Are we righteously obligated to pursue wealth and influence?


Backroads
 Share

Recommended Posts

I'm not afraid to say it. This is disgusting, 70 or not.

 

Watch or membership? based on the information provided the watch could have cost anywhere from 5 to 50K. I personally usually buy used vehicles that cost around 15K, so yes a 15K watch would be extremely excessive for me, but for someone that likely earns million(s) a year it could just be a small luxury (like designer shoes, although I personally find that excessive as well, I will spend on quality but not a designer name, quality is not that expensive). Its all a matter of degree, we don't expect middle class families to live on the bare minimum and donate the rest, the wealthy just have a lot more excess, and since they have worked for it I think they are justified in using some of it to reward themselves.

 

The golf membership is big dollars, but we are talking about a business owner - lots of business gets done in these private clubs, if that is the cost of entry into the circle where he networks and cultivates influence to continue to provide jobs for others, is it really that excessive? I have had lots of experience working for people who are extremely wealthy, most of them have been extremely philanthropic, I don't think I should judge what they spend based on my lifestyle, we all have weaknesses (I buy too many books) but in general wealthy people do a great deal of good in the world, I expect the unnamed 70 does, and has been using his wealth wisely, otherwise the Lord would not have called him to his current role.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

There is a scripture about seeking wealth somewhere but I can't think well enough to remember where it is.  The jist is if we seek riches to to the Lord's work we will receive them.  I think this applies to the GAs.

 

Not sure if this is the scripture you're thinking of but the one that comes to my mind is in Matt 6:19, 33

As far as influence - this can be tricky.  My husband is in a position at work in which he oversees a lot of people and he has to be careful about what he says because some might take it to mean that if they don't do xyz or follow his example, they're job/progress is at risk or they might do xyz to try to gain favor.  So reaching a point of influence doesn't always mean you'll be able to have as much influence as you might think.

 

Jacob 2:18-19. 

 

But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.

 

And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Watch or membership? based on the information provided the watch could have cost anywhere from 5 to 50K. I personally usually buy used vehicles that cost around 15K, so yes a 15K watch would be extremely excessive for me, but for someone that likely earns million(s) a year it could just be a small luxury (like designer shoes, although I personally find that excessive as well, I will spend on quality but not a designer name, quality is not that expensive). Its all a matter of degree, we don't expect middle class families to live on the bare minimum and donate the rest, the wealthy just have a lot more excess, and since they have worked for it I think they are justified in using some of it to reward themselves.

 

It's irrelevant. It's 5-50k that could have been given to the poor and needy, or otherwise used to build the kingdom of the Lord.

 

The golf membership is big dollars, but we are talking about a business owner - lots of business gets done in these private clubs, if that is the cost of entry into the circle where he networks and cultivates influence to continue to provide jobs for others, is it really that excessive?

 

Fair point. But I don't really buy it. $125k membership to a golf club to do business? But in fairness....maybe.

 

I don't think I should judge what they spend based on my lifestyle, we all have weaknesses (I buy too many books) but in general wealthy people do a great deal of good in the world, I expect the unnamed 70 does, and has been using his wealth wisely, otherwise the Lord would not have called him to his current role.

 

Nonsense. The requirement to be a 70 is not perfection.

 

I'm sorry...125k for a membership to a club? Thousands upon thousands for a watch?

 

I'm judging. Not the man. That's between him and God. The action though? With the potential exception of the membership being required for business (I don't buy that for a second though), I still call it disgusting.

 

When God blessed you with money you use it to build His kingdom, not to play golf and wear ridiculous watches.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lets not be naive Russell Nelson of the 12 who has been mentioned here earlier was the president of the society for vascular surgery, the director of the american board of thoracic surgery, chairman of the council on cardiovascular surgery for the AHA and president of the Utah state medical association. This does not include his personal history as a practicing physician.  I have not been to his home, but i think it is safe to assume that he lives a life style in terms of clothing, furniture, household goods, vacations that many of us can only dream of. Some on this forum might call it excessive

 

What qualifies as excessive? This is not for us to decide.

 

I'll name the 70.  Elder Craig C Christensen, who is in the presidency of the 70.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's irrelevant. It's 5-50k that could have been given to the poor and needy, or otherwise used to build the kingdom of the Lord.

 

 

I do understand your point - to us it is excessive and unneccesary, but I do think that we need to look at it as a matter of degree.

 

I took my family to Disneyland last year, I did the cheapest trip I could, using airmiles and travelling in the off season, but I still spent $2500. Thats money that I could have given to the poor and needy, and I'm sure there are many who have less than me, who only camp or don't vacation at all that would be disgusted at my action. My family has two vehicles, could we make do with one, possible, but extremely inconvenient, but thats $450 extra in gas and insurance that I could give the poor and needy.

 

I guess the point I am trying to make is if someone is tithing, and presumably supporting charity, most likely in excess of what my family even earns total in a year, are they obliged to forgo a more comfortable lifestyle as well, and donate everything in excess of what I deem lifestyle needs? Should I be reducing my expenses to the bare minimum, and forgo living in a comfortable house, and driving cars so that I can give more, because there are those that live with less than me?

 

 

Nonsense. The requirement to be a 70 is not perfection.

 

 

 

I wasn't trying to imply that he was called because he was perfect, but that he wouldn't have been called if he had not been, mostly at least, stewarding what he had been blessed with wisely.

 

 

 

When God blessed you with money you use it to build His kingdom, not to play golf and wear ridiculous watches.

 

All of us who are blessed with some excess use some of what we recieve for personal recreation and wants, where do we draw the line at what is reasonable and what is not? Just by virture of living where I do I am blessed with more luxurious lifestyle than many people in the world will ever have, I don't consider myself wealthy, but I can be comfortable if I manage carefully. I need to be grateful for that, but do I need to forsake it all to better build the Kingdom?

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What qualifies as excessive? This is not for us to decide.

 

I'm perfectly capable of deciding that a 5-50k watch qualifies as excessive. So does a solid gold car.

 

It is one's own business between them and the Lord how much they choose to spend on a watch. But in my point of view, spending that much on a watch is offensive.

 

And it IS TOO for us to decide. We'd better decide these things. We are accountable for how we handle our stewardships. We had better decide what is and isn't excessive, what is and isn't appropriate, and what is and isn't of worth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I do understand your point - to us it is excessive and unneccesary, but I do think that we need to look at it as a matter of degree.

 

I took my family to Disneyland last year, I did the cheapest trip I could, using airmiles and travelling in the off season, but I still spent $2500. Thats money that I could have given to the poor and needy, and I'm sure there are many who have less than me, who only camp or don't vacation at all that would be disgusted at my action. My family has two vehicles, could we make do with one, possible, but extremely inconvenient, but thats $450 extra in gas and insurance that I could give the poor and needy.

 

I guess the point I am trying to make is if someone is tithing, and presumably supporting charity, most likely in excess of what my family even earns total in a year, are they obliged to forgo a more comfortable lifestyle as well, and donate everything in excess of what I deem lifestyle needs? Should I be reducing my expenses to the bare minimum, and forgo living in a comfortable house, and driving cars so that I can give more, because there are those that live with less than me?

 

 

 

I wasn't trying to imply that he was called because he was perfect, but that he wouldn't have been called if he had not been, mostly at least, stewarding what he had been blessed with wisely.

 

 

 

All of us who are blessed with some excess use some of what we recieve for personal recreation and wants, where do we draw the line at what is reasonable and what is not? Just by virture of living where I do I am blessed with more luxurious lifestyle than many people in the world will ever have, I don't consider myself wealthy, but I can be comfortable if I manage carefully. I need to be grateful for that, but do I need to forsake it all to better build the Kingdom?

 

 

I mostly agree with you. Just FYI.

 

But I do not think it is valid to compare a family vacation and transportation to what amounts to a ritzy piece of man-jewelry.

 

And no one, not even the church leadership, handles their stewardships wisely in all regards. We all make bad decisions. I'm sure he is a great guy. I do not hold what I view as a poor choice against him. I would gladly follow him as a church leader, sustain him, and trust his financial advise. I still think buying an expensive watch is a waste and a mistake.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have mixed feelings about this. Even though I agree that it is almost obscene to see someone spending thousands/millions of dollars in something that could be used to help the poor and the needy, the same people also give a lot of money for great causes, it is not like they spend all the money for themselves. I am not sure how I feel about it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a moderately nice watch that my wife bought me. It retailed for $300 but was on sale for half off. Plus other Kohl's discounts and I think she paid something like $75 for it. And it is my precious. I will hand it down as an heirloom someday.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not necessarily an opinion to the original post, but just an interesting anecdote from my past career.  In my training while working for the airline industry, we were told not to have "our pocketbook" in our mind while pricing what the customer asked for.  I had to remind myself of this on numerous occasions.  For example, a customer calls in and wants to buy airline tickets from LAX to JFK.  To me, a reasonable price for a ticket would be around $400 to $650 RT.  And if a sale was going on in that particular market, then that would even be lower.  I would ask the customer what time they wanted to fly and the dates.  I would price what they asked for.  As a reservations agent, I would have enough experience to know if the price could be brought down for that particular market.  If I told them the price was $900 RT, and they said "book it", I would do so.  If they asked me if the price could be lowered, then I would start to search different flights, days, etc. for them to get a lower price.  As an agent I could usually "read" people and tell if the price was too high for them.  That's when I would tell them they could lower the price by traveling different days, or just switch to different flights for the days they wanted to travel.   It was often amazing to me that people would still purchase the higher priced tickets.  I had to learn to not put my pocketbook in their pockets. I learned to take credit card information for tickets that were over $20,000 on some international markets without batting-an-eye.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lets not be naive Russell Nelson of the 12 who has been mentioned here earlier was the president of the society for vascular surgery, the director of the american board of thoracic surgery, chairman of the council on cardiovascular surgery for the AHA and president of the Utah state medical association. This does not include his personal history as a practicing physician.  I have not been to his home, but i think it is safe to assume that he lives a life style in terms of clothing, furniture, household goods, vacations that many of us can only dream of. Some on this forum might call it excessive

 

What qualifies as excessive? This is not for us to decide.

 

I'll name the 70.  Elder Craig C Christensen, who is in the presidency of the 70.

I do not think it's "safe" nor appropriate to assume this.

We don't know what his income was. It's none of our business. Board presidencies and directorships don't necessarily come with a salary.

I have known wealthy people in my lifetime. A (very) few lived what many would consider ostentatiously. Most have lived a very modest lifestyle. You would never know by their home, car, wardrobe, etc. that they were millionaires. Their wealth went to (quietly, usually anonymously) helping others.

I think some people are too preoccupied with what OTHER people do with the money that THEY earned.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So another musing...

 

Joe becomes a brain surgeon in order to provide for his family, heal the sick, earn money to give to others, influence others for the better, and to generally make good use of the talents given to him.

 

Bill works in some vague job making a decent and sufficient if still modest income.  He provides for his family, pays his tithing, and even gives a bit to charitable causes.  But his position does no real social good nor particularly make the most of Bill's talents. 

 

All else being equal, could Joe be considered more righteous than Bill?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's irrelevant. It's 5-50k that could have been given to the poor and needy, or otherwise used to build the kingdom of the Lord.

 

 

This is stuff that only the ones who are not wealthy says.  This is the exact same argument as the Church's City Creek Mall and the exact same mentality that leads to anti-business/anti-profit sentiments.

 

Just like there are myriads of reasons why the Church decided to sink bazillions on a high-tech mall, there are also myriads of reasons why one buys a 50K watch.  You can sit on your high horse and judge all you want.  But that would be very narrow-minded of you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't view material wealth as a Christian obligation or as a sign of righteousness.  There are many many weatlhy people who have the goods, but aren't happy, and on the flip side, there are those who don't have very much and can be deemed as "poor" who are happy and joyful with their lot in life.  Rather, I think our obligation is to be good stewards of the blessings we've been given, in money, time and talent.  If you are a person who has been blessed with the talent to become wealthy, than that's wonderful, thank God for the blessings He's given you and "give it back" to Him through charity, showing the love of Christ to "the least of these".  Don't have much money but do have lots of free time?  Rather than spend it watching tv, volunteer your free time to an organization or neighbor who could use some help.  And everyone, no matter what they make for a paycheck, can be a good steward of the blessings they've been given.  My husband and I try to live simply, we've definitely had our financial struggles, and I'm sure we'll have more, but we know that God will always take care of us and provide. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is stuff that only the ones who are not wealthy says.  This is the exact same argument as the Church's City Creek Mall and the exact same mentality that leads to anti-business/anti-profit sentiments.

 

Nonsense. Personal expenses and business expenses are not the same in any regard. Buying a jet ski for yourself is not the same as having company jet skis. Moreover, there's a whole big huge ol mammoth gaping expanse between the church's determinations (as I believe are inspired by God) as to how to spend its money and an individuals decision to buy an expensive watch. I can judge that as a wasteful and mistaken action without judging the individual as unworthy or something. Moreover, how can that possibly be true when I am pro business, pro City Creek Mall, pro capitalist, and anti expensive watch. One simply does not lead to the other.

 

Just like there are myriads of reasons why the Church decided to sink bazillions on a high-tech mall, there are also myriads of reasons why one buys a 50K watch.  You can sit on your high horse and judge all you want.  But that would be very narrow-minded of you.

 

It's easy to say there are a myriad of good reasons to buy a 50k watch. Throw some good ones out. I'm not unreasonable... <_< (why do I sense that may get another laugh from Suzie?)...I'll acquiesce to some good solid logic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So another musing...

 

Joe becomes a brain surgeon in order to provide for his family, heal the sick, earn money to give to others, influence others for the better, and to generally make good use of the talents given to him.

 

Bill works in some vague job making a decent and sufficient if still modest income.  He provides for his family, pays his tithing, and even gives a bit to charitable causes.  But his position does no real social good nor particularly make the most of Bill's talents. 

 

All else being equal, could Joe be considered more righteous than Bill?

 

Nope, that would be judging them.  We can't weigh a person by his paycheck, or how mundance his job is.  Perhaps while Bill is working in this vague job, he's praying, and prayer is worth so much more to the bettermant of society than his measly paycheck.  Perhaps, while he's working, he's joyful in his work and when he's around, is coworkers are more joyful b/c his happiness is infectious.  That would be spreading the love of Christ into the lives of his coworkers.  Perhaps his "talent" is in quiet prayer and a joyful countenance, and even if that's not as far reaching as a brain surgeon or billionaire, it's worth more to those he comes in contact with everyday, and to his family.  So even if Bill has a vague job, he can still thank God that he has a job and is able to provide for his family and still give to church and charity.       

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So another musing...

 

Joe becomes a brain surgeon in order to provide for his family, heal the sick, earn money to give to others, influence others for the better, and to generally make good use of the talents given to him.

 

Bill works in some vague job making a decent and sufficient if still modest income.  He provides for his family, pays his tithing, and even gives a bit to charitable causes.  But his position does no real social good nor particularly make the most of Bill's talents. 

 

All else being equal, could Joe be considered more righteous than Bill?

 

I am mindful of Mark 12:42-44

 

"And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

 

And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

 

For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Backroads.  Let me answer your question directly.

 

We are not obligated to pursue Wealth.  I am not going to comment on Influence because I think we have a different understanding of what that implies.

 

What we are obligated to do is Love God and Love Others as Ourselves.  That's it. 

 

Now, if you have this plan that pursuing wealth is how you can fulfill those 2 commandments, then you are righteous and fulfilling your obligation.  This is what my father has always told me... Money is simply an enabler that will allow me to build my perfect calendar... exchanging things that I don't want to do with things I would rather do.  So that, if what I want to do are righteous, then there's nothing holding me back from being righteous.  Wealth is NOTHING MORE than a RESOURCE. 

 

The fact remains that in today's society, money is the primary method of trade.  I am a very good programmer.  I am a terrible farmer.  But to provide for my family, I need food.  I don't bother with farming for my food.  Instead, I program so I can have money so I can trade for food.  EVERYTHING follows this principle.

 

There will not come a time when I'll have enough money.  You can give me 500 billion dollars and it will not be enough.  Why?  Because, I can come up with more than 500 billion dollars worth of stuff that I can trade for... Right now, if I had just 50K of that 500 billion, I can pay for my uncle's next round of chemo.  If I had 500K, I could pay for 10 people's chemo.  If I had 5Mil, I can pay for a country's worth of chemo - maybe.  If I had 5Bil, I can pay for a country's worth of research so there won't be a need for chemo...

 

And we're only talking about cancer here...

 

Can you imagine what I can do with VT if I had all the money in the world to pay somebody to go do what every RS person needs done that's why they can't do VT? 

 

Is that too broad?  How about this... can you imagine if I can hire 2 full-time maids and 1 driver so that instead of scrubbing floors and washing dishes and doing laundry and dusting blinds and ceiling fans, I can spend ALL that time teaching my 2 children?  And I don't have to tune the kids out when I'm fighting traffic?  And that's not even counting the bonus of the 2 maids and the driver getting money that they can use to trade for their own families.

 

And can you imagine if I had all the money in the world so that instead of explaining to my kids how unfortunate some people in the world are, I can actually fly them over there and have them do something with it like Angelina Jolie?

 

And here's one especially for The Folk Prophet.  Can you imagine how many 5-50K watches I can buy that would provide work for all those Filipinos on the Fairchild assembly line so that the manufacturing place won't shut down?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share