Why can't life be easier?

[mdfxdb]

How about if I tell my bishop some of my troubles but don't expect him to give me legal advice? I've actually talked to him a little bit and he referred me to a nice family lawyer in our ward who said he was willing to give me some free advice. This was before the whole thing started blowing up, though.

 

It's ok to talk to your Bishop about these things, but asking for advice is something different.  I see he did exactly what he should have done, which was refer you to a professional.  Anything past that and he is out of bounds, unless he is an attorney, or unless he has family and marital counseling experience.

 

I think the bishop has responsibility for the temporal welfare of the ward, but he should not be giving advice about topics he knows nothing about.  

 

I have temporal responsibility for my family, but I am not a mechanic, nor do I try to tell a mechanic what to do and how to do it when he is working on my car.  

[yjacket]

Legal advice is out of his realm, but a certain amount of family and marital counseling is not.  Counseling can be fairly expensive and not everyone has the financial means to actually afford professional counseling.

[mdfxdb]

Legal advice is out of his realm, but a certain amount of family and marital counseling is not.  Counseling can be fairly expensive and not everyone has the financial means to actually afford professional counseling.

Correct, which is why the church has the fast offering system.  The bishop sees to the temporal/spiritual welfare of the ward by employing this system in instances where it is needed, and the Bishop doesn't have proper expertise.  

 

Plumbing can be fairly expensive as well.  If I get someone that will do the job for free, but messes it up what have I gained?  

[yjacket]

Correct, which is why the church has the fast offering system.  The bishop sees to the temporal/spiritual welfare of the ward by employing this system in instances where it is needed, and the Bishop doesn't have proper expertise.  

 

Plumbing can be fairly expensive as well.  If I get someone that will do the job for free, but messes it up what have I gained?  

 

In extreme circumstances the bishop might offer fast offering for counseling.  However, by the very nature of his calling he 

"counsels" individuals.  Sometimes an individual might need a different level of counseling than a Bishop is able to provide, however I'd say in the vast majority of situations a professional counselor is not needed.  

 

Taking your plumbing example, the vast majority of plumbing issues can be solved by just about anyone.  Drain clogged, take a snake, sink leaking, replace it, piping under the sink bad, replace it.  All of those can easily be solved with someone who has a smidgen of experience in home ownership.  If I called a professional plumber every time the smallest thing went wrong, I'd be wasting a lot of money.  Sometimes, the job is too big for the skilled homeowner, if you have a leak in your walls, under the house, etc.  Those situations will most likely require a professional.

 

A significant portion of martial issues can be helped by someone who has plenty of experience in being married and with a family.  Bishops must be married.  A Bishop is like the experienced homeowner who can fix a significant portion of issues.  At some point, professional counseling may be required, a wise Bishop would know when that point is reached, i.e. the pipe in the wall is leaking .. . okay now it's time to call in the professionals.  This idea that the Bishop has no business counseling married couples is ridiculous.  I'd be honestly quite disappointed if I went to my religious leader for help in my family life and he just says, nope I can't help you but here's someone you can call!

 

"3. With the help of the Relief Society president and other ward leaders, the bishop determines the needs of the families in the ward. Usually the bishop does not give money to the person being assisted but pays directly for the things the person needs. A family can receive help in the form of commodities (like groceries), payment of certain obligations (like rent or medical bills), or other aid."

 

I can only think of very rare instances where the Bishop would authorize direct payment of funds to a professional counselor.

[mdfxdb]

You couldn't be more wrong. Bishops are not counselors. Just because they are married does not mean they have the ability to counsel someone else about their marriage outside of having those individuals follow basic gospel principles or aiding in a repentance process.

Just because I could fix my sink doesn't mean I did it right. And because I fixed my sink it does not qualify me to fix someone else's sink. Likely they have a different sink.

Professionals exist because "experienced" people who are not qualified to do a job usually mess it up. I live in a house where a supposedly experienced homeowner (previous) "fixed" the sprinklers and "fixed" the sink, but did not do it right. Did it stop leaking? Yes. Was it only a patch job that didn't last? Yes. Would a professional have fixed it right? Yes.

Again a bishop is not a counselor. He is at best an experienced homeowner with a limited scope of experience. We don't even know if his experience is a good one. But somehow he is instantly qualified in all things????

[Guest]

You guys are wierd.

 

In the Philippines, only celebrities go to "Professional Counselors" for their marital issues.  And with the track record of broken-home celebrities in the Philippines, it doesn't speak well for these professionals.  And in the Philippines, divorce is illegal.

 

Marital issues are normally taken to the parents or grandparents for counselling.  If you have a family as ginormous as mine, we might get some advice from aunts and uncles.  And if it's a big deal problem (like threats of separation or if there's abuse), a family meeting could be held.  They're not professional counsellors but the wisdom of my elders are very valuable in these situations.  Not only do they know us personally, they've been through "marital Normandy" themselves.  And since respect for the elders are ingrained in the culture, the spouse is more likely to listen to the in-laws than to strangers.

 

When the problem is not resolved within the family, we go to the Priest (majority of the population is Catholic).  Catholic Priests are not married but they do get training in these matters.  An LDS member would go to his bishop.  They also get training in these matters.  The advantage to this is not only do they know us personally, they can dole out advice that is consistent to one's faith.

 

If these avenues do not work, that's when professional counsellors are brought in... well, if you're rich.

 

So, in my experience, religious leaders (Catholic Priests or LDS Bishops) are but an extension of my family.  The advice I get from the Bishop would be treated in the same exact manner as the advice I get from my mother.  They are very valuable.

 

So yes, in America, ordinary people can afford professional counsellors.  So, yes, make use of this avenue.  But to say that a Bishop's counsel is useless in these matters is, to me, crippling the organization of God's kingdom.  The FAMILY is the foundation of God's Kingdom.  It is the most important unit of our Spiritual Life so much so that the family unit is eternal.  To say that a Bishop - the person God gave keys to lead a ward - has no business administering counsel to a Family does not bode well for the health of God's organization.

[tumbledquartz]

I'm pretty sure funds get used to pay LDS Family Services for counseling on a regular basis. I've actually talked to bishops about this in the past. I have always had insurance that covered mental health issues with a reasonable copay, so I haven't needed to use it, but it was an option.

 

I personally think there are some problems in marriage and family life that can be fixed with some good old spiritual advice. The bishop is entitled to revelation on your behalf. Sometimes the Sunday School answers are the best way to fix a marriage that's gone slightly off track. With the plumbing analogy, I have unclogged many drains, and I would feel confident helping anyone unclog their drains, too. But if I got in there and found that their drain was so different than mine that I couldn't make heads or tails of it, or so clogged that nothing I did could fix it, I would tell them to get someone who knew more than me. I know bishops aren't perfect, but I think this is what they do. You come to them and tell them your drain is clogged and they try to help you get it unclogged. If they find that it is beyond their ability to repair, they offer to refer you to a plumber.

[Guest]

How's the plumbing in your house going, Tumbled?  Is it getting better, at least?  How are the kiddos handling it?

[tumbledquartz]

Our plumbing is still a mess. I have my two oldest kids in counseling with a great therapist who specializes in family counseling. My oldest is really struggling because the last time I pushed her to stay at her dad's house because I was trying to comply with the custody agreement, she found out he was sleeping with his new girlfriend and he told her not to tell me about it. She was so upset she texted me at 11 p.m. and said she was going to start walking home if I didn't come get her. She wouldn't tell me why, though, because she didn't want to betray her dad. Luckily, I was able to guess what was wrong because I already suspected he had a girlfriend. Once I guessed it, she opened up to me and told me what had happened. My son is really struggling because he has always craved his dad's attention and he wants to live at his dad's house. He blames me for pushing his dad away because his dad told him it was my fault he'd started drinking again. I feel like my pipes aren't even in the walls anymore.

 

And then I have my mother-in-law, who ironically wrote her master's thesis on wives of alcoholics, telling me that I am equally responsible for our problems and showing me no compassion and telling us that we should share custody because we are equally good parents, we just have different strengths and weaknesses. She's driving me completely batty. I've blocked her emails from my inbox because I get so frustrated reading them.

[Guest]

And then I have my mother-in-law, who ironically wrote her master's thesis on wives of alcoholics, telling me that I am equally responsible for our problems and showing me no compassion and telling us that we should share custody because we are equally good parents, we just have different strengths and weaknesses. She's driving me completely batty. I've blocked her emails from my inbox because I get so frustrated reading them.

 

Does she know about him leaving the kids alone and having relations with his gf?

[tumbledquartz]

Does she know about him leaving the kids alone and having relations with his gf?

YES. And she just says, "You just have to worry about taking responsibility for your problems and let him worry about his problems. Blaming people doesn't solve problems."

 

When I told her that it was ironic that she wrote her Master's Thesis on Wives of Alcoholics, given that she never showed any compassion for me when I was in that situation, her reply was: "You weren't the wife of an active alcoholic for most of the marriage." I didn't realize you had to suffer through something for a certain percentage of your marriage before you were entitled to support or sympathy.

[Guest]

YES. And she just says, "You just have to worry about taking responsibility for your problems and let him worry about his problems. Blaming people doesn't solve problems."

 

When I told her that it was ironic that she wrote her Master's Thesis on Wives of Alcoholics, given that she never showed any compassion for me when I was in that situation, her reply was: "You weren't the wife of an active alcoholic for most of the marriage." I didn't realize you had to suffer through something for a certain percentage of your marriage before you were entitled to support or sympathy.

 

You will just have to give her some allowance.  It's her child and a lot of times, mothers suffer from denial when their children do terrible things.  They have the tendency to protect and excuse their child for anything.

 

You, on the other hand, have your own children to protect.  But, it is my opinion that you will be in a better position (both physically and emotionally) if you make your decisions with charity in your heart.  That is, make your decisions without needing to put down the spouse and in-laws, especially in the presence of your children (you can always vent your frustrations with them here on lds.net - that's what we're here for - a sounding board, if you will).  But be very firm in your decisions to protect your children's emotional and physical welfare.  And this includes sacrficing your own needs for the meantime until they are in a stable environment.  Cling to God.

 

Hope and pray that things get better soon!  God is with you.

[mdfxdb]

You guys are wierd.

 

In the Philippines

Catholic Priests are not married but they do get training in these matters.  An LDS member would go to his bishop.  They also get training in these matters.  The advantage to this is not only do they know us personally, they can dole out advice that is consistent to one's faith.

 

So, in my experience, religious leaders (Catholic Priests or LDS Bishops) are but an extension of my family.  The advice I get from the Bishop would be treated in the same exact manner as the advice I get from my mother.  They are very valuable.

 

So yes, in America, ordinary people can afford professional counsellors.  So, yes, make use of this avenue.  But to say that a Bishop's counsel is useless in these matters is, to me, crippling the organization of God's kingdom.  The FAMILY is the foundation of God's Kingdom.  It is the most important unit of our Spiritual Life so much so that the family unit is eternal.  To say that a Bishop - the person God gave keys to lead a ward - has no business administering counsel to a Family does not bode well for the health of God's organization.

Were not in the Philippines. If we were your cultural point of view would be valid. Divorce is legal in the US and most other places.

I do not propose that a bishops adivice is useless. Simply that they are not trained to give appropriate counseling in most instances.

You are right Catholic priests are not married. And they do get training. But our LDS bishops do not have the training a qualified catholic priest has. They don't have the education or doctrinal background catholic prirests have. By comparison our bishops were mere amateurs.

[Guest]

You are right Catholic priests are not married. And they do get training. But our LDS bishops do not have the training a qualified catholic priest has. They don't have the education or doctrinal background catholic prirests have. By comparison our bishops were mere amateurs.

 

God's Kingdom is built on the foundation of Families.  Eternal Marriage to be precise.  God put that rresponsibility on Priesthood holders to preside over that Kingdom.  A Masters in Psychology is not one of the requirements for holding that Priesthood.

 

Professional counseling is well and good.  Telling God's children that a Bishop should not counsel God's children in matters of Eternal Families is telling God this organization that he put in place is a dumb one.

[mdfxdb]

God's Kingdom is built on the foundation of Families.  Eternal Marriage to be precise.  God put that rresponsibility on Priesthood holders to preside over that Kingdom.  A Masters in Psychology is not one of the requirements for holding that Priesthood.

 

Professional counseling is well and good.  Telling God's children that a Bishop should not counsel God's children in matters of Eternal Families is telling God this organization that he put in place is a dumb one.

Bishops are within their rights to counsel the members about eternal families, and the responsibilities of husbands and wifes to one another as concerns eternal marriage.

 

This, is not marriage counseling.

 

 Bishops in general, are not qualified to recognize deficiencies in communication, teach how to communicate, resolve specific issues, or cognitively recognize how people are feeling/reacting to the counseling they are receiving.  

 

Moreover, once an individual has decided to get divorced, Bishops are not qualified to advise on division of assets, custody, divorce costs/procedures.  Any advice given to me by my bishop on such matters would be taken with a grain of salt.

[Guest]

Bishops are within their rights to counsel the members about eternal families, and the responsibilities of husbands and wifes to one another as concerns eternal marriage.

 

This, is not marriage counseling.

 

 Bishops in general, are not qualified to recognize deficiencies in communication, teach how to communicate, resolve specific issues, or cognitively recognize how people are feeling/reacting to the counseling they are receiving.  

 

Moreover, once an individual has decided to get divorced, Bishops are not qualified to advise on division of assets, custody, divorce costs/procedures.  Any advice given to me by my bishop on such matters would be taken with a grain of salt.

 

If you only consider professional counseling as marriage counseling, then you are right.