Is Mankind Inherently Good or Evil?


srmaher
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Authors note: For clarification, the use of the word evil in this post refers to the inclination of mankind to be selfish, greedy, ungreatful and entitled to what others have.  I chose the word evil, because its one of the words used in the BOM to describe our nature.  

The question of whether or not mankind is inherently good or evil has been debated for centuries. Fortunately for Latter-day Saints, the Book of Mormon provides the answer that yes, mankind is inherently evil. The Book of Mormons prophets describe mankind as lost, fallen, carnal, devilish, sensual, and evil. That doesn’t sound too “good” to me. From First Nephi, all the way through Moroni, the Book of Mormon is saturated with examples of “mankind’s” utter failure to be good, not to mention Heavenly Father having to step in to humble his people so they will repent and obey.

I am sure many are thinking, “How can you believe that we are inherently evil after holding a baby in your arms?” First of all, we are born innocent, not evil. It is our natures that make us evil. Anyone who has kids understands that it takes a tremendous amount of effort to teach them to share, be kind, be honest, treat others with kindness, to sacrifice, to serve others, to delay gratification, and the list goes on. Despite parents’ best efforts, this battle over the “flesh” is never ending; it will be with us for the rest of our lives.

Below I have proved a list of scriptures from the BOM that show we are by nature, evil.

Ether 3: 2 O Lord, thou hast said that we must be encompassed about by the floods. Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires.

1 Nephi 10: 6 Wherefore, all mankind were in a lost and in a fallen state, and ever would be save they should rely on this Redeemer.

Mosiah 3: 19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

Mosiah 4: 2 And they had viewed themselves in their own carnal state, even less than the dust of the earth. And they all cried aloud with one voice, saying: O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be purified; for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who created heaven and earth, and all things; who shall come down among the children of men.

Mosiah 16: 3 For they are carnal and devilish, and the devil has power over them; yea, even that old serpent that did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall; which was the cause of all mankind becoming carnal, sensual, devilish, knowing evil from good, subjecting themselves to the devil.

Mosiah 16: 4 Thus all mankind were lost; and behold, they would have been endlessly lost were it not that God redeemed his people from their lost and fallen state.

Mosiah 27: 25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters.

Alma 34: 9 For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; yea, all are hardened; yea, all are fallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made.

Alma 42: 10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.

Those who believe in the goodness of man (secularists) attribute evil behavior to external forces, such as poverty, racism, and inequality. They reject the idea that mankind is “free to choose,” to rise above their circumstance and fulfill their potential. It is ironic that the belief in the goodness of mankind undermines our ability to grow spiritually. One of the unintended consequences of the secularist belief system leads people to transfer their personal responsibility onto others in order to exonerate them of their “bad” behavior.

Belief in our inherent goodness acts as a stumbling block to spiritual progression. Who is more likely to humble and submit one’s will to God, someone who thinks highly of oneself or someone who believes like the brother of Jared, “that they are evil continually?” One of the easiest ways to justify bad behavior is to judge ourselves by our intentions, rather than by our actions. This form of self-delusion comes as a result of thinking we are good, after all, our intentions are good, or at least we convince ourselves to think this.

This false doctrine comes from the father of all lies, who believed he was so good, so superior to both God and the Christ that he sought to "fundamentally transform" the plan of Salvation, to ensure that everyone would be saved. No doubt Satan had high self-esteem that I am sure played a role in his unwillingness to submit to Gods will, after all, why would he need to.

The belief in the goodness of mankind is contrary to the Gospel because it undermines mankind's gift of agency, the very foundation of what God’s plan is built upon. This doctrine is empowering. Without it, nothing would exist. Believing we are inherently "bad," is liberating. It means we have reached a point where Christ can make us into his image. To be molded, shaped and perfected according to his will. When we understand our true nature, then we will automatically become better parents, because we will help them to fight the greatest battle in life is which is within themselves.

Remember the words of the Brother of Jared, one of the greatest prophets to ever grace the earth, "we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually." If feeling this away about himself is good enough for him, it’s sure good enough for me!

Edited by srmaher
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Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually. (Moroni 7:18)

 

Clearly, if man is inherently evil, then man cometh of the devil.  At which point, isn't it wrong for us to label ourselves 'children of God' since we actually came from the devil?

 

Or is this just another case of having an opinion and then going to the scriptures to "prove" the opinion while ignoring the fuller context and body of scriptural works?

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Clearly, if man is inherently evil, then man cometh of the devil.  At which point, isn't it wrong for us to label ourselves 'children of God' since we actually came from the devil?

 

Or is this just another case of having an opinion and then going to the scriptures to "prove" the opinion while ignoring the fuller context and body of scriptural works?

 

Seriously! Do you even know what Moroni 7 is all about.  The first part of the book deals with how to make righteous judgments. It has nothing to do with "where we came from." Talk about trying to "prove" your point with scriptures, the difference between the two of us is that i use scriptures in the proper context, but nice try.  

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Well, if you want to look at things in a negative/pessimistic way then I guess you can but I prefer to follow Hinckley's counsel to do the opposite (of others and myself).

https://www.lds.org/new-era/2001/07/words-of-the-prophet-the-spirit-of-optimism?lang=eng

 

Perhaps your projecting your own feelings about this issue. Theres nothing pessimistic about this idea at all, and if it wasn't important, then why does the Book of Mormon devote so much time to it? I would argue that its among the most important ideas in mortality, after all, over 100 million people died in the 20th century because of the ideologic belief that mankind is inherently good, Ideologies such as communism, socialism, and fascism. 

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Perhaps your projecting your own feelings about this issue. Theres nothing pessimistic about this idea at all, and if it wasn't important, then why does the Book of Mormon devote so much time to it? I would argue that its among the most important ideas in mortality, after all, over 100 million people died in the 20th century because of the ideologic belief that mankind is inherently good, Ideologies such as communism, socialism, and fascism. 

 

Have you considered that you, yourself, are projecting your own feelings on the issue?

 

And have you considered that the ideologic belief that mankind is inherently good also applies to Democracy? "A democracy of 3 wolves and a sheep is great if you're a wolf."

Or a Republic? Or literally any set of rules that apply to civilization and the people that govern them?

 

In your defense, "The natural man is an enemy to God."

 

So, yes: Mankind is naturally wicked.

 

Mankind also has a higher inherent divinity as well, which looks towards God - "All things denote there is a God". So, yes: Mankind is inherently good.

 

Which way we turn is dependent upon our Agency and whether we follow our natural man or our inherent divinity as Sons of God.

 

So mankind is naturally wicked, but inherently good. You're welcome.

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Seriously! Do you even know what Moroni 7 is all about.  The first part of the book deals with how to make righteous judgments. It has nothing to do with "where we came from." Talk about trying to "prove" your point with scriptures, the difference between the two of us is that i use scriptures in the proper context, but nice try.  

 

I think in your ranting you may have actually stumbled across my point.

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It is an interesting question. My first reaction was "does this start to sound like the Calvinist idea of 'total depravity'?" Not that it makes it necessarily wrong, but perhaps it illustrates just how long this has been debated in Christian circles.

 

I do not know the answer to this. I'm not sure I expect a small LDS forum like this to be able to resolve a question like this once and for all. I do see a few principles that seem pertinent:

1) Humility is essential.

2) To paraphrase Moroni, part of the purpose of our inherent sinfulness is to get us to turn towards the Savior and rely on Him for redemption from sin. Sometimes we "hide" from the Savior or otherwise refuse to approach Him because we are "too sinful" for Him to be able to save us. As we acknowledge our sinful nature, we need to be sure that we are turning towards God and His Christ to be redeemed from that nature.

3) I think there is an element of discernment in this as we try to judge which specific inclinations and desires are part of our inherent sinfulness, and which ones are given to us by God to lead us to Him.

Edited by MrShorty
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I agree with FunkyTown. The simple truth is that those who commit evil in this life are allowing their nature to rule them.

 

...and as far as government

 

"We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion."
D&C 121:39 ~ Joseph Smith the Prophet in an epistle to the Church while he was a prisoner in the jail at Liberty, Missouri, dated March 20, 1839.

 

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."
~ Lord Acton in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton in 1887

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Have you considered that you, yourself, are projecting your own feelings on the issue?

 

And have you considered that the ideologic belief that mankind is inherently good also applies to Democracy? "A democracy of 3 wolves and a sheep is great if you're a wolf."

Or a Republic? Or literally any set of rules that apply to civilization and the people that govern them?

 

In your defense, "The natural man is an enemy to God."

 

So, yes: Mankind is naturally wicked.

 

Mankind also has a higher inherent divinity as well, which looks towards God - "All things denote there is a God". So, yes: Mankind is inherently good.

 

Which way we turn is dependent upon our Agency and whether we follow our natural man or our inherent divinity as Sons of God.

 

So mankind is naturally wicked, but inherently good. You're welcome.

 

Don't be going all psychology on me now :) its funny you say this because i was going to write something very similar to another member who posted something. Actually, the topic of evil has preoccupied my mind with what is happening in the world.

 

To your point. You are correct in part, section 93 teaches that our spirits are eternal and made from light and truth, which is the same material of our Christ. When we come into Mortality we are then “clothes” in a tabernacle of clay which infringes upon us a nature that must be overcome. This is the context i am speaking of, I figured the many scriptures quoted would have made them point self-evident, I was not talking out the inherent goodness of our eternal nature (created from light and truth). This is why we need a Savior, It is only through Jesus Christ that we can overcome the flesh and become like “God,” perfected i think is the word i used in the post. If we were inherently good, than why do we need a Savior (or a God for that matter) to make us good?

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It is an interesting question. My first reaction was "does this start to sound like the Calvinist idea of 'total depravity'?" Not that it makes it necessarily wrong, but perhaps it illustrates just how long this has been debated in Christian circles.

 

 

 

I think this generation has forgotten that this country was build on the notion that mankind is inherently evil and that is why need religion, in particular the God of Israel that empowers us to overcome our nature. We live in an age, where "Korihors" run the media and academia who teach that mankind does not need religion because after all, we are good. 

 

I do not know the answer to this. I'm not sure I expect a small LDS forum like this to be able to resolve a question like this once and for all. I do see a few principles that seem pertinent:

 

 

 

Don't underestimate the power of these forums my friends :) 

Edited by srmaher
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Which is what.. that you quote scriptures out of context?

 

More like: it's really easy to take your conclusion and reverse engineer your evidence from ambiguous ancient texts.

 

The fact that you conveniently wave off contradictory ideas doesn't make your thesis any more correct.  It just makes you an ideologue.  

 

Not to mention that your treatise if full of straw men and sophistry.  For instance, you say:

 

 

 

Those who believe in the goodness of man (secularists) attribute evil behavior to external forces, such as poverty, racism, and inequality. They reject the idea that mankind is “free to choose,” to rise above their circumstance and fulfill their potential.

 

which is complete and total hogwash.  Those evil secularists don't claim that evil exists because of poverty, or reject the notion of freedom of choice because of poverty.  Those evil secularists claim that the calculus of whether to steal a loaf of bread is different between a person with a pantry stocked with food and a person who hasn't eaten in three days.

 

The scriptures are rife with examples of people who make great decisions and do miraculous and wonderful things--not despite their natural state, but because of their divine state.  For crying out loud, we've even raised decades of women on the principle of their Divine (ie, not evil) Nature.

 

There's a whole depth and richness in the struggle of people to choose between right and wrong.  And you're choosing only to see one side of it, largely because it fits your political narrative.  That's really sad, and you have my pity.

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I think this generation has forgotten that this country was build on the notion that mankind is inherently evil...

 

I don't know if I would look at it exactly this way.

 

Our Constitution Was Made Only For A Moral And Religious People ~ John Adams

 

If the our government was founded based on people being mostly evil, I don't think liberty and unalienable rights would be so prominent. I would think governments that restrict freedoms hold a more pessimistic view of their citizens..."subjects" nature.

 

I do believe our current Government is an accurate reflection of a people that have lost their moral compass.

Edited by Windseeker
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srmaher,

 

I really enjoyed this discussion of the freemen and kingmen from the Maxwell Institute.

 

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1112&index=19

 

As someone who often lets world events color my perspective, and finding myself growing more jaded and cynical, it really provides perspective and brings me back to what really matters.

 

We are all both king-men and freemen at heart, just as we are all potential devils or gods.

 

We are not called upon to seize and occupy enemy territory, for the evil we are combatting is everywhere (D&C 1), and the only place we can confront it and overcome it is in our own hearts.

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I think this generation has forgotten that this country was build on the notion that mankind is inherently evil and that is why need religion, in particular the God of Israel that empowers us to overcome our nature. We live in an age, where "Korihors" run the media and academia who teach that mankind does not need religion because after all, we are good. 

 

 

Don't underestimate the power of these forums my friends :) 

 

Admittedly it has been a long time since my only poli sci class. As I recall, we did not discuss how the founding fathers built our government on the idea that mankind is inherently evil. The concept we did discuss at length seemed to be more along the lines of mankind is inherently "self-interested". While it sometimes seems that we equate this inherent "selfishness" as evil (and self-sacrifice is "good), I'm not sure if they correspond exactly.

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An old man is teaching his grandson about life. "A fight is going on inside me," he said to the boy.

 

"It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego." He continued, "The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you - and inside every other person, too."

 

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, "Which wolf will win?"

 

The old man simply replied, "The one you feed."

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I would argue that its among the most important ideas in mortality, after all, over 100 million people died in the 20th century because of the ideologic belief that mankind is inherently good, Ideologies such as communism, socialism, and fascism. 

 

Ideologies such as communism, socialism, and fascism most definitively do not believe that mankind is inherently good but that man is a beast that must be controlled and tamed.  They believe that it is only by force that mankind can be induced to do good.

 

I personally reject the notion of mankind being inherently evil.  We are gods in embryo and being inherently evil to me does not fall in line with this.  I believe within each of us is the capacity for tremendous good and evil.  

 

I believe people confuse evil with man's nature which is inherently self-centered.  The natural man is solely focused on the here and now, what will please me the most right now.  A little baby is self-centered and by nature has a right to be so; it cries because it is hungry and unable to feed itself.  It cries because it is tired and needs love and attention to snuggle and go to bed.  It cries because it is sitting in filth.  Those are all extremely self-centered feelings and needs.  As the child grows, he begins to be able to do those things for himself, but inherently he will cry, fuss, throw a fit when some need (real or imagined) is not meet.

 

If trained properly, the child has the capability to learn and recognize that some needs are really wants and are not necessary to be done right now.  The parent has the responsibility to help the child recognize that by delaying gratification many times will result in more joy and happiness.  Religion helps to teach the child as he grows into adulthood that many things that seem to bring temporary joy bring lasting misery and some things that bring temporary misery bring lasting joy.

 

"Adam fell that men are and men are that they might have joy."  The purpose of this life is to have joy, through the gospel and righteous living we will acquire more joy than had we not lived gospel principles.  "He who shall lose his life for my sake shall find it".  By giving up our short-term happiness we secure long-term blessings and happiness.  We are all self-centered, it is a matter of time perspective.

 

Those who commit evil acts have had this learning process short-circuited somewhere along the way.  Somewhere they learned to take pleasure in the short-term acts that they believe will bring happiness at a sacrifice of the long-term.

 

Religion believes that man can be taught to understand those things that will bring long-term happiness.

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yjacket

 

"Ideologies such as communism, socialism, and fascism most definitively do not believe that mankind is inherently good but that man is a beast that must be controlled and tamed.  They believe that it is only by force that mankind can be induced to do good."

 

They most certainly do, the genesis of this idea comes from Rousseau philosophy that inspirited the French Revolution  who latter influenced Marx and Engels. This idea permeates modern liberalism which provides the motivation for bringing about social justice. 

 

"I personally reject the notion of mankind being inherently evil.  We are gods in embryo and being inherently evil to me does not fall in line with this.  I believe within each of us is the capacity for tremendous good and evil."

 

I have no problem with people who differ on this issue, but being a latter day saint, what are your thoughts on the many scriptures provided that confirm our nature in mortality. That being said, we do not know what life was like in the pre-mortal life. Keep in mind, Satan and his followers were made from the same light and truth that you and I are made from, and in the they chose their path of evil. Now, were we inherently evil in the pre-mortal world? I haven't the faintest clue, but as to mortality, there is no question that our nature is evil.  Thank for taking the time to respond.

Edited by srmaher
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Admittedly it has been a long time since my only poli sci class. As I recall, we did not discuss how the founding fathers built our government on the idea that mankind is inherently evil. The concept we did discuss at length seemed to be more along the lines of mankind is inherently "self-interested". While it sometimes seems that we equate this inherent "selfishness" as evil (and self-sacrifice is "good), I'm not sure if they correspond exactly.

 

I should have clarified in my post that the choice to use the word evil is because its the word used in the BOM. I think what you are saying is absolution true in that we are inherently self-centered. perhaps that would have been a better way of saying it. 

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