Foreordination


Zaq33
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On earth it's considered inappropriate to volunteer for a priesthood calling, generally speaking.  On the other hand it is appropriate to apply for a full time mission calling.

 

So I think in the pre-existence some things we were foreordained to do by "divine" calling, and some we "signed up" for. 

 

Think of your own kids.  Some activities they initiate and some thier parents put them into.

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I think we look at predestination and fore-ordination backwards.   To me predestination implies we have noting to do with the assignment or obligation.  Fore-ordination implies to me that we have a say in accepting and determining our assignments and obligations.  I do not think the question of what is known by G-d that must occur changes the fact that we through our agency took upon ours selves to fulfill this life.  In fact - I believe we all knew as well as G-d knew what would occur.  And if knowing in advance casts something in stone then in stone it is.  But I believe we knew what would be cast in stone before we accepted our mortal life.

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 we all knew as well as G-d knew what would occur

 

Being omniscient, God knew that Hitler would be (jointly with others) responsible for mass genocide and world war.  So did Hitler know that?  More likely he knew he would arrive during the last dispensation and have plenty of opportunities to choose good or evil.  I don't think he knew he would choose evil.

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So to the point, I have schizophrenia. And i feel a little exposed sharing this but i need as much help as i can get. What if i found out that i was foreordained to be a prophet, and found that I volunteered to be one, and that i knew i wasnt worthy and did it anyway, and because of this i believe im damned to sons of perdition or a kingdom lower than celestial.

Are we damned for not fulfilling our premortal calling?

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I believe that many of us probably fall short of what we could or should be. That's why I'm so grateful for the Atonement and our Savior. Repentance is truly a blessing. If we don't fulfill our pre mortal calling, we can be forgiven. But, always remember there are consequences to our choices. We may miss out on some of the blessings we would have received, but we can still be forgiven.

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I think we look at predestination and fore-ordination backwards.   To me predestination implies we have noting to do with the assignment or obligation.  Fore-ordination implies to me that we have a say in accepting and determining our assignments and obligations.  I do not think the question of what is known by G-d that must occur changes the fact that we through our agency took upon ours selves to fulfill this life.  In fact - I believe we all knew as well as G-d knew what would occur.  And if knowing in advance casts something in stone then in stone it is.  But I believe we knew what would be cast in stone before we accepted our mortal life.

Why does it have to be that we knew what would occur?  Why can it not be like wanting to go on a mission - "I will go wherever I am sent" kind of thing?  I accept the call wherever it may be and whatever it may be.  We accept it in faith that it will be the right thing and then we are told what it is and still accept it.

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Why does it have to be that we knew what would occur?  Why can it not be like wanting to go on a mission - "I will go wherever I am sent" kind of thing?  I accept the call wherever it may be and whatever it may be.  We accept it in faith that it will be the right thing and then we are told what it is and still accept it.

 

It is part of my understanding of G-d being a G-d of truth and light.  I understand that you and I are on very different wavelengths of understanding.  This life to me is a great opportunity to learn knowledge that cannot be obtained by any other way.  Being in a state of darkness (including the veil of forgetfulness) we are able to learn by experience that faith is necessary in order to move from darkness into the light of truth.  I understand that you do not believe such experience is beneficial.   It is my believe that if there was a more complete (whole and holy) way - we would have been given that as an opportunity and choice. 

 

In contrast I believe that it was the plan of Lucifer to provide assignments without choice.  In short Lucifer wanted to run everything by predestination and the Father and Jesus (the Son) thought we should be foreordained and given final say or choice.  I actually think the arguments for accepting our destiny on faith is a very strong and easily argued stand.  I have decided that I will champion the idea that G-d intended we make a choice (agency) made in the light of truth.

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It is part of my understanding of G-d being a G-d of truth and light.  I understand that you and I are on very different wavelengths of understanding.  This life to me is a great opportunity to learn knowledge that cannot be obtained by any other way.  Being in a state of darkness (including the veil of forgetfulness) we are able to learn by experience that faith is necessary in order to move from darkness into the light of truth.  I understand that you do not believe such experience is beneficial.   It is my believe that if there was a more complete (whole and holy) way - we would have been given that as an opportunity and choice. 

 

In contrast I believe that it was the plan of Lucifer to provide assignments without choice.  In short Lucifer wanted to run everything by predestination and the Father and Jesus (the Son) thought we should be foreordained and given final say or choice.  I actually think the arguments for accepting our destiny on faith is a very strong and easily argued stand.  I have decided that I will champion the idea that G-d intended we make a choice (agency) made in the light of truth.

For you, that may very well be your assignment in this life and for you that is the your great opportunity.  How can I argue with that.  God will tell you, if you are in tune, to whatever task He would have you do through the spirit of the Holy Ghost.  But that does not make it a universal task or a necessary task during mortality for everyone's salvation.  Otherwise, infants would have died failing that task.  And we know that is not true.

 

I never said it wasn't beneficial, that is your misconception of what I have said.  I have only said that it is not necessary in every case.  For example, those that die before the age of 8 need no such lesson, they have already proven and shown they understand such lessons that "faith is necessary in order to move from darkness into the light of truth".  They already have that down.   For you and I, yes we need to learn that lesson by experience but the experience may come in different ways, like the gift fo the spirit for some is to have faith in others.  8 million deaths under the age of 5 per year says not everyone needs that lesson while in mortality. 

 

I have never read anywhere that Lucifer's plan was to assign anything.  He wanted to give and provide without assignments. He wanted to give without taking any risk for failure but he didn't realize that you can't win without risk for losing.

 

Desire is stronger than knowledge.  God will judge us based on the desires of our heart and very little of the final judgement will be based in how much knowledge we actually acquired unless that was part of our specific assignment in this world.  If someone is born into captivity and/or has very little capability to learn by circumstance or disability; the desire to learn will carry them through in the next life because whatever spirit (desires of the heart) is held at death will continue and when they are introduced to the gospel in the spirit world, they will recognize it and accept it. 

 

To some the "light of truth" is based in the testimony of others.  D&C 46; " 14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful."

 

God intended that we first have faith, second repentence, third baptism for the remission of sins and fourth receive the Holy Ghost.  Those are the first steps to follow while in this life.  In the pre-existence, there were different circumstances.  There everyone was in the "light of truth".  That was called the first estate.  I am glad you want to be a champion for the first estate because we rarely talk about it.  But remember we all passed that test.  Now we face a different test with different circumstances already having satisfied your zelous ideal that we make a choice in the light of truth.  That was done, lets move on.

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Are we damned for not fulfilling our premortal calling?

 

Yes, we area all hopelessly damned according to the law of God.  The BoM says we are all unprofitable servants.  This goes for prophets too.  Nobody can earn salvation or exaltation.  That's the whole reason the 1st principal of the gospel is faith in Christ.  The second repentance.  There is no principal called saving yourself through being a holy prophet.

 

Also, you are not qualified to be a son of perdition anyway.  Those are people in open rebellion against Christ after really knowing him.

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For you, that may very well be your assignment in this life and for you that is the your great opportunity.  How can I argue with that.  God will tell you, if you are in tune, to whatever task He would have you do through the spirit of the Holy Ghost.  But that does not make it a universal task or a necessary task during mortality for everyone's salvation.  Otherwise, infants would have died failing that task.  And we know that is not true.

 

I never said it wasn't beneficial, that is your misconception of what I have said.  I have only said that it is not necessary in every case.  For example, those that die before the age of 8 need no such lesson, they have already proven and shown they understand such lessons that "faith is necessary in order to move from darkness into the light of truth".  They already have that down.   For you and I, yes we need to learn that lesson by experience but the experience may come in different ways, like the gift fo the spirit for some is to have faith in others.  8 million deaths under the age of 5 per year says not everyone needs that lesson while in mortality. 

 

I have never read anywhere that Lucifer's plan was to assign anything.  He wanted to give and provide without assignments. He wanted to give without taking any risk for failure but he didn't realize that you can't win without risk for losing.

 

Desire is stronger than knowledge.  God will judge us based on the desires of our heart and very little of the final judgement will be based in how much knowledge we actually acquired unless that was part of our specific assignment in this world.  If someone is born into captivity and/or has very little capability to learn by circumstance or disability; the desire to learn will carry them through in the next life because whatever spirit (desires of the heart) is held at death will continue and when they are introduced to the gospel in the spirit world, they will recognize it and accept it. 

 

To some the "light of truth" is based in the testimony of others.  D&C 46; " 14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful."

 

God intended that we first have faith, second repentence, third baptism for the remission of sins and fourth receive the Holy Ghost.  Those are the first steps to follow while in this life.  In the pre-existence, there were different circumstances.  There everyone was in the "light of truth".  That was called the first estate.  I am glad you want to be a champion for the first estate because we rarely talk about it.  But remember we all passed that test.  Now we face a different test with different circumstances already having satisfied your zelous ideal that we make a choice in the light of truth.  That was done, lets move on.

 

It appears to me that you assume all purpose of the fall and having a fallen experience ends with our physical death - do you not believe in an time and a place between death and the final judgement (resurrection)?  Are you saying that the time between death and resurrection is not necessary or in any way beneficial?  Why have you not considered this possibility?

 

I would also point out that your quote concerning light and truth is directly relevant to our mortal existence only and not to any choice or any light and truth we received in the presents of G-d as we chose to come to earth, learn of things physical and experience death which is caused from our complicity and exposure to evil.  All that die prove in their death that they were not shielded from evil.

 

BTW - I still believe it was Lucifer's plan to keep us in the dark.  I believe it is G-d's plan to make all things known.  Do you agree or disagree?

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It appears to me that you assume all purpose of the fall and having a fallen experience ends with our physical death - do you not believe in an time and a place between death and the final judgement (resurrection)?  Are you saying that the time between death and resurrection is not necessary or in any way beneficial?  Why have you not considered this possibility?

 

I would also point out that your quote concerning light and truth is directly relevant to our mortal existence only and not to any choice or any light and truth we received in the presents of G-d as we chose to come to earth, learn of things physical and experience death which is caused from our complicity and exposure to evil.  All that die prove in their death that they were not shielded from evil.

 

BTW - I still believe it was Lucifer's plan to keep us in the dark.  I believe it is G-d's plan to make all things known.  Do you agree or disagree?

No, again, you take this all or nothing approach that is difficult to understand.  To some it is beneficial but to most it is a test.  Just like some people actually learn something during a final exam whereas one hopes to have learned all they could before going into the final exam.  Rifinement occurs, experience occurs, being able to appreciate occurs, placing the knowledge we have in a certain context, the context of good and evil occurs.

 

We are to forsake the things of this world, the physical body is one of them.  Christ forsake the physical body, he died for good.  The body is not us.  The spirit lives on and does not die.  There is nothing lost in our physical death as we will be one day resurrected in a body that never dies.  Mortality is a forward path, not an evil one or a backward one.  Death is part of mortality and therefore the physical death is not evil or harmful in any way. It is a necessary step to go onto obtaining a perfect body.

 

It is Lucifer's plan to make everyone as miserable as he is now.  But when taking about Lucifer's plan you have to designate before or after the casting out.  Before the war in Heaven he just wanted to take what he thought was his inheritance without having to go through the second estate test.  During that war he rebelled. Did he pull those that followed him in "light" or in "darkness"?   In other words, did a third of the host of heaven leave the plan because they were tricked or because they rebelled in light?

 

The first estate test was in "light" the second estate test occurs according to the flesh = "darkness".  Otherwise you are going to have to say that a third of the host of heaven were cast out because they were kept in darkness, they were decieved and tricked and fooled.  Consider the idea that in order for one to become a son of perdition they have to be "in the light."  In other words, to be cast out, one has to have witness of the Holy Ghost.   That does not sound like being in the darkness to me.  Whereas in this life we are judged and put into a Kingdom of Glory even when we sin even when we are in darkness.  How is it that sinners can receive a degree of glory?  Because they already passed the test while being in the light, the first estate test. The judgement of this life is according to the flesh which is a very important statement making it different than tests that are not done according to the flesh. 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Read Alma 13. Pay attention to the word "preparatory redemption". Ask how they were foreordained. How did they receive a preparatory redemption? How can you be redeemed? What does it mean to be redeemed? How did they show exceedingly great faith?

 

As to the other question, YOU VOLUNTEER. ALWAYS. Agency demands it. Its always your choice. But God will not choose those who are not proven in all things.

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Read Alma 13. Pay attention to the word "preparatory redemption". Ask how they were foreordained. How did they receive a preparatory redemption? How can you be redeemed? What does it mean to be redeemed? How did they show exceedingly great faith?

 

As to the other question, YOU VOLUNTEER. ALWAYS. Agency demands it. Its always your choice. But God will not choose those who are not proven in all things.

"Preparatory redemption" refers to the type of work they were called to as in the second verse of that chapter; " And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son, in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption."

 

Bruce R. McConkie said about this preparatory redemption; "'They could preach redemption; they could foretell its coming; but their work was preparatory only.  Redemption itself would come through the ministry of Him of whom they were but types and shadows."   Like John the Baptist, the work one is forordained to do within the priesthood is preparatory for the redemption Christ brings.

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"Preparatory redemption" refers to the type of work they were called to as in the second verse of that chapter; " 2 And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son, in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption."

 

Bruce R. McConkie said about this preparatory redemption; "'They could preach redemption; they could foretell its coming; but their work was preparatory only.  Redemption itself would come through the ministry of Him of whom they were but types and shadows."   Like John the Baptist, the work one is forordained to do within the priesthood is preparatory for the redemption Christ brings.

I disagree. That is not what Alma 13 says. "prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works".

 

I believe those Gods that God reveals as Gods to be sons of God, and all can cry, "Abba, Father!" Sons of God who exalt themselves to be Gods, even from before the foundation of the world, and are the only Gods I have a reverence for. (1)(Found in TPJS, and the places below)

  1.  Bullock report of Sermon in the Grove, 16 June 1844. Available in Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook, The Words of Joseph Smith: The Contemporary Accounts of the Nauvoo Discourses of Joseph Smith, 2nd Edition, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1996), 378–381.

 

  1.  
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I disagree. That is not what Alma 13 says. "prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works".

 

  1.  

 

This is the summary for Alma 13; "Men are called as high priests because of their exceeding faith and good works—They are to teach the commandments—Through righteousness they are sanctified and enter into the rest of the Lord—Melchizedek was one of these—Angels are declaring glad tidings throughout the land—They will declare the actual coming of Christ. About 82 B.C."

 

The chapter is about men receiving the priesthood so that they can carry out their callings received before the foundations of the world.  It is about them being involved in the preparatory redemptive work otherwise called by Paul as the "ministry of reconciliation".  Reconciliation being another word for redemption.  2 Corinthians 5; "17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;"

 

I am not sure why you are throwing in a quote from Joseph Smith about the plurality of Gods, that our Father in Heaven had a Father etc, to support a statement about the preparatory priesthood and preparatory work towards redemption from Christ.  I am not following the link.  Just because they both use the words of before the foundation of the world doesn't mean they are linked somehow.  There were many things that happened before the foundation of the world.   Joseph Smith is stating that there were many Gods before the foundation of the world. Alma 13 is talking about the preparatory redemption work which is what the church does and those called to the work in this life, many of which were called before the foundations of this world.  Where is the connection between the two?  I am not following.

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...

 

We are to forsake the things of this world, the physical body is one of them.  Christ forsake the physical body, ..

 

Are you sure this is sound doctrine?  I believe that Christ embraced his physical body especially in the resurrection.  Now you may say that a resurrected body is not of this world - I can kind of see where you are trying to go there but - Christ - including his physical body was never of this world????  - I think.

 

I do not believe that we are to forsake our physical bodies but rather take sacred care of it as the temple of G-d?  Is the holy temple something of this world that we must forsake?

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Are you sure this is sound doctrine?  I believe that Christ embraced his physical body especially in the resurrection.  Now you may say that a resurrected body is not of this world - I can kind of see where you are trying to go there but - Christ - including his physical body was never of this world????  - I think.

 

I do not believe that we are to forsake our physical bodies but rather take sacred care of it as the temple of G-d?  Is the holy temple something of this world that we must forsake?

We treat it as a temple so that we might make it a perfect sacrifice, give it up. 

 

Maybe we need to go back to animal sacrifice to relearn this issue. 

 

We keep our bodies spotless and like a temple so that we make, like Christ, give up everything in this world, including our physical ability and physical self.   There is no greater love than one who is willing to die (give up the physical body) for her friend.  Yes, this is sound doctrine. 

 

In order to keep the body pure requires forsaking its natural drives.  A pure body is not a natural body.  An umblemished body is not natural - we all get scars and broken bones and blemishes of some kind by living life - both mental and physical blemishes.  So, a pure and clean body is not natural to this world.  We forsake the natural course of the body to keep it pure. ... we forsake the body.  Christ' final act was that, giving up his body.   We take upon His body, His flesh and blood with the Sacrament as a reminder of our willingness to forsake the body as well.  We don't want our body, we want His body, thus we eat of His flesh and blood, to take it upon ourselves symbolically, as opposed to our own body.

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We treat it as a temple so that we might make it a perfect sacrifice, give it up. 

 

Maybe we need to go back to animal sacrifice to relearn this issue. 

 

We keep our bodies spotless and like a temple so that we make, like Christ, give up everything in this world, including our physical ability and physical self.   There is no greater love than one who is willing to die (give up the physical body) for her friend.  Yes, this is sound doctrine. 

 

In order to keep the body pure requires forsaking its natural drives.  A pure body is not a natural body.  An umblemished body is not natural - we all get scars and broken bones and blemishes of some kind by living life - both mental and physical blemishes.  So, a pure and clean body is not natural to this world.  We forsake the natural course of the body to keep it pure. ... we forsake the body.  Christ' final act was that, giving up his body.   We take upon His body, His flesh and blood with the Sacrament as a reminder of our willingness to forsake the body as well.  We don't want our body, we want His body, thus we eat of His flesh and blood, to take it upon ourselves symbolically, as opposed to our own body.

 

There is more than one death - a spiritual death and a physical death.  I would point out that whatever evil corrupts the physical also corrupts the spiritual and vise versa.  In fact I would go so far as to say if the spirit is not corrupted - neither is the physical.  I would ask - what carnal awareness does a natural body have that a pure body does not?  And what senses does a pure body have that a natural body does not.  I believe that there is no sense or carnal awareness that any man is aware of that is not also something that G-d is also aware.  Again the point is that spiritually is not unaware of physical inputs but that all physical inputs are known and mastered - not master of or addicted to - but in total control.  Therefore the difference in a spiritual man verses the natural man - is the spiritual is the master of the physical and the natural man enslaved by the exact same physicality to which the spiritual man is master.  It is not that the spiritual man has no physical impulses only that through discipline they are the master.  BTW the word disciple has the same root as the word discipline.  The ideas are tightly linked.  This is why all covenants and commands are both physical and spiritual - for one cannot be mastered without the other and until both are mastered both are damned.

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There is more than one death - a spiritual death and a physical death.  I would point out that whatever evil corrupts the physical also corrupts the spiritual and vise versa.  In fact I would go so far as to say if the spirit is not corrupted - neither is the physical.  I would ask - what carnal awareness does a natural body have that a pure body does not?  And what senses does a pure body have that a natural body does not.  I believe that there is no sense or carnal awareness that any man is aware of that is not also something that G-d is also aware.  Again the point is that spiritually is not unaware of physical inputs but that all physical inputs are known and mastered - not master of or addicted to - but in total control.  Therefore the difference in a spiritual man verses the natural man - is the spiritual is the master of the physical and the natural man enslaved by the exact same physicality to which the spiritual man is master.  It is not that the spiritual man has no physical impulses only that through discipline they are the master.  BTW the word disciple has the same root as the word discipline.  The ideas are tightly linked.  This is why all covenants and commands are both physical and spiritual - for one cannot be mastered without the other and until both are mastered both are damned.

I never used the word awareness.  That is your word.  I don't disagree with that. 

 

One can be in the world but not of the world.  One can be aware of the world but not make it her own.

 

The trap of carnal passions is that they are never satisfied.  For example, the love of fame, money beauty etc is never satisfied, one will always want more and will become an increasingly heavy burden to constantly satisfy those passions. More and more effort is given to the pursuit of those things when they are given into.  Controlling them is to limit them in the first place. 

 

Jesus counselled this way; "31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

 32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

 34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

 

No man can serve two masters.  I think you are trying to say that that is possible.  The scriptures tell us otherwise as well as Jesus making that distinction.

 

 

Elder Bednar's talk from conference; "The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test. Every appetite, desire, propensity, and impulse of the natural man may be overcome by and through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We are here on the earth to develop godlike qualities and to bridle all of the passions of the flesh."

 

I don't think I can say it any more clear.  This is an either or thing, not both.  Look at the words "every" and "all".  Every and all appetites of the body may be overcome.

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