"What did you expect would happen when you made that choice?"


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I feel bad for her. I truly think she just doesn't understand. I believe she has honest and good intent. She's merely deceived and blinded by the wisdom of men (or...uh...women, in this case). 

 

I actually really respect that in her statement she plead with others not to leave because of this. It's too bad her views (and others supporting her) are misguided because her passion and good will could be put to positive use instead.

 

It is sad.

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Well, regardless of my disagreement with her views and methods, my heart goes out to her because I am quite aquainted with what she's going to now go through.  

 

From my experience, there is now only two roads she will need to personally decide to trod when it comes to the church: decide to do what it takes to come back into the fold or decide to fight against the church.  Rarely, if ever, will a middle road be able to be taken by an exommunicant.  The buffeting of the adversary will be real, palpable and intense. 

 

Those were very dark days for me, it has been very dark days for other excommunicants I've spoken with, it will be very dark days for her.  I can only hope that she doesn't give in and spiritually drown.

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I wonder who controls the website?

 

I would doubt that re-baptism could happen while the website is still up, attracting a following.

 

It'll be a long road ahead for her.

 

If she legitimately and openly disassociated herself and disavowed their activity she could.

 

I don't think the excommunications are over though. This will rattle her followers up more. Someone else will step up...maybe several. The missionary style "tracts" will also press forward. Unfortunately, I expect, they will become more vocal, not less. It will lead to further excommunications. 

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It is never a happy thing when someone is excommunicated, but in this case I feel it is for the best.  

 

I am sympathetic for Kate's cause, and even agree with a few points, but her methods repulse me.  I hate to use stereotypes, but she is such a lawyer!!  Talking about twisting words, using the press and popularity as weapons.  It's extremely unChristlike.    I do wish her the best still though, and hope her heart will be softened.

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If she legitimately and openly disassociated herself and disavowed their activity she could.

 

I don't think the excommunications are over though. This will rattle her followers up more. Someone else will step up...maybe several. The missionary style "tracts" will also press forward. Unfortunately, I expect, they will become more vocal, not less. It will lead to further excommunications. 

 

The sad truth.  

 

The Lord encourages us to ask questions- to use our God-given brains.  The apostles asked Christ questions all the time.  Questions = good.

 

Political campaigning = bad.  I fear that this polarizing unChirstlike campaigning is so far from over.  

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I hate to use stereotypes, but she is such a lawyer!!

 

I heartily agree with this.  Kelly and her supporters have come at this whole thing with a "how-much-can-I-get-away-with?" mentality that, IMHO, is wholly incompatible with the gospel of repentance.

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Of interest to me is that one of the conditions of repentance in the letter from her bishop (which she posted) was that she be honest about communications to and from priesthood leadership.

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Of interest to me is that one of the conditions of repentance in the letter from her bishop (which she posted) was that she be honest about communications to and from priesthood leadership.

 

That is interesting. I hadn't picked up on it. I wonder if the inference might not be that she has not been heretofore.

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That is interesting. I hadn't picked up on it. I wonder if the inference might not be that she has not been heretofore.

 

Well, she was apparently on formal probation since early May, but neglected to inform her following about it until she got her notice of hearing earlier this month.  She has (or her supporters have) also claimed that her local leaders never discussed OW with her until April or May; whereas today's letter confirms that discussions were happening as early as last December.  The Church could never go straight to the press with a detail like that.  But by putting it into Kelly's letter--which they knew darned well Kelly would feed to the press--they were able to get the story out regardless.

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I read a statement from her that she won't give up being associated with the Ordain Women movement.

 

Her excommunication letter states that she has to completely abandon it.

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One thing you-all should realize is that to come back into the fold after an excommunication is not the easiest because it takes a huge about of introspective and shedding of a lot of pride.  There were times I thought it was way to high a bar because I had to be "perfect" to get back in.  It was a slow climb but I made it and looking back, the bar wasn't sky high, it was set at the same level of expectation expected of all members starting with learning to live what is the first three steps of the 12 step program: I can't, He can, I choose to let Him.

 

Kind-of says a lot of where one is when that severe of a disipline is imposed.

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Alma chapter 1


 


24 For the hearts of many were hardened, and their names were blotted out, that they were remembered no more among the people of God. And also manywithdrew themselves from among them.


 25 Now this was a great trial to those that did stand fast in the faith; nevertheless, they were steadfast and immovable in keeping the commandments of God, and they bore with patience the persecution which was heaped upon them.

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That's what I say to my kids when they break the house rules and get the attached consequences.

 

So anyway, Kate Kelly has been excommunicated. 

 

 

*yawn*  just another apostate looking for 15 minutes.

 

I fear you two are being a little too judgmental. The way I see it, although her actions weren't always peaceful (in the sense of maintaining order), she was trying to remain true to herself. Honesty is so important. Let's not forget that if we had lost to Great Britain in the 1780's, Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, Henry, etc go back to Britain to be hanged/beheaded publicly. But, they were doing what they believed was right. Now, if you say that's because they were inspired by Heavenly Father, I am right there with. The Constitution that the church claims is inspired gives people the right to protest. Kate was just doing what a document inspired by Heavenly Father gives her the right to do. History is filled with affirmative action, protests, and civil rights activations that were at one point considered wrong and then later revered. Let's wait and see what happens "later" in this situation.

 

The buffeting of the adversary will be real, palpable and intense. 

 

Yet, they take away the tools, gifts, and blessings she would need to stay afloat. As a clinical mental health counselor, that makes absolutely no sense! "Go get help! But, we're going to take therapy, rehab, counseling, and medical care away from you--but go get help!"

 

Meanwhile, the person is left wondering, "Where?"

 

I don't think the excommunications are over though...It will lead to further excommunications. 

 

Yep. I am not saying I know the right way to handle this, but I can certainly think of some viable alternatives.

 

Furthermore, when Desean Jackson was "let go" by the Eagles this offseason, at first people considered it the right move: "Get your house in order, Philly." But, soon thereafter, other analysts came on saying that this was merely a showing that Chip Kelly was too inexperienced and lacked the versatility to deal with a wide array of personalities. Examples of Parsells with Dallas, Bellichek at New England, and What's-his-face at Oakland came to the forefront of the discussion as coaches/organizations capable to handling the Owens's and Moss's by providing the necessary structure, discpline, and fortitude to manage personalities. I wonder if, right now, the church is merely Chip Kelly.

 

One may say that isn't the church's job. To that I would say two things: 1) it wasn't Parsell's or Bellicheck's either. 2) They have stewardship over our souls, so like it or not, yes it is their job.

 

Husband and I felt, based on what we know, excommunication was a tad strong of a consequence.

 

It is too harsh. However, it was mistake on her part to not show up to the final disciplinary hearing. Actually, it was worst than a mistake, it was downright foolish. But, members of her website being asked to hand over their recommends, now that I can't get past.

 

 

Alma chapter 1

 

 25 Now this was a great trial to those that did stand fast in the faith; nevertheless, they were steadfast and immovable in keeping the commandments of God, ...

 

 

Right now, that's me.

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she was trying to remain true to herself.

 

Remaining true to oneself is not a gospel principle.

 

Honesty is so important.

 

And yet there is clear evidence of dishonesty driven by agenda.

 

Let's not forget that if we had lost to Great Britain in the 1780's, Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, Henry, etc go back to Britain to be hanged/beheaded publicly. But, they were doing what they believed was right. Now, if you say that's because they were inspired by Heavenly Father, I am right there with. The Constitution that the church claims is inspired gives people the right to protest. Kate was just doing what a document inspired by Heavenly Father gives her the right to do. History is filled with affirmative action, protests, and civil rights activations that were at one point considered wrong and then later revered. Let's wait and see what happens "later" in this situation.

 

This is not a constitutional or legal issue in any way. The comparison makes no sense. Of course she has the legal right to it. And no one is throwing her in jail, beheading her, or proposing such should be done. And no one should ever revere fighting against God and His kingdom. Ever.

 

Yet, they take away the tools, gifts, and blessings she would need to stay afloat. .

 

This is false. The tools, gifts, and blessings she needed to stay afloat are already gone. The gift of the Holy Ghost is contingent on righteousness and obedience.  You don't just get these things by virtue of membership. As with all covenants, If you don't keep up your end, you have no promise.

 

As a clinical mental health counselor, that makes absolutely no sense! "Go get help! But, we're going to take therapy, rehab, counseling, and medical care away from you--but go get help!"

 

Meanwhile, the person is left wondering, "Where?"

 

Where? Seriously? Since when does excommunication keep her from going to church, keep her from counseling with her bishop? Keep her from praying? Keep her from reading scriptures?

 

Nothing she needs for repentance has been taken from her. She has access to all the counselling, guidance, and mercy that she is willing to receive. She is unwilling! That is on her.

 

Furthermore, when Desean Jackson was "let go" by the Eagles this offseason, at first people considered it the right move: "Get your house in order, Philly." But, soon thereafter, other analysts came on saying that this was merely a showing that Chip Kelly was too inexperienced and lacked the versatility to deal with a wide array of personalities. Examples of Parsells with Dallas, Bellichek at New England, and What's-his-face at Oakland came to the forefront of the discussion as coaches/organizations capable to handling the Owens's and Moss's by providing the necessary structure, discpline, and fortitude to manage personalities. I wonder if, right now, the church is merely Chip Kelly.

 

One may say that isn't the church's job. To that I would say two things: 1) it wasn't Parsell's or Bellicheck's either. 2) They have stewardship over our souls, so like it or not, yes it is their job.

 

You really think comparing a sports organization to the church is valid? Or that what some random analyst thinks defines truth and right?

 

It is too harsh. However, it was mistake on her part to not show up to the final disciplinary hearing. Actually, it was worst than a mistake, it was downright foolish.

 

It is NOT your place to say if it was too harsh. This is the stewardship and prerogative of others.

 

How can it be considered too harsh when she continued to openly rebel? Refusal to meet conditions, Refusal to humble herself. Refusal to accept doctrine and guidance. Refusal to even attend the counsel with a phone call.

 

As the thread title states, what did she expect?!

 

But, members of her website being asked to hand over their recommends, now that I can't get past.

 

Uh....what?

 

Right now, that's me.

 

Wait...so you're interpreting, "Now this was a great trial to those that did stand fast in the faith" as it being a trial because they did not think it was fair that those who were blotted out got blotted out?  You think the " persecution which was heaped upon them" that caused them to bear with much patience was from the church?

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Yet, they take away the tools, gifts, and blessings she would need to stay afloat. As a clinical mental health counselor, that makes absolutely no sense! "Go get help! But, we're going to take therapy, rehab, counseling, and medical care away from you--but go get help!"

 

Meanwhile, the person is left wondering, "Where?"

 

Ok, well, TFP reiterated what one of my stake presidents said once "there are many people in this stake who are walking around thinking they have the gift of the Holy Ghost, but they don't."

 

So, let me speak from experience having been excommunicated for over 9 years and rebaptised last year, the Gift of the Holy Ghost may be taken away, but one still has the Light of Christ and wow, the wonders and miracles that have happened to me with "only" the Light of Christ really changed my perception of it.  It's immensely more powerful than we give it credit.  And regardless of what anyone says, it doesn't take much at all to have the Grace of God bless one's life.

 

So to say that everything is taken away is a falacy, only the ordinances and blessings that eminate from them that come with church membership are removed.  An excommunicant can still attend church, can still attend activities, can still fellowship with the saints, can still counsel and have the support of the Bishop and the Stake Presidency and the Relief Society President, and can still reap enormous blessings from reaching for the Light of Christ.

 

So anyone that says that an excommunicant is banished from the church by the church not only is wrong, they don't know what they're talking about so anything more they have to say on the subject should be looked at with suspicion.

 

Any banishment exercised is self imposed.  And, as I posted before, to return to the fold through rebaptism is difficult, but that's because there will be a lot of pride and behavior that will need to be stripped out before one can once again accept that ordinance.

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Just a personal observation, personal experience. 

 

The Holy Ghost is NOT taken away, when we do not follow the Gospel Principles, do not obey the commandments of God, do not seek the light of Christ. When we actively and ardently search for and follow the Adversary - then WE chase away the Holy Ghost. For the Holy Ghost cannot dwell among evil, the adversary. The person, Kate Kelly in this case, invited the adversary into her life and the resulting consequences was the Holy Ghost left her. 

 

Being excommunicated from the Church is NOT the same as being found guilty in a court of the land and being sent to prison. 

 

 

It is the Church’s way of disciplining members in order to aid their repentance and to indicate to the world that the Church holds certain things to be so serious that they will not be tolerated by those in full fellowship. 

 

The above quote is from:  

The Principles and Purposes of Church Courts Lesson 41: Section 102

Doctrine and Covenants Instructor’s Guide: Religion 324-325, (1981), 81–82

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Well Urstadt let's take a closer look again.

 

A pattern of behavior that she has been told by her leaders is not harmonious with the Gospel.  Having an agenda.  Making sure that agenda is in the media.  Making sure that agenda remains in the media.  Lying about her behavior in the media.

 

Hmmmm...sounds like someone getting their 15+ minutes to me.

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Urstadt,

 

 

I understand that this is difficult for you, it has been difficult for me as well.  The last thing anyone wants this to turn into a witch hunt.   No one want Kelly (or anyone else) to quit attending church, quit praying, quit scripture reading, or to loose her testimony.  We all want to heal, we all want to be embraced by the Lord.  What has happened this weekend is a tragedy, even if necessary.  

 

I've thought/prayed about this a lot.  It has caused a serious prolonged study for me on what "Priesthood" is.  I am sympathetic to many of Kelly's points.  But when one has questions, the proper course of action is to pray & knock, not to submit things to the New York Times.  We must follow the Lord's model of behavior, not the American political one.  

 

-Jane

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