The Folk Prophet Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 ... that still runs IE7... Well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 What? You can't let Suzie off the hook! She started it! Waaaaa! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiritDragon Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 I was discussing the money spent on the watch with my wife and she said something that really hit home; although she doesn't think that spending $50k on a watch is practical, nor easily justified, the bigger problem here is telling people how much was spent on the watch. Why else would some one brag up the expense of a watch besides pride in the ability to acquire such an overpriced item? The Folk Prophet, Matthew.Bennett, applepansy and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted July 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 Wise woman, that wife of yours! SpiritDragon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiritDragon Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 Wise woman, that wife of yours! Yes, and unlike my watch, sometimes I feel like bragging about her Backroads and applepansy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 I was discussing the money spent on the watch with my wife and she said something that really hit home; although she doesn't think that spending $50k on a watch is practical, nor easily justified, the bigger problem here is telling people how much was spent on the watch. Why else would some one brag up the expense of a watch besides pride in the ability to acquire such an overpriced item? I betcha the guy wearing the watch was not the one who told people he has on a 50K watch... Some doodad saw the watch, looked it up on the internet, found out it was a 50K watch, and told everybody about it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 Sliding into the conversation fashionably late... 1) I have known a few people become wealthy on accident. Most people go broke employing the same methodology. 2) Deciding to become wealthy is something most new-money people do at some point; but English implies the inverse is true (even though reverse logic is faulty / doesn't work)... And it's not true in reverse. Poor people are not poor because they didn't decide to become wealthy. 3) Wealth is relative. Even in the states... 50k is upper middle class in some parts of the country, and below the poverty line / qualifies for food stamps in others. Meanwhile you take that 50k overseas and it translates to 5 million in some countries and 10k in others. Money is only valued by what you can buy with it. 50 million can be a lot. If it's not Vietnamese Dong (about 2k)i or Columbian Pesos (26k). 4) I don't understand why some people feel they have the right to direct how others spend their money. Whether your net worth is 200 million,or -40k in debt... It seems like there is a subsection of the population who feels they have the "right" to direct how other people manage their money. Heaven forbid your girlfriends buy you a manicure if you're broke, or your neighbor lends you his BMW to run errands out of the kindness of his heart if you're too poor to fix your car. And don't you dare buy anything that costs more that 1/1,000,000th of your savings if you're wealthy. Because if you do either, the vultures will descend upon you screaming judgement and how obscene and terrible you are for not doing things the way they want you to do them. Justify yourself to me! Let me decide if your reasons are "good enough". I shall sit in judgement over you. Pfui. The automatic assumption of incompetence -in either direction- is not only disrespectful, it's rude, unkind, and unchristian. Its not envy, it's pride. How about instead of deciding how wrong someone is for having more or less than we do, we try having some compassion for them, if not some actual respect & love thy neighbor-ness? Especially, since it's none of our business in the first place? mdfxdb and applepansy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew.Bennett Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 I'm surprised that, in 6 pages of discussion, these (and similar) scriptures doctrine haven't even been mentioned (except for Jacob 2:18-19):Jacob 2:28-19:18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted. D&C 49:19-21:19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.20 But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin.21 And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need. 2 Nephi 26:20:20 And the Gentiles are lifted up in the pride of their eyes, and have stumbled, because of the greatness of their stumbling block, that they have built up many churches; nevertheless, they put down the power and miracles of God, and preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor. D&C 70:14:14 Nevertheless, in your temporal things you shall be equal, and this not grudgingly, otherwise the abundance of the manifestations of the Spirit shall be withheld. When someone gets enough gain that they can flippantly talk about their $125k membership and buy and wear $50k watches, they're going against the principles listed above. If any Mormon gets any kind of "gain" and refuses to impart of their substance liberally to the poor and needy (according to the wants and needs of the poor--D&C 82:17, Mosiah 18:29), they are guilty of breaking those commandments. Consecration--which would have prepared the Saints to bring again Zion--failed because of, among other things, "jarrings, and contentions, and envyings, and strifes, and lustful and covetous desires among them" (D&C 101:6). Those "covetous desires" and "contentions" are encouraged by stratification into different socioeconomic statuses (poor, rich, etc.). The poor are strongly tempted to envy the finer things obtained by the rich--and the effect of that strong temptation is described as "grinding the faces" of the poor. The rich become lifted up and proud in their hearts. It is very rarely that a rich person will be able to enter the kingdom of heaven, because where a person's riches are, there will their treasure be also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
applepansy Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 Jacob 2:18-19. But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God. And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted. Yes, this one. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
applepansy Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 So another musing... Joe becomes a brain surgeon in order to provide for his family, heal the sick, earn money to give to others, influence others for the better, and to generally make good use of the talents given to him. Bill works in some vague job making a decent and sufficient if still modest income. He provides for his family, pays his tithing, and even gives a bit to charitable causes. But his position does no real social good nor particularly make the most of Bill's talents. All else being equal, could Joe be considered more righteous than Bill?1st.... not our decision.2nd... not necessarily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 I'm surprised that, in 6 pages of discussion, these (and similar) scriptures doctrine haven't even been mentioned (except for Jacob 2:18-19):Jacob 2:28-19:18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted. D&C 49:19-21:19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.20 But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin.21 And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need. 2 Nephi 26:20:20 And the Gentiles are lifted up in the pride of their eyes, and have stumbled, because of the greatness of their stumbling block, that they have built up many churches; nevertheless, they put down the power and miracles of God, and preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor. D&C 70:14:14 Nevertheless, in your temporal things you shall be equal, and this not grudgingly, otherwise the abundance of the manifestations of the Spirit shall be withheld. When someone gets enough gain that they can flippantly talk about their $125k membership and buy and wear $50k watches, they're going against the principles listed above. If any Mormon gets any kind of "gain" and refuses to impart of their substance liberally to the poor and needy (according to the wants and needs of the poor--D&C 82:17, Mosiah 18:29), they are guilty of breaking those commandments. Consecration--which would have prepared the Saints to bring again Zion--failed because of, among other things, "jarrings, and contentions, and envyings, and strifes, and lustful and covetous desires among them" (D&C 101:6). Those "covetous desires" and "contentions" are encouraged by stratification into different socioeconomic statuses (poor, rich, etc.). The poor are strongly tempted to envy the finer things obtained by the rich--and the effect of that strong temptation is described as "grinding the faces" of the poor. The rich become lifted up and proud in their hearts. It is very rarely that a rich person will be able to enter the kingdom of heaven, because where a person's riches are, there will their treasure be also.I have highlighted the part that I totally disagree with. Quite frankly it is offensive to anyone who has worked hard and become successful that it would be thought of them that they are going against the principles of the church. I would be willing to bet that a very large percentage of the Elders of the church are very wealth. They live in the best neighborhoods, drive expensive cars, and take vacations we can only dream about. This does not make them less righteous their wealth gives them the opportunity to serve all of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 Quite frankly it is offensive to anyone... You say this as if it's the only standard whereby we may judge right and wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 You say this as if it's the only standard whereby we may judge right and wrong.Would you as a member in good standing not be offended if by the sweat of your brow you were successful and able to provide in abundance for your family and were thought less of as a result of your success? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew.Bennett Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 I have highlighted the part that I totally disagree with. Quite frankly it is offensive to anyone who has worked hard and become successful that it would be thought of them that they are going against the principles of the church. I would be willing to bet that a very large percentage of the Elders of the church are very wealth. They live in the best neighborhoods, drive expensive cars, and take vacations we can only dream about. This does not make them less righteous their wealth gives them the opportunity to serve all of us.So, do you disagree with my assessment? Or do you disagree with the principles found in the scriptures? Regardless of which one you disagree with, use the scriptures to show your own assessment of the situation and prove how "liv[ing] in the best neighborhoods, driv[ing] expensive cars, and tak[ing] vacations we can only dream about" is in harmony with the scriptural admonitions about how we ought to live and serve one another. I'm all ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 Would you as a member in good standing not be offended if by the sweat of your brow you were successful and able to provide in abundance for your family and were thought less of as a result of your success? If I was offended it would be my sin and weakness to deal with. Offense is always based in pride. Pride is sinful. No, that doesn't justify judging others unrighteously. However, there are plenty of people who are offended by righteousness. That is my simple point. To be fair, I do not entirely disagree with you. I think we need to be very, very careful how we judge. I'm not 100% in line with Matthew.Bennet, though he makes some good points. As I have made clear, there is a distinct difference between viewing actions and judging them as inappropriate and viewing people and viewing them as sinners. Whereas we can make mistakes on both (being incapable of perfect understanding, as has been well pointed out by anatess and the like) if we are mistaken in judging actions, but have used that judgment for righteous ends then it is for our good. If we are mistaken in judging people then we are guilty, plain and simple. As I have also pointed out, I do not look down on someone for their spending choices. I give them the benefit of the doubt. I can certainly see how my comments may not have come across that way. I tend to flippancy sometimes. But I judge the purchase of a 50k watch as inappropriate, and therefor will not do so myself even if wealthy (understanding, of course, that my perspective could change). I do not, nor have I ever said, that the 70 named is a sinner, should be stripped of his position, needs to repent, or anything like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 So, do you disagree with my assessment? Or do you disagree with the principles found in the scriptures? Regardless of which one you disagree with, use the scriptures to show your own assessment of the situation and prove how "liv[ing] in the best neighborhoods, driv[ing] expensive cars, and tak[ing] vacations we can only dream about" is in harmony with the scriptural admonitions about how we ought to live and serve one another. I'm all ears. Easy. Living in the best neighborhoods, driving expensive cars, and taking vacations we can only dream about does not prevent anybody from living and serving one another. I can't post scriptural references because they don't exist. There is no admonition against success in scriptures. There is admonition against pride and worshipping idols and against failure to serve. None of which automatically apply to people who live in the best neighborhoods, drive expensive cars, and take vacations we can only dream about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 Yes, and unlike my watch, sometimes I feel like bragging about her I, unfortunately, do like to brag about my watch. But it's not because of the cost. I usually downplay that ashamedly. But it's a cool watch! Hmm.....prideful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdfxdb Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 So, do you disagree with my assessment? Or do you disagree with the principles found in the scriptures? Regardless of which one you disagree with, use the scriptures to show your own assessment of the situation and prove how "liv[ing] in the best neighborhoods, driv[ing] expensive cars, and tak[ing] vacations we can only dream about" is in harmony with the scriptural admonitions about how we ought to live and serve one another. I'm all ears.You can't prove a negative. However, the fact remains that the majority of our General Authorities live in the best neighborhoods, drive expensive cars, and have the ability/wherewithal to take any vacation they want. Are they "out" of harmony with scriptural admonitions about how we ought to live and serve one another? Simply because they are wealthy, and have sought after wealth? Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 I, unfortunately, do like to brag about my watch. But it's not because of the cost. I usually downplay that ashamedly. But it's a cool watch! Hmm.....prideful? Yes. Because, it's not a Dora the Explorer Limited Edition watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew.Bennett Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 Let's see if I follow your guys' argument, anatess and mdfxdb. This is what I believe you are saying: -There are no scriptures supporting the idea that temporal affluence (being "exceedingly rich" while others within your sphere of influence are "poor") is good in the eyes of God.-But there aren't any scriptures definitively against it.-Our leaders have temporal success and many of them are very affluent.-Our leaders are righteous, otherwise they wouldn't be our leaders. (I'm assuming this one; I feel that it's implicit in your statements. If I'm wrong, please correct me.)-Ergo, the type of success enjoyed by our leaders isn't against the scriptures. Would you say that's accurate? Or would you redefine or clarify anything? Just trying to understand. Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 Let's see if I follow your guys' argument, anatess and mdfxdb. This is what I believe you are saying: -There are no scriptures supporting the idea that temporal affluence (being "exceedingly rich" while others within your sphere of influence are "poor") is good in the eyes of God.-But there aren't any scriptures definitively against it.-Our leaders have temporal success and many of them are very affluent.-Our leaders are righteous, otherwise they wouldn't be our leaders. (I'm assuming this one; I feel that it's implicit in your statements. If I'm wrong, please correct me.)-Ergo, the type of success enjoyed by our leaders isn't against the scriptures. Would you say that's accurate? Or would you redefine or clarify anything? Just trying to understand. Not accurate for me. I cannot speak for leaders and their weaknesses. I don't know how their wealth contribute (or not contribute) to their righteousness. What I am saying is that - Affluence does not cause nor hinder Righteousness. They're not directly related. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 I think the argument is quite simple. The Lord has clearly and repeatedly said he would support the gaining of Wealth for those that will use it wisely.It is also clear that people can gain wealth for reasons that God does not approve of. The Lord is also very clearly had repeatedly talked about the Poor and how they can be blessed anyways.It is also clear that people can also be poor without being blessed. Thus the scriptures make it clear that we can not judge a persons faithfulness by the size of their bank account.Yet many people in this thread seem like that is exactly what they are doing. Like when someone says that because <That Guy> spent <X amount> on <Some item or Service> they must not be following the Lord. That is a judgment and given that we have very little knowledge on which to base that judgment, it is hard to make sure it is a righteous judgment. Backroads and Suzie 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 Let's see if I follow your guys' argument, anatess and mdfxdb. This is what I believe you are saying: -There are no scriptures supporting the idea that temporal affluence (being "exceedingly rich" while others within your sphere of influence are "poor") is good in the eyes of God.-But there aren't any scriptures definitively against it.-Our leaders have temporal success and many of them are very affluent.-Our leaders are righteous, otherwise they wouldn't be our leaders. (I'm assuming this one; I feel that it's implicit in your statements. If I'm wrong, please correct me.)-Ergo, the type of success enjoyed by our leaders isn't against the scriptures. Would you say that's accurate? Or would you redefine or clarify anything? Just trying to understand. There is one more (generally speaking), that because they are righteous, they are leaders and because they are righteous, God blessed them with a lot of material wealth. What about the poor righteous I don't know. lol Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 There is one more (generally speaking), that because they are righteous, they are leaders and because they are righteous, God blessed them with a lot of material wealth. What about the poor righteous I don't know. lol The poor righteous the Lord simply blesses in other ways. After all the promise is to the righteous that seek after wealth. Not all the righteous will seek that Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 The poor righteous the Lord simply blesses in other ways. After all the promise is to the righteous that seek after wealth. Not all the righteous will seek that Some do, and they still financially poor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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