babylon-Perdition
 
At the bottom is depicted the archtyrant who conquers and destroys. People on the lowest rungs resemble the archtyrant as they follow his example of despotism. The more we resemble him, the lower we descend. Most of us are on the Jacob/Israel rung until we have experienced the baptism of fire. Conversely, the more we become like Jesus Christ, the higher we ascend. By looking at Israels' history and its people we can compare ourselves to them and see where we are on the ladder. Isaiah provides that yardstick for us. We don't need to wait until we die to ascend or descend. Knowing exactly where we stand  NOW puts to rest any false "notions of grandeur" that we have about ourselves.
 
It is entirely possible to ascend multiple rungs during this mortal life according to our desires, diligence and the Lord's will and timing. Joseph Smith continually urged the saints to seek their calling and election. Our Savior personally invites us through the Bible, the BoM and the D&C to seek Him, thus receiving the "Other Comforter." The City of Enoch ascended beyond what we normally have as a covenant people. We do not need to wait until some future time beyond mortal death to begin climbing. By having overcome that great gulf, Christ enabled us to progress in this manner.
 
p.s. -- Throughout scripture we read about the descent and ascent of various prophets and people. Isaiah is a primary example. So is Abraham and Joseph who was sold into Egypt. Job is yet another. Moses, Lehi, Alma, and many more are on display, each representing a "type" of ascension. And of course, Jesus Christ descended below us all and so likewise, He ascended above all. Indeed we must descend before we can ascend. This principle is found throughout nature, even the universe. A tree must lose all its leaves and it becomes dormant through a period of descent (winter) before it is blossoms with life again. It is how the tree grows. Each season it is reborn. 
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I love Isaiah Decoded by Avraham Gileadi. For those unfamiliar, decades ago, a professor named William Brownlee discovered in the Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah a seven part division of Isaiah's book in two parallel blocks of chapters. At that time scholars barely determined that biblical books even had literary structures. So Brownlee's discovery was mostly passed over. Another professor, a colleague of Brownlee by the name of Roland Harrison, Gileadi's mentor, suggested that Gileadi explore this structure for his doctoral thesis. And so a chiasm of history was examined that became what Gileadi describes as Seven Spiritual Categories or Isaiah's Ladder.

 
The seven part division is patterned so:
 
Isaiah 1-33
1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a-7a
 
Isaiah 34-66
1b-2b-3b-4b-5b-6b-7b
 
In the book of Genesis 28:12-17, we read about Jacob's ladder that reached from earth to heaven, which he called the "gate of heaven." Jehovah was visible at the top.
 
 

 

 

 
Isaiah built a theology around this idea as a way to define our relationship to God, or rather His role toward us and our role toward Him. In this literary pattern, Isaiah describes his own ladder, which symbolizes the different ways of living that people choose, which either move them up the ladder to God or down the ladder toward destruction. 
 
So using the code above (1a corresponding with 1b, etc) we have the following structure in categories corresponding with chapters:
 
-Ruin and Rebirth (1-5, 34-35)
--Rebellion and Compliance (6-8, 36-40)
---Punishment and Deliverance (9-12, 41-46)
----Humiliation and Exaltation (13-23, 47)
---Suffering and Salvation (24-27,48-54)
--Disloyalty and Loyalty (28-31, 55-59)
-Disinheritance and Inheritance (32-33, 60-66)
 
There are distinctions within each level or set of choices we make that brings covenant blessings or covenant cursings. A ladder appears when we recognize these categories of people as an ascending order, from the lowest (or farthest from being like God) to the highest (most like Him). John made it clear in one of his epistles when we obtain the highest rung:
 
 
 
We find ourselves at any given time on one rung or another depending on the choices we make, or in other words, what spiritual laws we live or choose not to live. We are either ascending or descending. And if we are idle, well that isn't good either. You gotta climb. We qualify for God's presence (D&C 76: 51-58) when we enter heaven. Some people attain this state in this life. Others fail even after death. 
 
This seven part structure presents models on each level, or on each rung. We participate in the role of each model as we ascend or descend. Isaiah's "ladder" to heaven looks like this:
 
Jehovah-God of Israel
Seraphim-Angelic Emissaries
Sons/Daughters-Servants of God
Zion/Jerusalem-God's Covenant People
Jacob/Israel-Believers in a Creator-God
Babylon-The Wicked of the World
King of Assyria/Babylon-Perdition
 
At the bottom is depicted the archtyrant who conquers and destroys. People on the lowest rungs resemble the archtyrant as they follow his example of despotism. The more we resemble him, the lower we descend. Most of us are on the Jacob/Israel rung until we have experienced the baptism of fire. Conversely, the more we become like Jesus Christ, the higher we ascend. By looking at Israels' history and its people we can compare ourselves to them and see where we are on the ladder. Isaiah provides that yardstick for us. We don't need to wait until we die to ascend or descend. Knowing exactly where we stand  NOW puts to rest any false "notions of grandeur" that we have about ourselves.
 
It is entirely possible to ascend multiple rungs during this mortal life according to our desires, diligence and the Lord's will and timing. Joseph Smith continually urged the saints to seek their calling and election. Our Savior personally invites us through the Bible, the BoM and the D&C to seek Him, thus receiving the "Other Comforter." The City of Enoch ascended beyond what we normally have as a covenant people. We do not need to wait until some future time beyond mortal death to begin climbing. By having overcome that great gulf, Christ enabled us to progress in this manner.
 
p.s. -- Throughout scripture we read about the descent and ascent of various prophets and people. Isaiah is a primary example. So is Abraham and Joseph who was sold into Egypt. Job is yet another. Moses, Lehi, Alma, and many more are on display, each representing a "type" of ascension. And of course, Jesus Christ descended below us all and so likewise, He ascended above all. Indeed we must descend before we can ascend. This principle is found throughout nature, even the universe. A tree must lose all its leaves and it becomes dormant through a period of descent (winter) before it is blossoms with life again. It is how the tree grows. Each season it is reborn. 

 

 

In other words: Keep the commandments.

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Well, I did write that hastily and why I deleted it as it came off judgmental. The answer is yes and no. He has wanted much more from us than we have now, else we would have ascended as Enoch. This is what Joseph Smith labored ceaselessly to teach the saints, thus the parable of the nobleman, but that is entirely another topic.

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Well, I did write that hastily and why I deleted it as it came off judgmental. The answer is yes and no. He has wanted much more from us than we have now, else we would have ascended as Enoch. This is what Joseph Smith labored ceaselessly to teach the saints, thus the parable of the nobleman, but that is entirely another topic.

 

I deleted my reply as well then. No reason to push it if you felt like it wasn't expressed as you meant.

 

I have no doubt that most are not perfectly doing as God would have them in full. But what God would have them do is keep the commandments.

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I would be more curious to understand how others are interpreting "descend"?  Descend - to pass from a higher state to a lower state.  

 

How did Isaiah pass from a higher state to a lower state in scripture?  Are individuals referring to his death?

 

Joseph, Jacob's son, is easily recognized -- a prince, to a slave, to second in command.  

 

Moses, prince, to a shepherd, to the Lord's anointed as a deliverer.  

 

If our descent, is simply -- trial -- I would agree with the sentiment.  Our witness is after the trial of our faith.

 

As to the Lord's condescension, I don't see as many as some suggest that are throughout scripture.  The tree is a wonderful analogy, but not sure if this is truly a descent as described, from a higher state to a lower state.  The tree's status hasn't changed -- simply a period of dormancy, rejuvenation/preparation, for an upcoming season.  

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Yes, in the form of trial. It is all a trial. What Moses faced, Joseph, the Savior, etc. I recommend reading Isaiah Decoded by Gileadi. He really does a good job of explaining it better than I could. With Isaiah, he descended to ruin to experience rebirth. He endured the trials befitting one who ascended to Seraphim status. His humiliation and martyrdom became his exaltation by the Lord. He became an emissary for the Lord. In other words, he became a minister of salvation to the people of Israel. None but King Hezekiah hearkened to Isaiah. Isiah describes his trial and also the assurance from the Lord of His place before Him. The analogy is simply a type of death and rebirth on a new or higher state. Seeds become saplings. Saplings become trees and so on. Another analogy or type would be a caterpillar experiencing a type of death to become reborn as a butterfly. 

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Anddenex, as I pondered your question more, another example came to mind, which might also help. When Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden, they went from a Terrestrial state to a Telestial state in order for man to be. "Adam fell that man might be..."

 

Thank you.  This example I agree with the concept of descending.  My original comment mentioned, "If we look at our doctrine, technically anybody who obtained a body (no matter the time of life upon earth) descended.  We moved from a higher state in the presence of our Father in heaven, to a lower state (the natural man) -- a necessity to becoming like God."

 

The fall of Adam surely allowed each of us also to descend in order to ascend.  

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Indeed. We were born into this mortal life, having descended. We were given a new name. Michael became Adam. I suspect that with each rebirth, or ascension to a higher state, we receive a new name. When Jacob ascended, he was given a new name (Israel). So was Abram (Abraham). This occurs when a covenant relationship is established with God. It means knowing Him (as the bro. of Jared knew, no longer having faith). In any case, I really think you would enjoy reading Isaiah Decoded by Avraham Gileadi if you haven't yet. 

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Indeed. We were born into this mortal life, having descended. We were given a new name. Michael became Adam. I suspect that with each rebirth, or ascension to a higher state, we receive a new name. When Jacob ascended, he was given a new name (Israel). So was Abram (Abraham). This occurs when a covenant relationship is established with God. It means knowing Him (as the bro. of Jared knew, no longer having faith). In any case, I really think you would enjoy reading Isaiah Decoded by Avraham Gileadi if you haven't yet. 

The idea of changing one's name is very ancient and denotes a covenant relationship.  This tradition continues today even in the marriage relationship where a wife takes upon her the name of her husband.  I have always thought it interesting that the woman takes the husband's name.  In the same manner Abram takes upon him the name of G-d adding "Am" for the name of "I AM" and Jacob taking on the name "El" in Israel.  It is interesting that angels were most often given the name "El" at the end of their name.  In the case of a marriage the woman likewise ends her name with the name of her husband.

 

I believe there is importance in taking on a name through covenant but sadly modern feminism and male unrighteous dominion often get in the way of rational discussion as to what significance of such a covenant has in the eternal scheme of things.  Even in this thread the idea of sacrifice and service (descending) by covenant for another is not necessarily considered a good thing.

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I would be more curious to understand how others are interpreting "descend"?  Descend - to pass from a higher state to a lower state.  

 

How did Isaiah pass from a higher state to a lower state in scripture?  Are individuals referring to his death?

 

Joseph, Jacob's son, is easily recognized -- a prince, to a slave, to second in command.  

 

Moses, prince, to a shepherd, to the Lord's anointed as a deliverer.  

 

If our descent, is simply -- trial -- I would agree with the sentiment.  Our witness is after the trial of our faith.

 

As to the Lord's condescension, I don't see as many as some suggest that are throughout scripture.  The tree is a wonderful analogy, but not sure if this is truly a descent as described, from a higher state to a lower state.  The tree's status hasn't changed -- simply a period of dormancy, rejuvenation/preparation, for an upcoming season.  

Great question.  I had the same one as I started to read this thread.  The descent is in terms of describing the temporary experience of mortality and all of its associated challenges and trials, not any change in character or self.  When Jesus descended below all His character did not descend but what He experienced was a greater burden, pain, suffering, level of empathy etc.  That descent does not describe His state of being a glorified King.  It says in the scriptures that He increased in stature amongst man and God.  He did not deccrease in stature even though what He experienced was descended below all.  Descent does not equate with becoming evil or sinful but is associated with being exposed to carnality, sensuality and devilshness.

 

So, I agree, the descent is in terms of the trial, the test, how much our hands are tied behind our backs and we are blindfolded from all the help we had before but who we really are, our spiritual self has not fallen unless we take on the experience as self.  If one takes on the suffering and associated despair and hopelessness that such a state brings then the spirit self becomes fallen but one can remain protected from such affects through Christ who overcame all, He was not affected by His descent in a negative way, it was not internalized but overcome.

 

Mosiah 16; " But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature, and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the devil hath all power over him. Therefore he is as though there was no redemption made, being an enemy to God; and also is the devil an enemy to God."

 

We are all at risk of making a temporary condition into a permanent way of being but there is hope in knowing this 'shall all pass'.   D&C 122; 5 "If thou art called to pass through tribulation ..."  7;"... and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.

 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he?"    The "pass through" is an experience for our good.

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Ascent and descent, though oftentimes involves the physical, is essentially a spiritual journey. Case in point: when we descend in humility and enter a covenant relationship with the Lord and keep our end, we ascend spiritually. We inherit paradise, whereas those who descend spiritually, inherit prison. Coincidentally, this occurs upon a physical change (mortal death). Now consider that before this mortal sphere, Adam and Eve (mankind) ascended and inherited "paradise" when they were "created" or "born" or "reborn" in Eden. Then another descent occurred when Adam fell that men might be. We are continually ascending and descending from one creation to another, continually being reborn and being exalted.

 

The whole universe works this way, even the stars that are formed when they accumulate enough mass to start fusion, at which point they begin to give light. Adam's formation from the "dust" parallels the birth of a star. Just as we must obey laws to ascend to a higher status, so too, do cosmic bodies obey laws. Smaller bodies keep the "law" of the larger bodies (gravity, electrostatics). Moons orbit planets, while planets orbit stars, all of which, orbit a singularity at the center of the galaxy in a giant pattern. "The movement in unison of larger heavenly bodies and the lower nature of 'rogue' entities such as comets, asteroids and dust, parallel the 'oneness' of higher spiritual levels and the chaotic character of lower ones."-Avraham Gileadi

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Ascent and descent, though oftentimes involves the physical, is essentially a spiritual journey. Case in point: when we descend in humility and enter a covenant relationship with the Lord and keep our end, we ascend spiritually. We inherit paradise, whereas those who descend spiritually, inherit prison. Coincidentally, this occurs upon a physical change (mortal death). Now consider that before this mortal sphere, Adam and Eve (mankind) ascended and inherited "paradise" when they were "created" or "born" or "reborn" in Eden. Then another descent occurred when Adam fell that men might be. We are continually ascending and descending from one creation to another, continually being reborn and being exalted.

 

The whole universe works this way, even the stars that are formed when they accumulate enough mass to start fusion, at which point they begin to give light. Adam's formation from the "dust" parallels the birth of a star. Just as we must obey laws to ascend to a higher status, so too, do cosmic bodies obey laws. Smaller bodies keep the "law" of the larger bodies (gravity, electrostatics). Moons orbit planets, while planets orbit stars, all of which, orbit a singularity at the center of the galaxy in a giant pattern. "The movement in unison of larger heavenly bodies and the lower nature of 'rogue' entities such as comets, asteroids and dust, parallel the 'oneness' of higher spiritual levels and the chaotic character of lower ones."-Avraham Gileadi

It may be a spiritual journey but does the actual status of the indvidual change?

 

I may watch a movie about a historical event, such as a show on World War 2, and take a "journey" in my mind about the events of that day and even witness the evils of that day but I didn't actually participate in those evils or have a change in my current status that is equal to what is experienced.  I, in fact, may grow spiritually from taking such a journey.  By being exposed to such evil things I might appreciate even more the freedoms we have and have been strengthened spiritually from watching such a thing.  In other words, the "journey" may not directly correlate with the actual effects on the spirit self. 

 

When children are born into this world they are protected by the atoning sacrifice of Christ so that the effects of the Fall do not change their status even though they experience the journey.  Or do you believe that their spirits become fallen?  How about Christ, Himself, when he descended, did His spiritual status change or just His surroundings and what he was exposed to change, what he faced changed?  Or did He actually have a drop in spiritual status, making Him less than a glorious spirit being while He was here.

 

Often times we use words to imply that there is a covering, like the veil or even how we describe the body as the outer man as opposed to the inner man.  This makes is metaphorically speaking suggest that there can be an outer covering that is different than the status of the inner.  Just like if a put on a scary costume for a play does not mean that I am actually that person.  Or if I go scuba diving under the water, I am still the same person but in a descended place.  When an individual with Down's syndrome puts on that covering, does their spirit status take on the characteristics of that covering or does the spirit remain as it was under that covering, they are still their spirit self?  

 

We are told that our spirit is the same spirit that leaves this world when we die.  I would assume that the spirit that occupies our current body is also the same spirit that existed before we had the body as well.  Or do you think there actually is a change, a descent, in the spirit as one enters the body at birth.  I believe there is a descent when we sin, there can be changes to the spirit but otherwise, such as what happens before the age of accountability, the spirit remains the same pure and innocent spirit it was before even though they are in a descended place.   Spiritual descent, as in the use of term refering to spiritual status, occurs with sin.

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It may be a spiritual journey but does the actual status of the indvidual change?

 

 

I believe so, yes. Jesus Christ is both a Father and a Son. Abindi does a very good job explaining this. Anyway, our change in status has to do with our evolving covenant relationship with the Lord. As such, each time we are reborn, we ascend to a new rung on Isaiah's ladder. And like Jacob's ladder, where when we were born into a probationary state, our status changes each time we are justified in the law pertaining to that rung. (Thou shalt not kill is one law on one level, yet Abraham was commanded to sacrifice his son Isaac, demonstrating another law on a higher level). For example, one status is exalted to having our calling and election made sure. Joseph Smith spent a lot of time emphasizing this principle. Our status changes each time we ascend (D&C 76 reveals to us our potential status as Kings and Priests and Queens and Priestesses.

 

I agree with you that when we sin, we descend. This typifies descending in covenant curses. For example, Adam fell and so the Lord cursed the earth for his sake, bringing forth thorns and thistles to torment man. Eve was to bring forth children in sorrow. The further we descend in this manner, the greater the curse. When man descends to despotism and tyranny, we see the curses that accompany these chaotic levels as evidenced in the book of Isaiah. Nebuchadnezzar is a prime example of this. But descending in a covenant relationship with the Lord isn't always sin. Christ was sinless and descended below us all. In the book of Job, the Lord allowed Satan to harm Job. This type of descent typifies ruin/rebirth and humiliation/exaltation. We read about the manner, which the Lord blessed Job for his firmness of faith.

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