Lesson 15 (Eternal Marriage) questions

[mordorbund]

But did Moses himself enter into Celestial marriage?  I think so.  He is given twice as an example in section 132.  So although it was not available in general, it was there in the dispensation.

 

And Moses is probably mentioned in D&C 132 because he married other women besides Zipporah.

[MrShorty]

I think the idea or procreation is inherent in Elder Bednar's comments. But I also think that there is more to marriage (at least in this life) than just procreation. A whole lot more.  How that fits into the eternities, however, is something that I don't think we can really understand.

 

Ever since he gave this talk, this is one of the questions I have had about it -- does it apply, as you suggest, only to "sex with the intent to have children" or not? Do you, then, think that we see two "levels" of sex in marriage -- A "higher" level when a couple is trying to have children and a "lesser" level for "strengthening bonds of love"? What does this suggest about our attitudes towards birth control? Sex for post-menopausal couples? What does this mean for infertile couples who cannot have their own biological children?

 

garryw may feel this is drifting away from his OP, but I think there might be something behind this that suggests why marriage and child-rearing is important to God's plans and purposes for us -- though I don't think I understand them myself.

[susancunningham]

First of all the scriptures are not God's manual, but mans writings of his dealings with God.  So, if man hasn't asked the questions then the answers are not there.  Notice the pattern in the Doctrine and Covenants.  For most of history, I think the necessity of marriage was so obvious, that no one questioned it but now that is not the case.  Therefore, we may get more insight to this question as time goes on.  That being said, the bible does command us to marry - as this scripture shows: 

 

 

Genesis 2:24

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

and gives us reasons why we should, as this scripture does:

  1 Corinthians 7:14

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

 

Jeremiah 29:6

6 Take ye wives, and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons, and give your daughters to husbands, that they may bear sons and daughters; that ye may be increased there, and not diminished.

[garryw]

*shrug*  Sure. Okay.

 

I guess I wonder then, what's the point in understanding this? What's the gospel principle we find or...I dunno...what's the value in this?

 

Think of the entire city of Enoch being taken up into heaven.  Did they accomplish that success without the marriage covenant?  Or did they have to practice eternal marriage to get there?  If so then why? 

 

To answer that question, one has to determine first if the people of Enoch had access to the marriage covenant. 

 

Determining if Moses had it wont really lead to anything I can think of, but it would establish a consistant method of revelation.

[garryw]

 Do you, then, think that we see two "levels" of sex in marriage

 

I dont think levels is the right word.  It's more like funcitons. 

[The Folk Prophet]

Ever since he gave this talk, this is one of the questions I have had about it -- does it apply, as you suggest, only to "sex with the intent to have children" or not? Do you, then, think that we see two "levels" of sex in marriage -- A "higher" level when a couple is trying to have children and a "lesser" level for "strengthening bonds of love"? What does this suggest about our attitudes towards birth control? Sex for post-menopausal couples? What does this mean for infertile couples who cannot have their own biological children?

 

garryw may feel this is drifting away from his OP, but I think there might be something behind this that suggests why marriage and child-rearing is important to God's plans and purposes for us -- though I don't think I understand them myself.

 

I don't think Elder Bednar's comments play into this stuff. I think it' simply that if you're going to talk about sex in relationship to divine nature and potential that procreation is implicit. That's not to say there's no other reason or validity to sex. But a lot of those reasons are related to the fact that we are imperfect, mortal beings who benefit from things that an exalted being likely wouldn't benefit from. For example, the sexual drive assists in keeping couples working out their problems. It helps to comfort each other in trials. Etc. These things would be non-issues for perfect beings. No problems, no trials, etc.

 

I won't go so far as to discuss the idea of pleasure in sex as it might relate to exalted beings because I think that's going into the realm of absolute conjecture, and runs the risk of being quite profane. But I do tend towards the pleasure side of it being less viable as an eternal thing as well. Kind of like most mortal pleasures in life. I don't see us eating for pleasure, camping for pleasure, reading, water or snow skiing, playing sports, etc., etc. as perfect exalted beings.

 

The pleasures of this life can be both a boon and a temptation to us. If used wisely, they are a gift. That doesn't translate to eternal importance, necessarily.

 

Just my thoughts though.

[The Folk Prophet]

I dont think levels is the right word.  It's more like funcitons. 

 

Right. And I see one of the functions as mortal -- the other as eternal. That's my take.

[MrShorty]

I don't think Elder Bednar's comments play into this stuff. I think it' simply that if you're going to talk about sex in relationship to divine nature and potential that procreation is implicit. That's not to say there's no other reason or validity to sex. But a lot of those reasons are related to the fact that we are imperfect, mortal beings who benefit from things that an exalted being likely wouldn't benefit from. For example, the sexual drive assists in keeping couples working out their problems. It helps to comfort each other in trials. Etc. These things would be non-issues for perfect beings. No problems, no trials, etc.

 

I won't go so far as to discuss the idea of pleasure in sex as it might relate to exalted beings because I think that's going into the realm of absolute conjecture, and runs the risk of being quite profane. But I do tend towards the pleasure side of it being less viable as an eternal thing as well. Kind of like most mortal pleasures in life. I don't see us eating for pleasure, camping for pleasure, reading, water or snow skiing, playing sports, etc., etc. as perfect exalted beings.

 

The pleasures of this life can be both a boon and a temptation to us. If used wisely, they are a gift. That doesn't translate to eternal importance, necessarily.

 

Just my thoughts though.

Some points to ponder in here....

 

When we have talked about some of the messy "what happens when..." questions about who will be sealed to whom, it seems that our answer is something like "God will figure it out. The important part from our vantage point is that everyone gets a part of the sealing ordinances and covenants." With these ordinances in place (and resolved by God when things are messy), I have seen it said that this will create some kind of "family of Adam" web that we will all fit into. Marriage is the part of this web that binds husband and wife together. "Procreation" is the part that binds parent to child and child to parent. Is it as simple as that -- marriage and procreation are how this "family of Adam" is built and structured in the eternities?

[garryw]

 Is it as simple as that -- marriage and procreation are how this "family of Adam" is built and structured in the eternities?

 

That is a pretty simple fact.  But, we also know that people do have families and children here without marriage.  For exmaple, I knew some people in South America that lived together and had kids but skipped marriage simply because they couldn't afford the $60 license.  Not to mention some kind of social event. 

 

In that case some people (not me) donated the $60 to them and they got married (and baptised).  But on a practical level, the marriage itself did not change their lives at all.

[spamlds]

On question #4, pioneer Mosiah Hancock recorded a dream in which he saw the pre-mortal life.  I'm not saying this is doctrine, because he wasn't in a position to declare doctrine for the Church--but it's interesting what he says he saw.  He said that, when the scripture says, "male and female created he them," Hancock says he saw that our spiritual creation was as male-female pairs.  He saw people going to classes and learning and that the male-female companionships were together always.  

 

I think the Church doesn't teach this because it would lead people to hold out to find their "soul-mates," which they have advised against.  I can see the wisdom in that.  We should trust the Lord to lead us to our mates and seek them out using our feelings and the Holy Ghost to be our guide.

 

Another interesting thing Hancock saw was that, the rebellious 1/3 who were cast out after the war in heaven were exclusively males.  When it says that "the heavens wept" after the war in heaven, there were probably a lot of broken hearts as the pairs were broken up.  It also might explain the need for plural marriage at certain times in certain dispensations to provide sealing opportunities for females who lost their partners to rebellion in the premortal life.

 

I'm not saying that any of this is doctrine.  But it does provide some interesting insights into question #4 on the list.  If you want to read the document, check the link below.  Search on the term "male and female" and it will take you to the relevant section.

 

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/MHancock.html

[The Folk Prophet]

Another interesting thing Hancock saw was that, the rebellious 1/3 who were cast out after the war in heaven were exclusively males.

 

I call bologna on this.

[Suzie]

SpamLDS:

 

Another interesting thing Hancock saw was that, the rebellious 1/3 who were cast out after the war in heaven were exclusively males.

 

Oh wow, so women were more "spiritual" than men even in the pre-existence?

 

 I don't wanna die young so let me clarify and say I am being 100% sarcastic.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I'm teaching EQ lesson 15 this sunday and I've come up with a list of questions on the topic.  I don't intend to actually use these questions during the lesson because I prefer to stick to the basics for better or worse.  However I'd thought these would be interesting if they pop up.

 

 

 

 

4.  Besides the blessing of procreation, why is marriage required for exaltation?  Or is procreation the key to exaltation?

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks in advance.

I would like to try to answer this question a little different than what has already been said about it but not in opposition to those posts, just in addition.

 

I would keep in mind the idea that one can be adopted into Abraham's lineage and receive the same blessings as one born directly.  It is the nature of the covenent that exists in the family unit that allows for the eternal blessings not just who is the "biological" father or mother.  "Seed" also refers to the way in which the blessings came about, how was it passed on and received. Sharing the gospel with someone might be a way to plant the seed.  How great shall be your joy if you bring but one soul unto Him.  That is the source of the joy, the achievements of others.  If we are linked to others in such a way that we can "experience" their joy and happiness with each of their successes then our joy will be eternal.

 

Why is it that I am more happy when my own child gets an A in school as opposed to another child?  My connection with my child is different than my connection with another child.  This is what eternal marriage supplies, a connection, by way of covenant that is different than any other type of connection.  Any other type of connection is not good enough to allow for sharing of joy.  Just like the stars are separate, one from another, the happiness is lessened when it is singular but together it is magnified and multiplied when we are one with each other and all that I do is shared with others and their achievements.  I think this also gives new meaning to the purpose of fast and testimony meeting.  A shared testimony is such a spiritual event that brings joy for this reason.  It is that kind of joy we would want to have continue forever in the next life. It cannot occur if we see ourselves as individuals.  The Kingdoms of Heaven are divided in that way, graded down from being as one to being separate.  That seems to correlate with joy.

[garryw]

On question #4, pioneer Mosiah Hancock recorded a dream

 

That was a fun read.  I didn't see anything about the 1/3 being male in there.