"What did you expect would happen when you made that choice?"


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In the spirit of God not being one of chaos, I really can't see where He'd inspire one member that women should have the priesthood against what He's telling the prophet. That seems pretty chaotic to me.

 

There is right and there is right right now.  I won't discount Priesthood keys given to women as right.  But, I can be 100% certain it is not right right now.

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I won't discount Priesthood keys given to women as right.

 

I will. The priesthood is an eternal order. It's not something that changes. The patriarchal order is an eternal order. It's not something that changes. And, moreover, women have, and always have had, exactly what they need for exaltation. I'll eat crow if I'm wrong, of course...but I'm not.

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I will. The priesthood is an eternal order. It's not something that changes. The patriarchal order is an eternal order. It's not something that changes. And, moreover, women have, and always have had, exactly what they need for exaltation. I'll eat crow if I'm wrong, of course...but I'm not.

 

I tend to agree with you.  But, I don't take this as an absolute... meaning... if tomorrow Pres. Monson announces he's ordaining Kelly to the Priesthood, I'd be like... meh.  It won't even put a tiny dent on my testimony.  Although, I tend to agree with you - more than likely it's not gonna happen as there's just no scriptural evidence to support it (which doesn't mean that a new revelation on the matter cannot happen).

 

Don't you just love the way I flip-flop on that paragraph?  :)

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I think a couple of Neil Maxwell quotes would be helpful to Kate:

“Faith in God includes Faith in God's timing.”

― Neal A. Maxwell

“The submission of one's will is really the only uniquely personal thing we have to place on God's altar. The many other things we 'give' are actually the things He has already given or loaned to us.”

― Neal A. Maxwell

“Never give up what you want most for what you want today.”

― Neal A. Maxwell

"Those who turn against the Church do so to play to their own private gallery, but when, one day, the applause has died down and the cheering has stopped, they will face a smaller audience, the judgment bar of God." - Neil A. Maxwell

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Re Samuel the Lamanite--

 

One other point to bear in mind is that Samuel did not contradict the institutional church as it existed in his day.  Rather, he buttressed its teachings; and those who believed Samuel went to Nephi (son of Helaman, and head of the church) for baptism (see Helaman 16:1).

 

For Kelly to legitimately claim the mantle of Samuel the Lamanite, non-Mormons would have to come away from her website or her podcasts and think "Ooh!  I wish I were a Mormon!"  But non-Mormons who see her website or hear her podcasts seem to be getting quite the opposite impression; and I think that's a major reason she's no longer a member of this Church.

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Re Samuel the Lamanite--

 

One other point to bear in mind is that Samuel did not contradict the institutional church as it existed in his day.  Rather, he buttressed its teachings; and those who believed Samuel went to Nephi (son of Helaman, and head of the church) for baptism (see Helaman 16:1).

 

For Kelly to legitimately claim the mantle of Samuel the Lamanite, non-Mormons would have to come away from her website or her podcasts and think "Ooh!  I wish I were a Mormon!"  But non-Mormons who see her website or hear her podcasts seem to be getting quite the opposite impression; and I think that's a major reason she's no longer a member of this Church.

 

Stealing and using elsewhere.  Great point.

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I may be off in my thinking but I can't help thinking that the days of separating the wheat from the chaff have begun or is accelerating.

 

Begun...but maybe not really. I think we're still in the time of gathering. Hasten the work and all. But there will, certainly, come a time when this will occur. However, I don't think it's going to be simple excommunications. Something more dramatic I expect--war, famine, earthquake, more war--maybe combined with a good healthy dose of polygamy coming back and a whole bunch of excommunications too?? :) Who knows.

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Begun...but maybe not really. I think we're still in the time of gathering. Hasten the work and all. But there will, certainly, come a time when this will occur. However, I don't think it's going to be simple excommunications. Something more dramatic I expect--war, famine, earthquake, more war--maybe combined with a good healthy dose of polygamy coming back and a whole bunch of excommunications too?? :) Who knows.

 

Ah, TFP, why did you have to say "a good healthy dose of polygamy coming back"?  Just say polygamy and leave good and healthy out of it.  Lol. Yes, I can see for men they might think it's "good and healthy". I don't think you'll get very many women agreeing with you. 

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Ah, TFP, why did you have to say "a good healthy dose of polygamy coming back"?  Just say polygamy and leave good and healthy out of it.  Lol. Yes, I can see for men they might think it's "good and healthy". I don't think you'll get very many women agreeing with you. 

 

Haha. Yeah...not quite what I meant..... Good and healthy for separating the wheat from the tares.

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Posted · Hidden by estradling75, June 28, 2014 - Ask first
Hidden by estradling75, June 28, 2014 - Ask first

I'm adding a blog link from Rational Faiths titled, Did Kate Kelly's Local Leaders Follow the Handbook? I hope those interested are able to read the blog, since sometimes blogs and sites like these are deleted by the moderators. I hope it passes the test and is allowed to stay.

 

http://rationalfaiths.com/kate-kellys-local-leaders-follow-handbook/

 

M. 

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I said it before and I will say it again, Kate Kelly's excommunication as well as others will make things worse.

 

I don't even know if I am allowed to link to this web site (I guess not so I won't take the chance) but there is this group called "Strangers in Zion" that I believe was created recently, who is asking those who are against recent excommunications to ask their local leadership for a disciplinary action to show support and if doing that isn't something they want to do, they can also "help" (their words) by participating in a "mass membership resignation" taking place next month in SLC.

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I said it before and I will say it again, Kate Kelly's excommunication as well as others will make things worse.

 

I don't even know if I am allowed to link to this web site (I guess not so I won't take the chance) but there is this group called "Strangers in Zion" that I believe was created recently, who is asking those who are against recent excommunications to ask their local leadership for a disciplinary action to show support and if doing that isn't something they want to do, they can also "help" (their words) by participating in a "mass membership resignation" taking place next month in SLC.

 

I don't know that it should be viewed in such black and white terms as worse/better - good/bad.  To say that Kate Kelly's excommunication was bad is incomplete. To say that it was good is also incomplete. It is good and bad. It is tragic for her. It is bound to cause troubles. It is also good though. It draws a line, sets the standard, protects the church and it's doctrine, and hopefully, if she humbles herself, will lead her back to the fold someday. That's just off the top of my head. There are certainly other good and bad things to it. So it is with better/worse. Will it be worse for some? Yes. Is it overall, universally going to be worse? No. In some ways it will be better. There will be those driven away from the church because of it and there will be those who are protected from being driven away.

 

We all react differently to different things. It's way to complicated to view as an overreaching improvement or setback.

 

Moreover, and more importantly, the forces of evil will continue to gather. In that regard, things WILL get worse...pretty much continually until the second coming. Standing for truth and right will, inevitably, in many instances make things worse. Failure to stand for truth and right won't help though.

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I said it before and I will say it again, Kate Kelly's excommunication as well as others will make things worse.

 

I don't even know if I am allowed to link to this web site (I guess not so I won't take the chance) but there is this group called "Strangers in Zion" that I believe was created recently, who is asking those who are against recent excommunications to ask their local leadership for a disciplinary action to show support and if doing that isn't something they want to do, they can also "help" (their words) by participating in a "mass membership resignation" taking place next month in SLC.

 

 

Wow.  I suppose if you feel so strongly about the matter you just can't handle officially being in the Church anymore...

 

Hey, why wait to be separated, wheat and chaff style, when you can do it yourself?

 

Sad.

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Hey, why wait to be separated, wheat and chaff style, when you can do it yourself?

 

I think that all separation, wheat and chaff style, will be done by the individual being separated. We remove ourselves from God, not the other way around, right?

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I said it before and I will say it again, Kate Kelly's excommunication as well as others will make things worse.

 

I don't even know if I am allowed to link to this web site (I guess not so I won't take the chance) but there is this group called "Strangers in Zion" that I believe was created recently, who is asking those who are against recent excommunications to ask their local leadership for a disciplinary action to show support and if doing that isn't something they want to do, they can also "help" (their words) by participating in a "mass membership resignation" taking place next month in SLC.

 

I don't know about making things worse.  There have been far worse things that have happened to/in/about/by the church and it's still here.  I wouldn't hang the disposition of a worldwide church on one person and their action.  Look at the Catholic church, they're still around and they've had scandal after scandal after scandal.  Besides, I would surmise that the total number of members who let themselves be affected by this is a pretty small number. 

 

As for those who go to their church leadership and demand a disciplinary hearing, well, I dunno, it seems they let the beauty of the gospel be defined by one person.  I don't know about you folks, but I never and will never hang my fortunes on one, mortal person, especially the likes of Kate Kelly or John Dehlin.  I've said it before and I reiterate it here - I've listened to both and read what they have to say and I can come to only one conclusion - they are both wolves in sheep's clothing that will do nothing but devour for their own aggrandizement and conceit.  Been there, done that so I know their type and I know their slick methods.  Their fruits are not good.

 

If you're having a faith crisis, go listen to Bill Reel who runs mormondiscussionpodcast.org and the Fair Mormon Blog.  He had a faith crisis when he was a Bishop.  There may be nothing flashy or dramatic about his work, but that's how the Lord works, not by creating conflict, distention, and disharmony but by acknowledging and helping.

 

If the church survived the death of a prophet, an extermination order, the priesthood ban, the September 6 (which I believe some have come back into the church), the salamander letter, ERA, polygamy, Prop 8, ect, then I do believe the church will go on just fine after the excommunication of Kate Kelly and potentially John Dehlin.

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We will see more and more infiltrators after these excommunications, meaning groups who hate the Church and they are pretending to feel empathy for Kelly and others so they can get people to resign from the Church.That's what I meant by "worse" and that's what I think the way the whole issue was handled was too extreme. Even the First Presidency made a statement, this is to show the extend of this issue. *smh*

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We will see more and more infiltrators after these excommunications, meaning groups who hate the Church and they are pretending to feel empathy for Kelly and others so they can get people to resign from the Church.That's what I meant by "worse" and that's what I think the way the whole issue was handled was too extreme. Even the First Presidency made a statement, this is to show the extend of this issue. *smh*

 

I agree. If Sister Kelly hadn't taken this situation to the extremes that she did, she would still be a member of the Church. As it is, she pushed her agenda to the point where she has and still does encourage people to turn away from the Church. She seems to have forgotten the correct order of how things are done in this church which she claims to still believe is true, which is that the church is run and guided by Jesus Christ Himself, through revelation given to His Prophets, of which there are currently 15, and she is not one of them.

 

Revelation for the Church does not come through common members, it comes through those ordained and holding keys, and those who hold those keys have stated repeatedly that so far there has been no revelation given to them that women are now to be given the priesthood. Sister Kelly has and is still unwilling to accept that, and now she has stepped up the fight, to presume to speak for Christ, and to know better than those who have been entrusted with receiving revelation for the Church. When you claim to believe in a church that purports to be run by Christ through revelation and Prophets on the one hand, yet on the other hand claim that those same Prophets aren't receiving the proper revelation and that you know better, there's a bit of a contradiction in your way of thinking.

 

But Sister Kelly went even a bit further. She upped the ante when she started up a group with the basic premise that the leaders of the church are/were wrong, and that if enough people joined her cause, they could push the Church into changing its stand on the issue through public pressure. She seems to have forgotten that this church which runs by revelation, doesn't take public opinion polls to Jesus in order to receive its revelation.

 

Quite simply, in my opinion, she was in the wrong church. There are plenty of churches out there that operate and change doctrine through polls and bowing to public pressure, The LDS Church has not been and is not now one of them. SHe the one who went to the extremes. She separated herself from the Church a long time ago. The recent excommunication merely made it official.

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The parable regarding the wheat and the tares comes to mind.

 

Also reminds me of a Q&A on Ask Gramps regarding the falling away of members.  You can read it here.

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I was reading in D&C 86 last night concerning the wheat and the tares and was struck by the following:

 

But behold, in the last days, even now while the Lord is beginning to bring forth the word, and the blade is springing up and is yet tender—

 Behold, verily I say unto you, the angels are crying unto the Lord day and night, who are ready and waiting to be sent forth to reap down the fields;

 But the Lord saith unto them, pluck not up the tares while the blade is yet tender (for verily your faith is weak), lest you destroy the wheat also.

 Therefore, let the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest is fully ripe; then ye shall first gather out the wheat from among the tares, and after the gathering of the wheat, behold and lo, the tares are bound in bundles, and the field remaineth to be burned.

If the angels had their way... A scary thought. Those who are fighting against the principles of the church have angles just itching to come and destroy them.

 

Yeah...I'm not sure we're anywhere near separating the wheat from the tares yet. Except in extreme examples, I think there's a whole lot of tares just growing in the wheat, thinking they're just fine 'cause, "Hey, I have a temple recommend. I'm not excommunicated." They're deceiving themselves.

 

When the wheat and the tares are actually separated it's going to be a very, very sad day.

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How asking if they prayed about it equals demanding the Prophet to pray about and then come back and report?. You know, I have the impression (generally speaking) that a lot of members think we should just take an answer and don't ask follow-up questions or that asking them is somehow inappropriate because the First Presidency made a statement.

 

Definitely, I see things very differently and I am very okay with it. As someone who studies and researches history, I am inquisitive by nature. Having said that, regardless of what the Church stated (that it is okay to ask questions), in reality when those questions are asked, members either assume you lack faith, you are perceived as being plainly rebellious or that you think you know more than the Prophet. Really? Asking follow up questions in order to get a better understanding of the issue equals all of that? I really don't understand this mindset.

 

I am very cool if others are satisfied with the statements and don't care to ask follow up questions (for whatever reason) and I would hope others feel as cool when others do ask instead of assuming they lack faith or that the answer should be "enough".

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I was reading in D&C 86 last night concerning the wheat and the tares and was struck by the following:

 

But behold, in the last days, even now while the Lord is beginning to bring forth the word, and the blade is springing up and is yet tender—

 Behold, verily I say unto you, the angels are crying unto the Lord day and night, who are ready and waiting to be sent forth to reap down the fields;

 But the Lord saith unto them, pluck not up the tares while the blade is yet tender (for verily your faith is weak), lest you destroy the wheat also.

 Therefore, let the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest is fully ripe; then ye shall first gather out the wheat from among the tares, and after the gathering of the wheat, behold and lo, the tares are bound in bundles, and the field remaineth to be burned.

If the angels had their way... A scary thought. Those who are fighting against the principles of the church have angles just itching to come and destroy them.

 

Yeah...I'm not sure we're anywhere near separating the wheat from the tares yet. Except in extreme examples, I think there's a whole lot of tares just growing in the wheat, thinking they're just fine 'cause, "Hey, I have a temple recommend. I'm not excommunicated." They're deceiving themselves.

 

When the wheat and the tares are actually separated it's going to be a very, very sad day.

 

Perhaps but we are definitely working our way towards that.

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How asking if they prayed about it equals demanding the Prophet to pray about and then come back and report?. You know, I have the impression (generally speaking) that a lot of members think we should just take an answer and don't ask follow-up questions or that asking them is somehow inappropriate because the First Presidency made a statement.

 

Definitely, I see things very differently and I am very okay with it. As someone who studies and researches history, I am inquisitive by nature. Having said that, regardless of what the Church stated (that it is okay to ask questions), in reality when those questions are asked, members either assume you lack faith, you are perceived as being plainly rebellious or that you think you know more than the Prophet. Really? Asking follow up questions in order to get a better understanding of the issue equals all of that? I really don't understand this mindset.

 

I am very cool if others are satisfied with the statements and don't care to ask follow up questions (for whatever reason) and I would hope others feel as cool when others do ask instead of assuming they lack faith or that the answer should be "enough".

 

 

I agree with this.

 

However, there is a big difference between asking for specifics on whether or not an answer was received and the smear campaign she created against the Church.

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