Tree of knowledge of good and evil

[Traveler]

Isn't that what Joseph Fielding Smith is saying here; "Now this is the way I interpret that: The Lord said to Adam, here is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you want to stay here, then you cannot eat of that fruit. If you want to stay here, then I forbid you to eat it. But you may act for yourself, and you may eat of it if you want to. And if you eat it, you will die."?

I think you are missing a point.  Perhaps this question will help you understand something missing.  Does the Father possess the knowledge of good and evil (symbolically partaken of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil) and does he get to stay?  What exactly is it that the Father is forbidding?

[Seminarysnoozer]

It is my personal opinion that your post indicates a great deal of brilliance (intelligence).  You are asking some good questions.   It seems to me that there is very little literal exactness in the Eden epoch and the symbolism of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.   For example, I do not believe that the knowledge of Good and Evil is in any way related to sin.  Without question G-d the Father himself possesses such knowledge without sin – neither in having such knowledge nor in having acquired such knowledge. 

 

I believe it is important to understand that there was a just, real and actual fall.  Not a pretense or a pretend fall.   But there must be a fall from which we cannot regret our place and just end the ordeal because we have had enough of it.   I do not believe that there is anything unjust or false in the fall.  From my understanding of G-d and his plan there had to be a fall but a very real conundrum in bringing about a true, honest and just fall for all mankind.  Thus there had to be a transgression.  Not just a transgression committed by Adam and Eve but a transgression partaken of by all that would come to mortality.  It is a transgression matter that must include both justice and agency.  Not something we are “tricked” into or as Eve said – beguiled!   If such was the case – I do not believe agency was a parameter of the fall of man.

 

In short I believe we are to understand that there are many important and critical elements of the fall that we are not told of or have revelation concerning, in this life.  I have long sought resolution to many things I do not understand concerning the fall and though I believe my quests have been partly rewarded  for some things I have not received any more comfort beyond – “have faith and the time will come when all such questions will be resolved.”  But in all honesty patients are not my best character attribute and I am also troubled by those that think or would indicate they know the answers when they in reality do not seem to understand much concerning the questions.

Why does the Fall have to be "just" in the sense that I think you are suggesting that it would be unjust to put someone in a lower position if they did not deserve it.

 

If I go to my aerobics class as I should, I sign up for it and the instructor says 'do this, do that' and puts me through all sorts of grueling activity for which I suffer for a short period of time, would that be considered "unjust"?  How is it unjust if I signed up for it and if I, in the end, benefit from it.

 

In a similar light, I am not putting together what you are suggesting that the only way God could put us in this world which is for our benefit and growth in the end is if we did something wrong.  That is the only way it could be just?   I really don't understand that concept and that premise you are suggesting.  Why would it be unjust for God to say, "if you choose to become mortal for a period of time, I will subject you to certain hardships but in the end it will be for your good and is the only pathway to have eternal joy, it is up to you to choose."  Then when we are subjected to these hardships in all their forms it is just because we agreed to do it.  Why does it have to be because of a transgression?  To me, that is not very clear.

 

Becoming mortal is either a good thing or a bad thing as far as our eternal progression goes.  If we say it is a good thing and a necessary thing then it wouldn't be discouraged or unjust or looked at as any kind of punishment for some wrong doing. If it is a bad thing, then we could say that the only way it is just is if it is a punishment for some wrong doing.  I don't look at this life as a punishment but as an opportunity to grow and I think Adam and Eve looked at it the same way.

 

I think we have to keep in mind that it is God who provided the Savior too.  If it was a one ended deal of just sending us here and then He walks away from it, then I could see this life as a punishment.  But that is not the case, it was a package deal.  He sent us here with a Savior. It is not a punishment any more than going to the gym is a punishment.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think you are missing a point.  Perhaps this question will help you understand something missing.  Does the Father possess the knowledge of good and evil (symbolically partaken of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil) and does he get to stay?  What exactly is it that the Father is forbidding?

As we have already discussed, eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is not the same thing as possesing the knowledge of good and evil, it is simply the doorway to one day have that knowledge.  It was a lie of Satan to suggest that as soon as they ate the fruit that they would be like God.  They obviously were not like God once they ate the fruit but just starting the journey at the bottom of the ladder.  There are several more steps to be able to possess the knowledge and live in paradise at the same time.  He is forbiding them to remain in a state of immortality after they decide they do not want to remain in a stagnant immortality existence.

[Traveler]

Why does the Fall have to be "just" in the sense that I think you are suggesting that it would be unjust to put someone in a lower position if they did not deserve it.

 

If I go to my aerobics class as I should, I sign up for it and the instructor says 'do this, do that' and puts me through all sorts of grueling activity for which I suffer for a short period of time, would that be considered "unjust"?  How is it unjust if I signed up for it and if I, in the end, benefit from it.

 

In a similar light, I am not putting together what you are suggesting that the only way God could put us in this world which is for our benefit and growth in the end is if we did something wrong.  That is the only way it could be just?   I really don't understand that concept and that premise you are suggesting.  Why would it be unjust for God to say, "if you choose to become mortal for a period of time, I will subject you to certain hardships but in the end it will be for your good and is the only pathway to have eternal joy, it is up to you to choose."  Then when we are subjected to these hardships in all their forms it is just because we agreed to do it.  Why does it have to be because of a transgression?  To me, that is not very clear.

 

Becoming mortal is either a good thing or a bad thing as far as our eternal progression goes.  If we say it is a good thing and a necessary thing then it wouldn't be discouraged or unjust or looked at as any kind of punishment for some wrong doing. If it is a bad thing, then we could say that the only way it is just is if it is a punishment for some wrong doing.  I don't look at this life as a punishment but as an opportunity to grow and I think Adam and Eve looked at it the same way.

 

I think we have to keep in mind that it is God who provided the Savior too.  If it was a one ended deal of just sending us here and then He walks away from it, then I could see this life as a punishment.  But that is not the case, it was a package deal.  He sent us here with a Savior. It is not a punishment any more than going to the gym is a punishment.

 

Death is the just results of sin.  Justice demands that one cannot be placed into a condition of death without sin - if there is something else that will bring about death - I would be interested in how you came to such knowledge and what valadation you have.

[Traveler]

As we have already discussed, eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is not the same thing as possesing the knowledge of good and evil, it is simply the doorway to one day have that knowledge.  It was a lie of Satan to suggest that as soon as they ate the fruit that they would be like God.  They obviously were not like God once they ate the fruit but just starting the journey at the bottom of the ladder.  There are several more steps to be able to possess the knowledge and live in paradise at the same time.  He is forbiding them to remain in a state of immortality after they decide they do not want to remain in a stagnant immortality existence.

 

How is partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil different than knowing good from evil?  How did G-d obtain his knowledge of good and evil - did he or did he not partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?  Why do you think we would partake of knowledge in a manner different than the Father and if so why was that possibility not made available to us?  Is partaking of the tree of Life different than receiving eternal life?

 

In general what does partaking of fruit mean in scripture?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Death is the just results of sin.  Justice demands that one cannot be placed into a condition of death without sin - if there is something else that will bring about death - I would be interested in how you came to such knowledge and what valadation you have.

How did Christ experience death then?

[Seminarysnoozer]

How is partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil different than knowing good from evil?  How did G-d obtain his knowledge of good and evil - did he or did he not partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?  Why do you think we would partake of knowledge in a manner different than the Father and if so why was that possibility not made available to us?  Is partaking of the tree of Life different than receiving eternal life?

 

In general what does partaking of fruit mean in scripture?

I responded to your question which was "Does the Father possess the knowledge of good and evil?"  Which is different than the start of such possession, eating of the fruit.  Adam and Eve did not possess the knowledge of good and evil at the moment they ate the fruit, they were just oppened to that opportunity to have the knowledge.   Yes, the Father when He first partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, I presume, did not get to stay in paradise but now that He has received redemption and been made whole, He can partake of that fruit (symbolically) or He can have had previously partaken of the fruit (because I don't think it has to be a continuous thing as it is more of a doorway or a fork in the road) and stay.

 

To me "partaking of the fruit" symbolizes taking into one self, to make part of one self, similar to partaking of the bread and water in Sacrament.  The fruit of Life is the symbolic force taken into the paradisical body that keeps it alive.  The partaking of the tree of death makes it so that that paradisical body unique to the garden of Eden that only Adam and Eve were given has to die.   And before you say death requires justification, consider that before Adam and Eve came to paradise they had no physical body, it was given to them so they might die.  In other words, God gave them the paradisical body temporarily, so to give it up in death by eating of the tree of death is no loss, they were given the body in the first place and will receive a permanent body in the end. 

[Traveler]

I responded to your question which was "Does the Father possess the knowledge of good and evil?"  Which is different than the start of such possession, eating of the fruit.  Adam and Eve did not possess the knowledge of good and evil at the moment they ate the fruit, they were just oppened to that opportunity to have the knowledge.   Yes, the Father when He first partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, I presume, did not get to stay in paradise but now that He has received redemption and been made whole, He can partake of that fruit (symbolically) or He can have had previously partaken of the fruit (because I don't think it has to be a continuous thing as it is more of a doorway or a fork in the road) and stay.

 

To me "partaking of the fruit" symbolizes taking into one self, to make part of one self, similar to partaking of the bread and water in Sacrament.  The fruit of Life is the symbolic force taken into the paradisical body that keeps it alive.  The partaking of the tree of death makes it so that that paradisical body unique to the garden of Eden that only Adam and Eve were given has to die.   And before you say death requires justification, consider that before Adam and Eve came to paradise they had no physical body, it was given to them so they might die.  In other words, God gave them the paradisical body temporarily, so to give it up in death by eating of the tree of death is no loss, they were given the body in the first place and will receive a permanent body in the end. 

 

Please forgive me Seminary - but this post look to me to be a lot of guessing and speculation.  Not that I am opposed to speculation but I think it is important to clearly separate speculation from what has been received as revelation.  I would point to Romans 5:12

 

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

As I read this scripture (not just this verse but chapter 5).  In essence Adam and Eve initiated sin in the world but death comes to all because all have sinned.  In other words if someone somehow ended up here in this world without sin – they would not die – unless or until sin was justly charged to them.  Now this is something difficult for me even though we have example in Christ who gave his sinless self as payment for the sin of others.  There is only one way I have determined that this is possible but that is a separate discussion from the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

 

Again turning to scripture - this time James 1:12-15

 

 

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

 

There are a couple of elements here we see in the garden epoch.  G-d does not tempt any man to sin.  This is why we see Satan tempting Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit - which must have some reference to sin in order that death can result.  It is my speculation that the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil must be more than just knowledge of good and evil because - as I have stated - Having knowledge of good and evil does not appear to be to be a sin - in part because I believe G-d the Father possesses such knowledge without sin.  But I am at a complete loss what that sin is that is associated to the fruit of such a tree is.  My only response is that we do not know - but If you know such a thing???  Again I ask you not to present speculation but empirical evidence that I may prove and understand what it is you are talking about.  You said - something like a door - but this is meaningless symbolism to me because I cannot relate empirically to what is it you may be trying to communicate.  Without substance to this discussion - I cannot accept that it relates to truth.  Maybe someone else can - but it is beyond my faith and understanding.

 

 

As I was reading through this post of mine - I suddenly realized something I have never seen before.  The sin of Adam and Eve was not so much partaking of the fruit of the tree but entertaining and following after the temptation of Satan.  Just as the scripture in John verses 14 & 15 point out

[Seminarysnoozer]

Please forgive me Seminary - but this post look to me to be a lot of guessing and speculation.  Not that I am opposed to speculation but I think it is important to clearly separate speculation from what has been received as revelation.  I would point to Romans 5:12

As I read this scripture (not just this verse but chapter 5).  In essence Adam and Eve initiated sin in the world but death comes to all because all have sinned.  In other words if someone somehow ended up here in this world without sin – they would not die – unless or until sin was justly charged to them.  Now this is something difficult for me even though we have example in Christ who gave his sinless self as payment for the sin of others.  There is only one way I have determined that this is possible but that is a separate discussion from the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

 

Again turning to scripture - this time James 1:12-15

 

 

There are a couple of elements here we see in the garden epoch.  G-d does not tempt any man to sin.  This is why we see Satan tempting Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit - which must have some reference to sin in order that death can result.  It is my speculation that the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil must be more than just knowledge of good and evil because - as I have stated - Having knowledge of good and evil does not appear to be to be a sin - in part because I believe G-d the Father possesses such knowledge without sin.  But I am at a complete loss what that sin is that is associated to the fruit of such a tree is.  My only response is that we do not know - but If you know such a thing???  Again I ask you not to present speculation but empirical evidence that I may prove and understand what it is you are talking about.  You said - something like a door - but this is meaningless symbolism to me because I cannot relate empirically to what is it you may be trying to communicate.  Without substance to this discussion - I cannot accept that it relates to truth.  Maybe someone else can - but it is beyond my faith and understanding.

 

 

As I was reading through this post of mine - I suddenly realized something I have never seen before.  The sin of Adam and Eve was not so much partaking of the fruit of the tree but entertaining and following after the temptation of Satan.  Just as the scripture in John verses 14 & 15 point out

When I read Romans 5 I hear over and over again, "by one man".   By one man death came to everyone, by one man life came to everyone.  What is so hard about that concept that you can't wrap your head around that?

Adam opened the door for everyone to pass via his transgression, a transgression that we are not responsible for as in Article of Faith #2 "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression."  And we believe that Christ freely overcame that "sin" or that transgression that allowed death for all, one man overcame the issue that caused death for all just like one man caused the death to occur in the first place.  That is not such a hard concept to understand any more than it is to understand that Christ can overcome death for everyone.  Romans 5; "18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

 

Reading that carefully, the offense that comes to all men is the same one that Christ freely reverses for all men.  That offense is the physical death, not the spiritual death.  I think you are here combining the two.  Reread verses 18 and 19 with the idea that the "all" refers to physical death and the "many" refers to spiritual death.  As fits with our gospel, we "all" overcome the physical death but only some will overcome the spiritual death.

 

It is unfortunate choice of words that it says that sin has come to all men because really what that means is that everyone gets a carnal body, a sinful body.  But we know that that particular death is overcome freely by Christ for all.  So, whatever kind of thing that made all man "sinners" you think happened by the Fall, that very thing is freely overcome by Christ, that, then, can only be talking about the physical death, the physical death comes to all men.

 

This is as opposed to the spiritual death which is by an individuals choice; see 2 Nephi below.

 

When you click on the footnote for "sinners" it is refering to the natural man, to being carnal.  Adam and Eve are the only ones who received a paradisiacal body first, unless you have some other insight or knowledge or reference, then it would be speculation that we all received a paradisiacal body before this fallen one.  To Fall, Adam and Eve required a paradisiacal body.  This is something I think you are leaving out of the picture.  Just like Christ needed to be the Only Begotten in order to be our Savior (He had a different body from all of us).  Unless we all had a paradisiacal body first we could not have fallen like Adam and Eve did - a paradisiacal body to a carnal body.  The opportunity to have a carnal body intruduces all to sin (but that doesn't mean we automatically sin, just that it comes over us, we get a carnal body in other words, we can be in the world without being of the world).  Because without a carnal body as opposed to a paradisiacal body we would exist in a paradisiacal state and never die.  With the carnal body that everyone gets freely from the act of one man, sin passes over all of us, in this sense he is refering the the body we received a carnal sinful one which dies.

 

2 Nephi; "25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

 26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

 27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself."

 

We don't have to worry about the carnal death we all suffer because it is freely overcome by Christ and therefore is not a punishment but an opportunity. Therefore there is no transgression or sin that we have to commit to make that happen. The door was opened by Adam for all of us to move forward with the plan of becoming "sinners" - taking on a carnal body.

 

You are going to have to face two huge hurdles in your line of speculation, that being we all were in the same situation as Adam and Eve.  1. We all were first created with a paradisiacal body.  2. We were all (everyone on Earth) in an Eternal marriage before coming here.  I don't see how everyone on Earth could have been in the same situation as Adam and Eve, their situation was unique and thus it is by one man that we became carnal.  This is why the Creation is also a "pillar" to the plan, the Creation of Adam and Eve in a paradisiacal state, they couldn't have fallen without that happening first and they couldn't have fallen without them being a couple who could have potentially been commanded to multiply. 

[Traveler]

When I read Romans 5 I hear over and over again, "by one man".   By one man death came to everyone, by one man life came to everyone.  What is so hard about that concept that you can't wrap your head around that?

Adam opened the door for everyone to pass via his transgression, a transgression that we are not responsible for as in Article of Faith #2 "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression."  And we believe that Christ freely overcame that "sin" or that transgression that allowed death for all, one man overcame the issue that caused death for all just like one man caused the death to occur in the first place.  That is not such a hard concept to understand any more than it is to understand that Christ can overcome death for everyone.  Romans 5; "18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

 

Reading that carefully, the offense that comes to all men is the same one that Christ freely reverses for all men.  That offense is the physical death, not the spiritual death.  I think you are here combining the two.  Reread verses 18 and 19 with the idea that the "all" refers to physical death and the "many" refers to spiritual death.  As fits with our gospel, we "all" overcome the physical death but only some will overcome the spiritual death.

 

It is unfortunate choice of words that it says that sin has come to all men because really what that means is that everyone gets a carnal body, a sinful body.  But we know that that particular death is overcome freely by Christ for all.  So, whatever kind of thing that made all man "sinners" you think happened by the Fall, that very thing is freely overcome by Christ, that, then, can only be talking about the physical death, the physical death comes to all men.

 

This is as opposed to the spiritual death which is by an individuals choice; see 2 Nephi below.

 

When you click on the footnote for "sinners" it is refering to the natural man, to being carnal.  Adam and Eve are the only ones who received a paradisiacal body first, unless you have some other insight or knowledge or reference, then it would be speculation that we all received a paradisiacal body before this fallen one.  To Fall, Adam and Eve required a paradisiacal body.  This is something I think you are leaving out of the picture.  Just like Christ needed to be the Only Begotten in order to be our Savior (He had a different body from all of us).  Unless we all had a paradisiacal body first we could not have fallen like Adam and Eve did - a paradisiacal body to a carnal body.  The opportunity to have a carnal body intruduces all to sin (but that doesn't mean we automatically sin, just that it comes over us, we get a carnal body in other words, we can be in the world without being of the world).  Because without a carnal body as opposed to a paradisiacal body we would exist in a paradisiacal state and never die.  With the carnal body that everyone gets freely from the act of one man, sin passes over all of us, in this sense he is refering the the body we received a carnal sinful one which dies.

 

2 Nephi; "25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

 26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

 27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself."

 

We don't have to worry about the carnal death we all suffer because it is freely overcome by Christ and therefore is not a punishment but an opportunity. Therefore there is no transgression or sin that we have to commit to make that happen. The door was opened by Adam for all of us to move forward with the plan of becoming "sinners" - taking on a carnal body.

 

You are going to have to face two huge hurdles in your line of speculation, that being we all were in the same situation as Adam and Eve.  1. We all were first created with a paradisiacal body.  2. We were all (everyone on Earth) in an Eternal marriage before coming here.  I don't see how everyone on Earth could have been in the same situation as Adam and Eve, their situation was unique and thus it is by one man that we became carnal.  This is why the Creation is also a "pillar" to the plan, the Creation of Adam and Eve in a paradisiacal state, they couldn't have fallen without that happening first and they couldn't have fallen without them being a couple who could have potentially been commanded to multiply. 

 

 

The one thing that you did not explain is death - death comes only by sin and only by sin.  Therefore we cannot die because of Adam's transgression it must be from our own sins or the scriptures lie.  If it was as you say - we would be punished for Adam's transgression because we all die.  Everyone that dies - if G-d is just - must die as punishment for their own sin(s) and not anyone else's. 

 

All arguments you are making about situation are meaningless because death and the just cause of death is not addressed beyond Adam and Eve.  The situation does not have to be exactly the same for us all to sin and justly die.  I do not believe I am speculating anything.  If there is justice involved then sin = death and death requires sin.  Simple rhetorical logic given us in scripture tells us the following:

 

1: Death comes by sin

2: We all have sinned = therefore we all die.

3: Christ atones for our sin – no one is saved outside of Christ’s atonement.

4: Atonement is not necessary unless there or until there is sin.  Atonement is necessary for everyone.

5: Without the Atonement of Christ death for all would be eternal.

[Anddenex]

Isn't that what Joseph Fielding Smith is saying here; "Now this is the way I interpret that: The Lord said to Adam, here is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you want to stay here, then you cannot eat of that fruit. If you want to stay here, then I forbid you to eat it. But you may act for yourself, and you may eat of it if you want to. And if you eat it, you will die."?

 

I am not sure myself Seminary if this accurately describes the fall, because it requires interpretation and it doesn't appear to me the Lord specifies such, however, this is not to say this isn't the way it is.

 

In scripture, we are informed, sin took place and transgression.  This statement, doesn't correlate, at least to me, as sin if Adam and Eve partook.

 

If I said this to one of my children, I wouldn't consider their choice then sin, but progression.  Is it possilble this is an error past along in the Bible, that Adam and Eve sinned, yet it is confirmed also in the New Testament and other sources of revelation, so I think not.

 

I think Joseph Fielding Smith was brilliant and much studied, yet, this interpretation is hard for me to accept because I do not see how this could be sin then.

[Traveler]

How did Christ experience death then?

 

Christ suffered death by his taking upon him our sins.  But this is not as straight forward as some may think.   Agency is involved and if you understand the term “agency” you understand that there must be a grantor and proctor.  Since our agency comes from or through Christ he also has a responsibility for what we do with our agency that he grants us.  This is why we crucify Christ by our sins.

[Seminarysnoozer]

The one thing that you did not explain is death - death comes only by sin and only by sin.  Therefore we cannot die because of Adam's transgression it must be from our own sins or the scriptures lie.  If it was as you say - we would be punished for Adam's transgression because we all die.  Everyone that dies - if G-d is just - must die as punishment for their own sin(s) and not anyone else's. 

 

All arguments you are making about situation are meaningless because death and the just cause of death is not addressed beyond Adam and Eve.  The situation does not have to be exactly the same for us all to sin and justly die.  I do not believe I am speculating anything.  If there is justice involved then sin = death and death requires sin.  Simple rhetorical logic given us in scripture tells us the following:

 

1: Death comes by sin

2: We all have sinned = therefore we all die.

3: Christ atones for our sin – no one is saved outside of Christ’s atonement.

4: Atonement is not necessary unless there or until there is sin.  Atonement is necessary for everyone.

5: Without the Atonement of Christ death for all would be eternal.

So, what sin did the infant who dies at one day old commit?  And what sin did Christ commit?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Christ suffered death by his taking upon him our sins.  But this is not as straight forward as some may think.   Agency is involved and if you understand the term “agency” you understand that there must be a grantor and proctor.  Since our agency comes from or through Christ he also has a responsibility for what we do with our agency that he grants us.  This is why we crucify Christ by our sins.

If we crucify Christ by our sins and takes them upon Him then by what sin do we die?

 

He can't take them on and leave some of it for us at the same time. 

 

And, please answer specifically what sin did the baby that dies at one day old commit that deserves death?

 

Why are you so immovable from the idea that in order for death to come it has to be done individually.  Why can't death come to all from one man's act and life come to all through one man's act?   Why is that an impossibility for you?

 

By taking on carnality we "sin".  In other words, by taking on death, a carnal corupted body we fall.   We move downward and forward.  Downward body, forward spiritually. Mortality is a step forward not backward.  It is downward in that we are in a lower state, behind the veil, behind the carnal body but it is forward in our spiritual progression.  Sin is a step backward spiritually.  To say that all step backward spiritually by entering mortality is not correct. (at least in my opinion)

[Seminarysnoozer]

Traveler, see above.

 

Thanks for this stimulating conversation.  I think 2 Nephi says it in an interresting way; " 6 For as death hath passed upon all men, to fulfil the merciful plan of the great Creator, there must needs be a power of resurrection, and the resurrection must needs come unto man by reason of the fall; and the fall came by reason of transgression; and because man became fallen they were cut off from the presence of the Lord."

 

There are two things that I take from this.  Death is by way of the "merciful plan of the great Creator" and "because man became fallen" then "they were cut off from the presence of the Lord." 

 

Also in Moses we read; "10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

 11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient."

 

Sounds like they were pretty happy about the event. This is not a punishment and it was done purposeful.

 

“When Adam was driven out of the Garden of Eden, the Lord passed a sentence upon him. Some people have looked upon that sentence as being a dreadful thing. It was not; it was a blessing. …

“In order for mankind to obtain salvation and exaltation it is necessary for them to obtain bodies in this world, and pass through the experiences and schooling that are found only in mortality. …

“The fall of man came as a blessing in disguise, and was the means of furthering the purposes of the Lord in the progress of man, rather than a means of hindering them” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:113–14)

 

If as you say, point #1 death comes by sin, and as stated here this death is a blessing then you would have to say that sin led to a blessing.

 

Joseph Fielding Smith; "I’m very, very grateful that in the Book of Mormon, and I think elsewhere in our scriptures, the fall of Adam has not been called a sin. It wasn’t a sin. … What did Adam do? The very thing the Lord wanted him to do; and I hate to hear anybody call it a sin, for it wasn’t a sin. Did Adam sin when he partook of the forbidden fruit? I say to you, no, he did not! Now, let me refer to what was written in the book of Moses in regard to the command God gave to Adam. [Moses 3:16–17.]"

 

Also, George Q Cannon; "This being ‘conceived in sin’ [Moses 6:55], as I understand it, is only that they are in the midst of sin. They come into the world where sin is prevalent, and it will enter into their hearts, but it will lead them ‘to taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good."

 

In other words sin coming upon all men means that we are in the midst of sin, it doesn't necesarily mean that all men sin.  We know that babies do not sin. 

[Traveler]

Traveler, see above.

 

Thanks for this stimulating conversation.  I think 2 Nephi says it in an interresting way; " 6 For as death hath passed upon all men, to fulfil the merciful plan of the great Creator, there must needs be a power of resurrection, and the resurrection must needs come unto man by reason of the fall; and the fall came by reason of transgression; and because man became fallen they were cut off from the presence of the Lord."

 

There are two things that I take from this.  Death is by way of the "merciful plan of the great Creator" and "because man became fallen" then "they were cut off from the presence of the Lord." 

 

Also in Moses we read; "10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

 11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient."

 

Sounds like they were pretty happy about the event. This is not a punishment and it was done purposeful.

 

“When Adam was driven out of the Garden of Eden, the Lord passed a sentence upon him. Some people have looked upon that sentence as being a dreadful thing. It was not; it was a blessing. …

“In order for mankind to obtain salvation and exaltation it is necessary for them to obtain bodies in this world, and pass through the experiences and schooling that are found only in mortality. …

“The fall of man came as a blessing in disguise, and was the means of furthering the purposes of the Lord in the progress of man, rather than a means of hindering them” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:113–14)

 

If as you say, point #1 death comes by sin, and as stated here this death is a blessing then you would have to say that sin led to a blessing.

 

Joseph Fielding Smith; "I’m very, very grateful that in the Book of Mormon, and I think elsewhere in our scriptures, the fall of Adam has not been called a sin. It wasn’t a sin. … What did Adam do? The very thing the Lord wanted him to do; and I hate to hear anybody call it a sin, for it wasn’t a sin. Did Adam sin when he partook of the forbidden fruit? I say to you, no, he did not! Now, let me refer to what was written in the book of Moses in regard to the command God gave to Adam. [Moses 3:16–17.]"

 

Also, George Q Cannon; "This being ‘conceived in sin’ [Moses 6:55], as I understand it, is only that they are in the midst of sin. They come into the world where sin is prevalent, and it will enter into their hearts, but it will lead them ‘to taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good."

 

In other words sin coming upon all men means that we are in the midst of sin, it doesn't necesarily mean that all men sin.  We know that babies do not sin. 

 

I think to understand we need to go back to the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  I submit that the knowledge is empirical knowledge – in that it comes through our experience.   The knowledge of evil comes from the experience of sin that results in death.  In short we gain the knowledge of sin by death.  We know in scripture there are two kinds of death that we experience.   Spiritual death is the more profound and dangerous.   We also experience physical death and through the experience of death we have a perfect (complete) knowledge of evil. 

 

But there is more – we must have knowledge of good – which is in opposition to evil or the only possible result of evil that is death.  Obviously the opposite of death is life both spiritual and physical life.  But to be the complete opposite of death – there must be life without death; which is eternal life.  We also empirically experience this as well through the resurrection into eternal life that is the gift of the atonement of Christ.  This then is the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil – death and resurrection to eternal life.

 

I will not pretend to know what sin an infant committed in order to experience death.  My understanding is that the cause of death (spiritual and physical) is sin and that according to our 2^nd Article of Faith we cannot suffer death (which is the wage of sin) because of someone else’s sin or transgression.  Now if sin is not really the cause of death – meaning there is something else that results in death – I would be most interested.  Therefore I see that the reason of death is sin.

[Seminarysnoozer]

 

I will not pretend to know what sin an infant committed in order to experience death.  My understanding is that the cause of death (spiritual and physical) is sin and that according to our 2^nd Article of Faith we cannot suffer death (which is the wage of sin) because of someone else’s sin or transgression.  Now if sin is not really the cause of death – meaning there is something else that results in death – I would be most interested.  Therefore I see that the reason of death is sin.

The LDS gospel does not support any idea that a child is conceived in sin or carries any kind of taint from sin of any kind when they enter this world.  All children enter this world pure and innocent before God and the Lord.  If you really believe our gospel then how is it that they die without having any sin on their head and remaining pure??

 

Bruce R. McConkie; "

Are children tainted with original sin?

Absolutely not. There is no such thing as original sin as such is defined in the creeds of Christendom. Such a concept denies the efficacy of the atonement. Our revelation says: “Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning”—meaning that spirits started out in a state of purity and innocence in preexistence—“and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God” (D&C 93:38)—meaning that all children start out their mortal probation in purity and innocence because of the atonement. Our revelations also say, “The Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world.” (Moses 6:54.)

Are children conceived in sin?

Since there is no such thing as original sin, as that expression is used in modern Christendom, it follows that children are not conceived in sin. They do not come into the world with any taint of impurity whatever. When our scriptures say that “children are conceived in sin,” they are using words in an entirely different way than when the same language is recited in the creeds of the world. The scriptural meaning is that they are born into a world of sin so that “when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.” (Moses 6:55.)"

 

 

The atonement not only counteracts sin but all the bad things that happen to us including death; Alma 7; "

“And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people.

“And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people”  In these verses there is no mention of sin.  The atonement takes away even those things that cause suffering that are not related to sin!!!.  And specifically in these verses we learn that the atonement takes away the bands of death which is listed as an infirmity, "according to the flesh", not a sin!!!

 

So, please understand the description given on LDS.org that when we are talking about "all sin" it is talking about being born into a world of sin.  That is all that is meant by that to cause the physical death.  The second spiritual death is caused by a person choosing to sin once they have the agency and accountability to do so, after the age of 8 and therefore is not applicable to the phrase "all sin".   WIth the "all sin" phrase, the body is tainted, it is a corrupt physical body and therefore dies but the spirit within it can remain pure.  Before the age of 8 the spirit does not become carnal, it does not take on the nature of the body.  To take on the nature of the body one must choose to take it on, that choice occurs after the age of 8. Otherwise we would have to believe in infant baptism.  Don't you understand or believe in the reasons behind not performing infant baptism?

_____

 

If that is what we believe that all of us come into this world pure and without any "original guilt" then how do we die?   Probably the same answer that applies to why the blind man was born blind, who sinned to make him blind?   John 9; "

 1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."

 

So, according to the Bible, it is possible to be born with some type of ailment that results in grief without having sinned.  Why? So "the works of God should be made manifest in him."

 

____

 

I will answer your question directly but it may not be satisfying to you; What causes death?  Agency. Where did agency come from? The Lord.

 

God gave man agency, with it He gave man evil as well as good, He gave life and death.  He explains this to Enoch in Moses 7 because Enoch had similar questions.  Enoch wondered why the Lord would weep even though He created all these things.  He weeped because man chooses to do evil with his agency.  Moses 7; "

 31 And thou hast taken Zion to thine own bosom, from all thy creations, from all eternity to all eternity; and naught but peace, justice, and truth is the habitation of thy throne; and mercy shall go before thy face and have no end; how is it thou canst weep?

 32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;"

 

It was talked about and agreed upon in the War in Heaven. All of us agreed with the plan and then death was given via agency.  And then the Earth was chained by Satan and evil poured into Adam and Eve's veins making them carnal (symbolically), " 48 And it came to pass that Enoch looked upon the earth; and he heard a voice from the bowels thereof, saying: Wo, wo is me, the mother of men; I am pained, I am weary, because of the wickedness of my children. When shall I rest, and be cleansed from the filthiness which is gone forth out of me? When will my Creator sanctify me, that I may rest, and righteousness for a season abide upon my face?"

 

The Earth was changed because of Adam and Eve's Fall.  Then we are all affected by that change because, metaphorically speaking, the Earth is the "mother of men" in which filthiness comes forth.  Our bodies are of dust but will return to dust.

 

__________

 

Also consider the idea that we are to let the body die, that is a choice that we make as we live life, do we choose life eternal or death, the metaphoric choice between following the body's drives vs following the spirit.  In other words, death is a choice placed before us, the tree of death - the body or the tree of life - the spirit.  Explained in Romans 8; "

 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

 

I think this again reinforces the idea that we are born into a world surrounded by sin not that we have to sin to die. Our very body is "sin" and if we live after the flesh we die but if we live through the spirit and ignore the body "mortify the deeds of the body" we will live.

[Traveler]

The LDS gospel does not support any idea that a child is conceived in sin or carries any kind of taint from sin of any kind when they enter this world.  All children enter this world pure and innocent before God and the Lord.  If you really believe our gospel then how is it that they die without having any sin on their head and remaining pure??

 

Bruce R. McConkie; "

Are children tainted with original sin?

Absolutely not. There is no such thing as original sin as such is defined in the creeds of Christendom. Such a concept denies the efficacy of the atonement. Our revelation says: “Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning”—meaning that spirits started out in a state of purity and innocence in preexistence—“and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God” (D&C 93:38)—meaning that all children start out their mortal probation in purity and innocence because of the atonement. Our revelations also say, “The Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world.” (Moses 6:54.)

Are children conceived in sin?

Since there is no such thing as original sin, as that expression is used in modern Christendom, it follows that children are not conceived in sin.

 

....

 

Dear friend - I think you are confusing terms.  Traditional Christianity has long believed that Adam and Eve committed the original sin (having sex) in Eden and were thus cast out.  The Apple Corp uses this as their corporate symbol – an apple with a bite taken out of it.  Thus from Traditional Christianity comes the idea that children are conceived in sin.  LDS doctrine is contrary to this doctrine and teaches that intimate relationships within the covenant of marriage are not a sin.  This is far from the discussion I am trying to have.

 

Now let us go back to the words of McConkie:

 

 

Our revelation says: “Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning”—meaning that spirits started out in a state of purity and innocence in preexistence—“and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God” (D&C 93:38)—meaning that all children start out their mortal probation in purity and innocence because of the atonement.

 

Note that it is clearly stated that children in their infant state are innocent before G-d.  Not because they have not transgressed and therefore become fallen but because they are redeemed because of the atonement.   In short we come into this world as fallen beings but are redeemed from whatever transgression occurred that caused us all to fall so that we require, need and must have the atonement of Christ.

 

If there was no sin or no transgression that brought about the fall for all fallen individuals, then children would not need the atonement - in fact to believe the atonement is necessary for a pure being without sin - is to laugh at justice and not believe in justice and law.

 

Our LDS doctrine clearly states that we are not punished for Adam's transgression.  What is the punishment Adam and Eve received for their transgression?  The clear answer is death.  How then cay you say an infant child that suffers death do not do so because of Adam and Eve?  Which is according to our doctrine not the reason we die.  If there is justice and justice demands that sin results in death - then if justice demands that we not suffer any consequence because of the Transgression of Adam and Eve - What then is the cause of the death if it is not a sin or transgression that does occur with some infant children that die?

 

I see only two possibilities – One: That we are fallen beings because of our just individual transgression.  Or Two: That we are fallen beings because we are being punished along with Adam and Eve for their transgression.  I do not accept #Two because I do not believe such a possibility is just or according to revealed doctrine of the restoration.  It appears that you do not believe #One because you do not want to or perhaps there is a #Three – That you have not included anywhere in your posts – or if you have – I missed it.   Until I find a better understanding - I am sticking with the one I have carefully pondered and came to understand after considering all other possibilities I have imagined or encountered.

[Seminarysnoozer]

 

If there was no sin or no transgression that brought about the fall for all fallen individuals, then children would not need the atonement - in fact to believe the atonement is necessary for a pure being without sin - is to laugh at justice and not believe in justice and law.

 

Our LDS doctrine clearly states that we are not punished for Adam's transgression.  What is the punishment Adam and Eve received for their transgression?  The clear answer is death.  How then cay you say an infant child that suffers death do not do so because of Adam and Eve?  Which is according to our doctrine not the reason we die.  If there is justice and justice demands that sin results in death - then if justice demands that we not suffer any consequence because of the Transgression of Adam and Eve - What then is the cause of the death if it is not a sin or transgression that does occur with some infant children that die?

 

I see only two possibilities – One: That we are fallen beings because of our just individual transgression.  Or Two: That we are fallen beings because we are being punished along with Adam and Eve for their transgression.  I do not accept #Two because I do not believe such a possibility is just or according to revealed doctrine of the restoration.  It appears that you do not believe #One because you do not want to or perhaps there is a #Three – That you have not included anywhere in your posts – or if you have – I missed it.   Until I find a better understanding - I am sticking with the one I have carefully pondered and came to understand after considering all other possibilities I have imagined or encountered.

Thanks for your response.  I think with each exchange we are refining our views (at least I am) and I appreciate that.

 

Adam and Eve did not make an "individual" transgression, it was together as a married and given couple. So, keep that in mind when comparing our situation to theirs. They were in a unique situation, a married couple with immortal physical bodies in a world where nothing dies.  You cannot remove the situation from the event.  The creation of that setting is vital to the Fall.  Without the creation of all things in that state there could be no Fall. The transgression cannot be removed from the law associated with the Garden of Eden state of immortality and paradise.  The transgression that led to death, as far as we know, cannot be made without those conditions.  So, keep that in mind when making these suggestions that we all had to make a similar transgression.

 

I think the "punishment" that was suffered by Adam and Eve is directly related to their unique situation, that being the fact that they were the only ones created with a paradisiacal body first.  I think this is an issue that you have not directly addressed in your relating the idea that everyone had to pass through similar conditions to come to mortality.  I do not read and even through temple instruction see anything that indicates that each one of us were first created in "Eden" and then underwent a change to that body after choosing to eat of the tree of knowledge. 

 

From what I understand our first body is the mortal one.  This puts all of us in a different category than Adam and Eve.  They started out in paradise and it is because of that they were placed in a position to Fall. I think this is significant.  Otherwise, why couldn't they have just made the choice as spirits and then came into this world with a physical body that was mortal?  The "punishment" exists because of the state they were in before the Fall. Whereas for us, not having any body at all, receiving a mortal, carnal body is a step up.  There is no "punishment" in receiving this fallen body, even if it is a 'lemon' and has to be put down in the end.

 

Adam and Eve were given a set of laws in the Garden of Eden that we were not given.  They were unique to the Garden and would only be applicable to the Garden.  The law that was transgressed is in reference to those laws related to the Garden of Eden, you may freely eat of all these trees but of the tree of knowledge that was forbidden as they couldn't remain within that law (the laws of the Garden of Eden) and die.  "When Adam came into this world, he was not subject to death. He was immortal. He could have lived forever. Had he remained in the Garden of Eden and not transgressed the law that had been given to him, he and Eve would have been there yet. …“… Adam had not passed through a resurrection when he was in the Garden of Eden, and having not passed through a resurrection, spirit and body could be separated by the violation of the law. And the Lord provided the law so it could happen, because the mortal estate in which we find ourselves is absolutely necessary to our exaltation” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:91)"

 

Let me ask you this, when you received your current physical body (when you were born on Earth) was that the first time you had received a physical body? 

 

If you answer yes, then you cannot say that we all passed through the same challenge that Adam and Eve did.

 

To have the law given to them in the Garden of Eden would require that they are married.  I think you are going to have a hard time explaining how every person in this world was first living as an eternally married couple in the Garden of Eden and given the charge to multiply and replenish the Earth so that they may transgress the law of the Garden of Eden to Fall.

 

According to Bruce Mcconkie in "The Three Pillars of Eternity"; "Who is Michael? He is a spirit son of the great Elohim. Under Christ he led the armies of righteousness when there was war in heaven. Our revelations say that he "was the son of God" (Moses 6:22), that he was "the first flesh [the first mortal flesh] upon earth, the first man also" (Moses 3:7), and that he was "the first man of all men" (Moses 1:34). He is Adam our father; he is the presiding high priest over all the earth. Under Christ, who is "the Holy One," he holds "the keys of salvation" (D&C 78:16). He is the only one by whom the fall came. And anything you may have heard to the contrary, from whatever source, is false."

 

If he, Adam, was the first man of all men as stated in Moses 1:34 and by him the fall came, then how could it be that anybody else would or could receive a paradisiacal body after that event, a body that could not die?   If Adam's fall brought death into the world and there is a gaurd placed on the tree of life, then where and how did we all make the same transgression with the same situation as Adam?  There would have to be equal numbers of Gardens of Eden as there are people, each one with a tree of life being gaurded after that person fell.

 

Am I reading you right that you believe that every person on Earth experienced the same thing as Adam and Eve, were given in Eternal marriage with a paradisiacal body in a Garden of Eden with the mandate to multiply and replenish the Earth and then chose to give up that existence by eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge and yet cast out into this world with their mate, together as an adult couple, being found naked in this world?   When did that happen for each of us?  

 

If you think it happened a different way for each of us compared to how it happened to Adam and Eve, as a married couple, then it is on you to now describe this transgression that is different from Adam and Eve's that resulted in mortality for each of us.

 

The creation is a pillar of eternity because the creation had to be of a specific type to fall, it had to first be in a paradisiacal form in order to fall from a higher place to the lower place.  Without creation of the Garden of Eden setting there could be no Fall. 

[Traveler]

Thanks for your response.  I think with each exchange we are refining our views (at least I am) and I appreciate that.

 

Adam and Eve did not make an "individual" transgression, it was together as a married and given couple. So, keep that in mind when comparing our situation to theirs. They were in a unique situation, a married couple with immortal physical bodies in a world where nothing dies.  You cannot remove the situation from the event.  The creation of that setting is vital to the Fall.  Without the creation of all things in that state there could be no Fall. The transgression cannot be removed from the law associated with the Garden of Eden state of immortality and paradise.  The transgression that led to death, as far as we know, cannot be made without those conditions.  So, keep that in mind when making these suggestions that we all had to make a similar transgression.

 

I think the "punishment" that was suffered by Adam and Eve is directly related to their unique situation, that being the fact that they were the only ones created with a paradisiacal body first.  I think this is an issue that you have not directly addressed in your relating the idea that everyone had to pass through similar conditions to come to mortality.  I do not read and even through temple instruction see anything that indicates that each one of us were first created in "Eden" and then underwent a change to that body after choosing to eat of the tree of knowledge. 

 

From what I understand our first body is the mortal one.  This puts all of us in a different category than Adam and Eve.  They started out in paradise and it is because of that they were placed in a position to Fall. I think this is significant.  Otherwise, why couldn't they have just made the choice as spirits and then came into this world with a physical body that was mortal?  The "punishment" exists because of the state they were in before the Fall. Whereas for us, not having any body at all, receiving a mortal, carnal body is a step up.  There is no "punishment" in receiving this fallen body, even if it is a 'lemon' and has to be put down in the end.

 

Adam and Eve were given a set of laws in the Garden of Eden that we were not given.  They were unique to the Garden and would only be applicable to the Garden.  The law that was transgressed is in reference to those laws related to the Garden of Eden, you may freely eat of all these trees but of the tree of knowledge that was forbidden as they couldn't remain within that law (the laws of the Garden of Eden) and die.  "When Adam came into this world, he was not subject to death. He was immortal. He could have lived forever. Had he remained in the Garden of Eden and not transgressed the law that had been given to him, he and Eve would have been there yet. …“… Adam had not passed through a resurrection when he was in the Garden of Eden, and having not passed through a resurrection, spirit and body could be separated by the violation of the law. And the Lord provided the law so it could happen, because the mortal estate in which we find ourselves is absolutely necessary to our exaltation” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:91)"

 

Let me ask you this, when you received your current physical body (when you were born on Earth) was that the first time you had received a physical body? 

 

If you answer yes, then you cannot say that we all passed through the same challenge that Adam and Eve did.

 

To have the law given to them in the Garden of Eden would require that they are married.  I think you are going to have a hard time explaining how every person in this world was first living as an eternally married couple in the Garden of Eden and given the charge to multiply and replenish the Earth so that they may transgress the law of the Garden of Eden to Fall.

 

According to Bruce Mcconkie in "The Three Pillars of Eternity"; "Who is Michael? He is a spirit son of the great Elohim. Under Christ he led the armies of righteousness when there was war in heaven. Our revelations say that he "was the son of God" (Moses 6:22), that he was "the first flesh [the first mortal flesh] upon earth, the first man also" (Moses 3:7), and that he was "the first man of all men" (Moses 1:34). He is Adam our father; he is the presiding high priest over all the earth. Under Christ, who is "the Holy One," he holds "the keys of salvation" (D&C 78:16). He is the only one by whom the fall came. And anything you may have heard to the contrary, from whatever source, is false."

 

If he, Adam, was the first man of all men as stated in Moses 1:34 and by him the fall came, then how could it be that anybody else would or could receive a paradisiacal body after that event, a body that could not die?   If Adam's fall brought death into the world and there is a gaurd placed on the tree of life, then where and how did we all make the same transgression with the same situation as Adam?  There would have to be equal numbers of Gardens of Eden as there are people, each one with a tree of life being gaurded after that person fell.

 

Am I reading you right that you believe that every person on Earth experienced the same thing as Adam and Eve, were given in Eternal marriage with a paradisiacal body in a Garden of Eden with the mandate to multiply and replenish the Earth and then chose to give up that existence by eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge and yet cast out into this world with their mate, together as an adult couple, being found naked in this world?   When did that happen for each of us?  

 

If you think it happened a different way for each of us compared to how it happened to Adam and Eve, as a married couple, then it is on you to now describe this transgression that is different from Adam and Eve's that resulted in mortality for each of us.

 

The creation is a pillar of eternity because the creation had to be of a specific type to fall, it had to first be in a paradisiacal form in order to fall from a higher place to the lower place.  Without creation of the Garden of Eden setting there could be no Fall. 

 

I believe our mortal body is the first physical tabernacle we have received.   It is given to us as part of our covenant as a fallen being – I believe that the only way to become a fallen being is by transgression of the law of G-d by which we were governed before we fell.

 

I speculate that every person experienced the temptation by Satan to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil to become – as Satan tempted – like the G-ds.  That is what I think is the similarity of our fall to the fall of Adam and Eve.

 

I have different views on several accounts. 

 

First - Adam and Eve did not partake as a married couple - though they were married they symbolically partook of the fruit separately as individuals.  In fact I believe this is the great coup of Satan, that is, to divide Adam and Eve by tricking (tempting) them to make the decision to partake separately.   But since this is a tangent to the discussion I have not determined to bring up this point or discuss it.  As a note to this thought – It is a concept I received from Hugh Nibley.

 

But back to the problem at hand.  I do not believe that any man or woman will suffer death because of Adam and Eve.

 

Here is where I believe we differ.  If you disagree with me please explain why.

1.  That death is the punishment for sin - I believe this to be according to the eternal law by which G-d governs.  Do you agree or do you believe death can come by some other means.

 

2.  I believe that Adam and Eve were punished for their transgression by or with the consequence of death – both spiritually and physically.  Do you believe we are we punished with death because of Adam and Eve’s transgression?  If not because of their transgression – why are we punished with death?  Do you believe that our punishment has anything to do with something Adam and Eve did – directly or indirectly?  If you answer yes – then explain why you believe we are punished because of Adam and Eve and what they did and not for anything that we could have done.

 

3. Since LDS doctrine establishes that no one else is punished for the transgression of Adam and Eve – why does anyone else die?  I believe the only reasonable answer is that we suffer the consequence (punishment of death) because of our own transgression that we all committed before we were born.

 

4.  Because of our discussion I have come to believe that the great sin that caused the fall was not partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  I cannot see how that is a sin.  I believe that the sin was the result of partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge because we were tempted by Satan to partake thinking that we would become like G-d – which we thought was our purpose.  This is symbolically demonstrated by Satan or the symbolism of the Serpent in the garden epch.  According to your view – what did you do to become a falling being and suffer the consequence or punishment of death?

[The Folk Prophet]

I know I'm just jumping in here...but......

 

1.  That death is the punishment for sin - I believe this to be according to the eternal law by which G-d governs.  Do you agree or do you believe death can come by some other means.

 

Of course it can. First of all, we ALL die spiritually when we are separated from God coming to earth and physically no matter how righteous we are or are not, and none of us sinned to earn either of those. Death is punishment for sin does not equal sin is the only reason for death. And, as has (I believe) been pointed out (I haven't read every word of the above posts, but I think this was said), the Savior experienced death with no sin (both physically and spiritually).

 

2.  I believe that Adam and Eve were punished for their transgression by or with the consequence of death – both spiritually and physically.  Do you believe we are we punished with death because of Adam and Eve’s transgression?  If not because of their transgression – why are we punished with death?  Do you believe that our punishment has anything to do with something Adam and Eve did – directly or indirectly?  If you answer yes – then explain why you believe we are punished because of Adam and Eve and what they did and not for anything that we could have done.

 

Who says death is a punishment in every case. It's obvious that it CAN be used as a punishment. But we all die physically, regardless of our worthiness, and the Savior, once again...ergo...death cannot possibly be ONLY a punishment.

 

3. Since LDS doctrine establishes that no one else is punished for the transgression of Adam and Eve – why does anyone else die?  I believe the only reasonable answer is that we suffer the consequence (punishment of death) because of our own transgression that we all committed before we were born.

 

So...Jesus transgressed? Adam? Abraham? Isaiah? Joseph Smith? All transgressors in the pre-existence? I'm not buying.

 

This is doctrinally unsupportable. It's a logical fallacy that depends on an unsupportable conclusion. C is only true if A and B are true. A. No one is punished for someone else's transgression = true. B. Death only comes as a result of transgression = FALSE.

 

4.  Because of our discussion I have come to believe that the great sin that caused the fall was not partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  I cannot see how that is a sin.  I believe that the sin was the result of partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge because we were tempted by Satan to partake thinking that we would become like G-d – which we thought was our purpose.  This is symbolically demonstrated by Satan or the symbolism of the Serpent in the garden epch.  According to your view – what did you do to become a falling being and suffer the consequence or punishment of death?

 

The entire philosophy herein is based on the idea that death is only a punishment. But the idea suffers from a variety of problematic logical turns. The biggest being the Savior's experience.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe our mortal body is the first physical tabernacle we have received.   It is given to us as part of our covenant as a fallen being – I believe that the only way to become a fallen being is by transgression of the law of G-d by which we were governed before we fell.

 

I speculate that every person experienced the temptation by Satan to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil to become – as Satan tempted – like the G-ds.  That is what I think is the similarity of our fall to the fall of Adam and Eve.

 

I have different views on several accounts. 

 

First - Adam and Eve did not partake as a married couple - though they were married they symbolically partook of the fruit separately as individuals.  In fact I believe this is the great coup of Satan, that is, to divide Adam and Eve by tricking (tempting) them to make the decision to partake separately.   But since this is a tangent to the discussion I have not determined to bring up this point or discuss it.  As a note to this thought – It is a concept I received from Hugh Nibley.

 

But back to the problem at hand.  I do not believe that any man or woman will suffer death because of Adam and Eve.

 

Here is where I believe we differ.  If you disagree with me please explain why.

1.  That death is the punishment for sin - I believe this to be according to the eternal law by which G-d governs.  Do you agree or do you believe death can come by some other means.

 

2.  I believe that Adam and Eve were punished for their transgression by or with the consequence of death – both spiritually and physically.  Do you believe we are we punished with death because of Adam and Eve’s transgression?  If not because of their transgression – why are we punished with death?  Do you believe that our punishment has anything to do with something Adam and Eve did – directly or indirectly?  If you answer yes – then explain why you believe we are punished because of Adam and Eve and what they did and not for anything that we could have done.

 

3. Since LDS doctrine establishes that no one else is punished for the transgression of Adam and Eve – why does anyone else die?  I believe the only reasonable answer is that we suffer the consequence (punishment of death) because of our own transgression that we all committed before we were born.

 

4.  Because of our discussion I have come to believe that the great sin that caused the fall was not partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  I cannot see how that is a sin.  I believe that the sin was the result of partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge because we were tempted by Satan to partake thinking that we would become like G-d – which we thought was our purpose.  This is symbolically demonstrated by Satan or the symbolism of the Serpent in the garden epch.  According to your view – what did you do to become a falling being and suffer the consequence or punishment of death?

 

I think, in order to really be talking about the same things, you have to separate out which death you are talking about when you say death is a punishment.  Spiritual death may be a punishment, physical death is not.  The reason physical death is not a punishment is because it allows us to not stay with a corrupted mortal body.  We want to mortify the deeds of the body by being alive in Christ. Those that love the carnal nature of our bodies would see the physical death as punishment.  If their treasure, the desire of their heart, is towards things of this world, then yes that would be a punishment to lose anything pertaining to this world of dust but then their treasures also turn to dust in the end.  To claim the physical death is a punishment is to also suggest that there is some yearning and sorrow for when it has to be turned in which is to express some love for the carnal.  The unjust servant wants to claim the stewardship for himself as if he owned it all along.   He never owned it in the first place.  That is the test of this life, to see which body we are willing to sacrifice to death, the physical body or the spiritual body.  One has to die.  Either we love the carnal and are upset when the carnal body dies or we love the spiritual and are content when the physical body dies.

 

Also, death is a needed step to bring about the works of God.  Can't you agree with that?  If that is the case then how is bringing about the works of God a punishment?   Death is needed to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man, it is necessary to bring about joy.  Can't you agree with that?  If death is needed to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man and to bring about joy then how is it a punishment? 

 

Also, do not ignore the first estate test.  We all had the opportunity to decide whether we wanted to partake of the tree of knowledge, metaphorically speaking, and in essence, decided that we wanted to die as a part of the first estate test.  In part, the choice between following Lucifer and his tempting proposal as part of the first estate test vs God's proposal as part of the first estate test was to choose no death or death.  That was explained to us during that battle.  We all chose death at that time. We wanted to go forward with God's plan and then started to work towards making death happen at that time. If we wanted to make that happen in the first place, to follow God's plan of going through a probationary period which would require death, how is that a punishment?

 

Separating out spiritual death and only talking about physical death specifically, please show me what scriptural or other reference you have that says the physical death of the mortal, corrupted body is punishment (again, not talking about spiritual death caused by sin).

 

Paul is the most verbal source we have, in my opinion, about separating out the differences between the body and the spirit and expresses it many times such as 1 Timothy 5; "6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth."  This is the second spiritual death, to live for the body which kills the spirit.

 

Also, I think it is a good thing to ponder the phrase; "by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified".  Ponder the idea that the blood does not justify.  In other words, the physical death and the mortal body (represented by blood) only has to be sanctified not justified.  There is no law that was broken for the physical body to die, otherwise it would also have to be justified as opposed to just sanctified.  Yes, sanctified is a cleansing from sin but the difference has to do with being surrounded by sin vs sin being a part of the being.  These are subtle differences.  It has to do with living in the world without being of the world.  If a person becomes of the world, spiritual death, then they have to be justified.  If it is just being in the world but not of the world, then the person just has to be sanctified - in other words, removing the sins of the world that surround them. (i.e. - the death of the physical body and leaving the mortal world behind)

 

I think it is said beautifully in Moses 6; " 55 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good."  When they are exposed to the passion of the mortal body which is "sin", they are "conceived in sin" (the key word being "in") - the spirit being inside the outer covering of sin, they are now in the world but not yet of the world.  But if it becomes part of their heart (heart's desire - or their spirit's choice) then they start to die spiritually taking on the characteristics of the body and this is only after they "begin to grow up", not before!  

And Moses 6; "59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

 60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;"

 

We were born into this world by blood, which is different than Adam and Eve who were born into this world without blood and then made a choice to have blood enter into their body (blood being a metaphor for sin or a sinful world).  Christ spills blood, forsaking the world, giving up the world and everything in it so that we might also be sanctified "from all sin" - so that we might die the physical death to get rid of all these "sins" or carnal nature, by the blood.  That death is a free gift along with its associated resurrection.  Alma 11:" 45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption."   In other words, the death of the physical body is the way that we "can no more see corruption".  How in the world is that punishment??  Physical death is a blessing and we read in verse 44 that the physical death even comes to the righteous.

 

I think your view of this is skewed because you are not separating out the physical death from the spiritual death and therefore calling it a "punishment".  The infant child that dies before the age of 8 and is therefore protected from the effects of spiritual death, is punished by coming here and suffering a physical death?  Do you really believe that?  We shouted for joy at the prospect of coming here, this is not a punishment.  Neal A Maxwell; "Besides, this is the life that long, long ago when in our first estate   its prospects were presented to us and over which we shouted for joy.  I grant you there may be days here that we may wonder what all the shouting was about.  But, we’re here and we’re in the midst of all of these things, which life’s circumstances thrust upon us, but also those circumstances which are the result of a tutoring Father in Heaven who seeth fit to inflict certain things upon us because he loves us."    Not because He is punishing us!!!!

 

I think also your view of this is in part because of your resistance to accepting the fact that we all come into this life pure and innocent and free from sin, all of us!!!  McConkie; "They are saved through the atonement and because they are free from sin. They come from God in purity; no sin or taint attaches to them in this life; and they return in purity to their Maker. Accountable persons must become pure through repentance and baptism and obedience. Those who are not accountable for sins never fall spiritually and need not be redeemed from a spiritual fall which they never experienced. Hence the expression that little children are alive in Christ. “Little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten,” the Lord says. (D&C 29:46.)"

 

So when we are talking about death being a punishment for a person who was never accountable (i.e. - died before the age of 8) they never sinned, there is no sin attached to them as they enter this world and as they die there is no sin attached to them.  If there is no sin attached to them how do they die a physical death?   This is how we might compromise; the body contains sin, we are conceived in sin, meaning the corrupted body is full of sin and so it can die.  But we are not our physical bodies and at least before the age of 8, we are told it does not attach or taint our spirits.

[The Folk Prophet]

The Savior experienced both deaths upon the cross. Hence - "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"

 

From Jeffrey R. Holland:

I speak of those final moments for which Jesus must have been prepared intellectually and physically but which He may not have fully anticipated emotionally and spiritually—that concluding descent into the paralyzing despair of divine withdrawal when He cries in ultimate loneliness, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

[Traveler]

I think, in order to really be talking about the same things, you have to separate out which death you are talking about when you say death is a punishment.  Spiritual death may be a punishment, physical death is not.  The reason physical death is not a punishment is because it allows us to not stay with a corrupted mortal body.  We want to mortify the deeds of the body by being alive in Christ. Those that love the carnal nature of our bodies would see the physical death as punishment.  If their treasure, the desire of their heart, is towards things of this world, then yes that would be a punishment to lose anything pertaining to this world of dust but then their treasures also turn to dust in the end.  To claim the physical death is a punishment is to also suggest that there is some yearning and sorrow for when it has to be turned in which is to express some love for the carnal.  The unjust servant wants to claim the stewardship for himself as if he owned it all along.   He never owned it in the first place.  That is the test of this life, to see which body we are willing to sacrifice to death, the physical body or the spiritual body.  One has to die.  Either we love the carnal and are upset when the carnal body dies or we love the spiritual and are content when the physical body dies.

 

Also, death is a needed step to bring about the works of God.  Can't you agree with that?  If that is the case then how is bringing about the works of God a punishment?   Death is needed to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man, it is necessary to bring about joy.  Can't you agree with that?  If death is needed to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man and to bring about joy then how is it a punishment? 

 

Also, do not ignore the first estate test.  We all had the opportunity to decide whether we wanted to partake of the tree of knowledge, metaphorically speaking, and in essence, decided that we wanted to die as a part of the first estate test.  In part, the choice between following Lucifer and his tempting proposal as part of the first estate test vs God's proposal as part of the first estate test was to choose no death or death.  That was explained to us during that battle.  We all chose death at that time. We wanted to go forward with God's plan and then started to work towards making death happen at that time. If we wanted to make that happen in the first place, to follow God's plan of going through a probationary period which would require death, how is that a punishment?

 

Separating out spiritual death and only talking about physical death specifically, please show me what scriptural or other reference you have that says the physical death of the mortal, corrupted body is punishment (again, not talking about spiritual death caused by sin).

 

Paul is the most verbal source we have, in my opinion, about separating out the differences between the body and the spirit and expresses it many times such as 1 Timothy 5; "6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth."  This is the second spiritual death, to live for the body which kills the spirit.

 

Also, I think it is a good thing to ponder the phrase; "by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified".  Ponder the idea that the blood does not justify.  In other words, the physical death and the mortal body (represented by blood) only has to be sanctified not justified.  There is no law that was broken for the physical body to die, otherwise it would also have to be justified as opposed to just sanctified.  Yes, sanctified is a cleansing from sin but the difference has to do with being surrounded by sin vs sin being a part of the being.  These are subtle differences.  It has to do with living in the world without being of the world.  If a person becomes of the world, spiritual death, then they have to be justified.  If it is just being in the world but not of the world, then the person just has to be sanctified - in other words, removing the sins of the world that surround them. (i.e. - the death of the physical body and leaving the mortal world behind)

 

I think it is said beautifully in Moses 6; " 55 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good."  When they are exposed to the passion of the mortal body which is "sin", they are "conceived in sin" (the key word being "in") - the spirit being inside the outer covering of sin, they are now in the world but not yet of the world.  But if it becomes part of their heart (heart's desire - or their spirit's choice) then they start to die spiritually taking on the characteristics of the body and this is only after they "begin to grow up", not before!  

And Moses 6; "59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

 60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;"

 

We were born into this world by blood, which is different than Adam and Eve who were born into this world without blood and then made a choice to have blood enter into their body (blood being a metaphor for sin or a sinful world).  Christ spills blood, forsaking the world, giving up the world and everything in it so that we might also be sanctified "from all sin" - so that we might die the physical death to get rid of all these "sins" or carnal nature, by the blood.  That death is a free gift along with its associated resurrection.  Alma 11:" 45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption."   In other words, the death of the physical body is the way that we "can no more see corruption".  How in the world is that punishment??  Physical death is a blessing and we read in verse 44 that the physical death even comes to the righteous.

 

I think your view of this is skewed because you are not separating out the physical death from the spiritual death and therefore calling it a "punishment".  The infant child that dies before the age of 8 and is therefore protected from the effects of spiritual death, is punished by coming here and suffering a physical death?  Do you really believe that?  We shouted for joy at the prospect of coming here, this is not a punishment.  Neal A Maxwell; "Besides, this is the life that long, long ago when in our first estate   its prospects were presented to us and over which we shouted for joy.  I grant you there may be days here that we may wonder what all the shouting was about.  But, we’re here and we’re in the midst of all of these things, which life’s circumstances thrust upon us, but also those circumstances which are the result of a tutoring Father in Heaven who seeth fit to inflict certain things upon us because he loves us."    Not because He is punishing us!!!!

 

I think also your view of this is in part because of your resistance to accepting the fact that we all come into this life pure and innocent and free from sin, all of us!!!  McConkie; "They are saved through the atonement and because they are free from sin. They come from God in purity; no sin or taint attaches to them in this life; and they return in purity to their Maker. Accountable persons must become pure through repentance and baptism and obedience. Those who are not accountable for sins never fall spiritually and need not be redeemed from a spiritual fall which they never experienced. Hence the expression that little children are alive in Christ. “Little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten,” the Lord says. (D&C 29:46.)"

 

So when we are talking about death being a punishment for a person who was never accountable (i.e. - died before the age of 8) they never sinned, there is no sin attached to them as they enter this world and as they die there is no sin attached to them.  If there is no sin attached to them how do they die a physical death?   This is how we might compromise; the body contains sin, we are conceived in sin, meaning the corrupted body is full of sin and so it can die.  But we are not our physical bodies and at least before the age of 8, we are told it does not attach or taint our spirits.

 

Why are children redeemed?  What are they redeemed from?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Why are children redeemed?  What are they redeemed from?

 

Why are they redeemed? This accords with Joseph Smith’s statement: “The Lord takes many away, even in infancy, that they may escape the envy of man, and the sorrows and evils of this present world; they were too pure, too lovely, to live on earth.” (Teachings, pp. 196–97.) It is implicit in the whole scheme of things that those of us who have arrived at the years of accountability need the tests and trials to which we are subject and that our problem is to overcome the world and attain that spotless and pure state which little children already possess."

 

They are redeemed from the "sorrows and evils of this present world". 

 

They are redeemed from the cost of passage through mortality, the cost of receiving a body. The cost does not always imply sin. There are many things that we endure in this life innocently. It's like getting a scholarship for those children.

 

Elder Christopherson uses a great metaphor of what it means to be redeemed; "In colonial times, labor was in great demand in America. During the 18th and early 19th centuries, potential immigrant laborers were recruited in Great Britain, Germany, and other European countries, but many who were willing to go could not afford the cost of travel. It was not uncommon for these to travel under an indenture or contract, promising to work after their arrival for a certain period of time without wages as payment for their passage. Others came with the promise that family members already in America would pay their fare upon arrival, but if that didn’t happen, the newcomers were obliged to pay their own costs through indentured service. The term used to describe these indentured immigrants was “redemptioners.” They had to redeem the cost of their passage—in a sense, purchase their freedom—by their labor.¹

Among the most significant of Jesus Christ’s descriptive titles is Redeemer. As indicated in my brief account of immigrant “redemptioners,” the word redeem means to pay off an obligation or a debt. Redeem can also mean to rescue or set free as by paying a ransom. If someone commits a mistake and then corrects it or makes amends, we say he has redeemed himself. Each of these meanings suggests different facets of the great Redemption accomplished by Jesus Christ through His Atonement, which includes, in the words of the dictionary, “to deliver from sin and its penalties, as by a sacrifice made for the sinner."

 

And...

"The Atonement also satisfies the debt justice owes to us by healing and compensating us for any suffering we innocently endure. “For behold, he suffereth the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam” (2 Nephi 9:21; see also Alma 7:11–12)"