Just one person on death row appeal?


Dr T
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An excerpt from Mahone’s post #21 from the Prison System Ideas thread: Even if just one innocent person was saved from death row as a result of the appeals process in its current form, do you think it's worth having it?

 

That is a tough question.  I would think life is sacred and would need consider that in my decision.  I would think it would be unjust to kill somebody but then if they took life/lives, it seems warranted.  Then I think of an "eye for an eye" and "turning the other cheek" verses.  Would it be worth it?  What does the bible say about the death penalty?  OT seems there is a lot of kill the sinners for multiple offenses and the New Testament seems to say things for example Paul also warned against taking revenge for a wrong done (Romans 12:17-21, 1 Thessalonians 5:15). Likewise, the apostle Peter warned us not to repay evil with evil (1 Peter 3:9).  “it is God’s to repay.”  I can’t find a strong verse for or against it which gives me a strong answer and I would need to do much more study on it.  Jesus also did not condemn the lady saying, “Let he that is without sin cast the fist stone.” Financially if it was one person saved, the "Yes it is worth it."  It is very complex.  Basically my answer right now is "I need study."  

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I'm against the death penalty simply because the Judge and Jury are not Bishops (key of discernment).  If they were and the death penalty was issued through Church Disciplinary Councils, I wouldn't have a problem with it even if they get the verdict wrong.

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I'm against the death penalty simply because the Judge and Jury are not Bishops (key of discernment).  If they were and the death penalty was issued through Church Disciplinary Councils, I wouldn't have a problem with it even if they get the verdict wrong.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this essentially saying "I'm okay with innocent people being executed so long as it is people with priesthood keys executing them?"

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this essentially saying "I'm okay with innocent people being executed so long as it is people with priesthood keys executing them?"

 

No.

 

This is essentially saying, I am not okay with even just one innocent person being wrongfully executed but if the execution was carried out under the righteous exercise of the keys of discernment of one with Priesthood Authority, then my faith in such Authority trumps my feelings about wrongful execution.

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Yep.  I've read that and many others like it.  They all deal with punishing criminals... not punishing those who were innocent who were thought of as criminals.

 

So how do you reconcile this with your position that you don't care if the verdict is wrong as long as church leaders make the call. Isn't getting the right person the important thing?

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So how do you reconcile this with your position that you don't care if the verdict is wrong as long as church leaders make the call. Isn't getting the right person the important thing?

 

See my post above yours.

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No.

 

This is essentially saying, I am not okay with even just one innocent person being wrongfully executed but if the execution was carried out under the righteous exercise of the keys of discernment of one with Priesthood Authority, then my faith in such Authority trumps my feelings about wrongful execution.

 

I'll take that as your answer

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I have decided that I am completely against the death penalty in all circumstances.  Here's why:

 

I read a news story about some horrific thing someone had done to a child.  It was grotesque and disturbing and the first thing that came out of my mind was, "I hope they fry the b*****d!"

 

It was a visceral, emotional, reaction promoted by vengeance.  I'm about as unemotional a person as the come, and if I can't keep my emotions in check in these matters, I don't trust that very many people can.  Vengeance is the wrong reason to kill, and I don't think we should be part of it.

 

Rant and rave against my logic as much as you like.  You're entitled to your opinions and I won't deny you that privilege.  But that's what it comes down to for me. 

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No.

 

This is essentially saying, I am not okay with even just one innocent person being wrongfully executed but if the execution was carried out under the righteous exercise of the keys of discernment of one with Priesthood Authority, then my faith in such Authority trumps my feelings about wrongful execution.

 

Wow.  may we never give such authority to our bishops.  The system is already flawed enough in the hands of 12 imbeciles.  I can't imagine how horrific the blood bath would be putting it in the hands of one imbecile.

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I have decided that I am completely against the death penalty in all circumstances.  Here's why:

 

I read a news story about some horrific thing someone had done to a child.  It was grotesque and disturbing and the first thing that came out of my mind was, "I hope they fry the b*****d!"

 

It was a visceral, emotional, reaction promoted by vengeance.  I'm about as unemotional a person as the come, and if I can't keep my emotions in check in these matters, I don't trust that very many people can.  Vengeance is the wrong reason to kill, and I don't think we should be part of it.

 

Rant and rave against my logic as much as you like.  You're entitled to your opinions and I won't deny you that privilege.  But that's what it comes down to for me. 

 

I actually think you make a really good point about how emotionally charged humans get, and it no doubt plays a huge role in what punishment is meted out. While I disagree with avoiding the death penalty all together, I see where you're coming from.

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Wow.  may we never give such authority to our bishops.  The system is already flawed enough in the hands of 12 imbeciles.  I can't imagine how horrific the blood bath would be putting it in the hands of one imbecile.

 

The Church's Disciplinary Council is not one imbecile.  And the verdict of 12 random imbeciles are not superior to the verdict of 12 imbecile Priests.

 

And I happen to have faith in the authority of righteous LDS Priests even though they're imbeciles.

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The Church's Disciplinary Council is not one imbecile.  

At the ward level, it's actually the Bishop who makes the decision and asks his counselors to sustain his decision.  If the counselors voice dissent, the bishop is fully authorized to make whatever decision he pleases anyway.  So, at the ward level, it's one imbecile with two other imbeciles advising.

 

At the stake level, it's the Stake President with two counselors and twelve high councilmen.  But even if all 14 unanimously dissent against the stake president's decision, the stake president's decision is valid.  So, it's really one imbecile being advised by 14 other imbeciles.

 

 

 

And the verdict of 12 random imbeciles are not superior to the verdict of 12 imbecile Priests.

Superiority isn't the issue.  They're both horrifically flawed systems for determining such high stakes.

 

 

 

 

And I happen to have faith in the authority of righteous LDS Priests even though they're imbeciles.

I've worked with too many priesthood leaders--and watched them see only what they wanted to see--to trust them with decisions about execution.

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I have decided that I am completely against the death penalty in all circumstances. Here's why:

I read a news story about some horrific thing someone had done to a child. It was grotesque and disturbing and the first thing that came out of my mind was, "I hope they fry the b*****d!"

It was a visceral, emotional, reaction promoted by vengeance. I'm about as unemotional a person as the come, and if I can't keep my emotions in check in these matters, I don't trust that very many people can. Vengeance is the wrong reason to kill, and I don't think we should be part of it.

Rant and rave against my logic as much as you like. You're entitled to your opinions and I won't deny you that privilege. But that's what it comes down to for me.

I'm largely undecided on the death penalty, but this speaks to me. I have a nasty, cruel, and malicious vigilante deep in my psyche and it would be bad if she ever got to deliver justice.

Emotions in our imperfect mortal state are far from the true omniscient justice God is over. We aren't capable of proper judgment . To such a degree.

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Speaking personally--I would be much more likely to impose a death sentence in company with twelve others (jury), than independently (bishop/stake presidency). I don't know whether that's due to the fact that others reaching the same verdict would make me more confident in my own judgment, or whether it would just be easier for me to weasel out of accountability for a tough choice by claiming it was really a group decision--but there you have it.

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I've worked with too many priesthood leaders--and watched them see only what they wanted to see--to trust them with decisions about execution.

 

 

Speaking personally--I would be much more likely to impose a death sentence in company with twelve others (jury), than independently (bishop/stake presidency). I don't know whether that's due to the fact that others reaching the same verdict would make me more confident in my own judgment, or whether it would just be easier for me to weasel out of accountability for a tough choice by claiming it was really a group decision--but there you have it.

 

 

C'mon guys... if breaking a sealing has to be approved by the President of the Church, how much more for the death penalty???

 

I have seen many many court hearings and looking at the jury in the jury box, I shudder to think the decision over my life or death being an innocent victim of justice is in their hands... at least with the Church, I can appeal to my faith in God's established Priesthood keys.

 

And... just to give my position some cultural background... The Philippines is the only Asian nation that has abolished the death penalty...

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