Mormons and Gays


JacoJohnson
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This is what you posted in #75; "

Do you honestly believe that someone who consistently puts of natural, evil tendencies won't change over time? You believe that the inclinations remain, exactly the same, exactly as strong, no matter how much we put them off and yield to the enticings of the Spirit?

 

I do not believe that. Practice makes perfect. Practice not being angry, and over time, you stop being angry. Add the Atonement and the literal changing effect it can have on our lives and character and the recipe is complete. Change is possible."

 

Now in this post you say; "If we overcome the evil (whether the inclination goes away or not) then we haven't failed."

 

... you cant have it both ways.

 

Oh come on! Those two ideas are in no way incongruent.

 

If someone overcame some evil inclination through their spiritual prowess and they no longer listen or feel the influence of that particular inclination, you want me to believe that if the person dropped their gaurd and stopped being righteous that the evil inclination has dissapeared and will never challenge that person again?   Or could it be that simply the person in their spiritual righteousness is keeping at bay the evil inclination that persists as a "thorn in the flesh" but kept under control as they don't give heed to that inclination when they are keeping their self spiritually pure.  If they were to drop their armor, the evil inclination would gain power again - why? Because it never went away!!!!

 

What, you think a thorn pulled from the side can't be stuck back in? Of course, any of us who drop our guards can be (and will be) bound by the chains of Satan and dragged speedily down to Hell.

 

But, yes. I believe that no more desire to do evil means no more desire to do evil.

 

And no, I don't think if I dropped my guard that I'd revert back to the stupid things I used to think, do, and feel as a younger man. I'm past them. They are not who I am any longer. I'm not saying it's impossible. And I would certainly fall into some other traps if not vigilant. But....

 

:deadhorse:  <--- We should add this emoticon to our signatures.

 

Hey! You want to discuss polygamy again? :disenchanted: After all, It's front and center in Mormondom news again. 

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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Since I had a few minutes before hitting bed, I thought I'd post some quotes in support of my points:

 

At the same time, let us not justify ourselves in a casual effort. Let us not be content to retain some disposition to do evil. Let us worthily partake of the sacrament each week and continue to draw upon the Holy Spirit to root out the last vestiges of impurity within us. I testify that as you continue in the path of spiritual rebirth, the atoning grace of Jesus Christ will take away your sins and the stain of those sins in you, temptations will lose their appeal, and through Christ you will become holy, as He and our Father are holy.
 

We are instructed to “come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny [ourselves] of all ungodliness” (Moroni 10:32), to become “new creature in Christ (see 2 Corinthians 5:17), to put off “the natural man” (Mosiah 3:19), and to experience “a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually” (Mosiah 5:2). Please note that the conversion described in these verses is mighty, not minor—a spiritual rebirth and fundamental change of what we feel and desire, what we think and do, and what we are. Indeed, the essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ entails a fundamental and permanent change in our very nature made possible through our reliance upon “the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah” (2 Nephi 2:8). As we choose to follow the Master, we choose to be changed—to be spiritually reborn.
 
The gospel of Jesus Christ encompasses much more than avoiding, overcoming, and being cleansed from sin and the bad influences in our lives; it also essentially entails doing good, being good, and becoming better. Repenting of our sins and seeking forgiveness are spiritually necessary, and we must always do so. But remission of sin is not the only or even the ultimate purpose of the gospel. To have our hearts changed by the Holy Spirit such that “we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually” (Mosiah 5:2), as did King Benjamin’s people, is the covenant responsibility we have accepted. This mighty change is not simply the result of working harder or developing greater individual discipline. Rather, it is the consequence of a fundamental change in our desires, our motives, and our natures made possible through the Atonement of Christ the Lord. Our spiritual purpose is to overcome both sin and the desire to sin, both the taint and the tyranny of sin.
 
The essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ entails a fundamental and permanent change in our very nature made possible through the Savior’s Atonement.

 

The doctrine of repentance is much broader than a dictionary’s definition. When Jesus said “repent,” His disciples recorded that command in the Greek language with the verb metanoeo.  This powerful word has great significance. In this word, the prefix meta means “change.”  The suffix relates to four important Greek terms: nous, meaning “the mind”;  gnosis, meaning “knowledge”;  pneuma, meaning “spirit”;  and pnoe, meaning “breath.” 
 
Thus, when Jesus said “repent,” He asked us to change—to change our mind, knowledge, and spirit—even our breath. A prophet explained that such a change in one’s breath is to breathe with grateful acknowledgment of Him who grants each breath. King Benjamin said, “If ye should serve him who has created you … and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath … from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.” 
 
Yes, the Lord has commanded us to repent, to change our ways, to come unto Him, and be more like Him.  This requires a total change. Alma so taught his son: “Learn wisdom in thy youth,” he said. “Learn in thy youth to keep the commandments of God. … Let all thy thoughts be directed unto the Lord; yea, let the affections of thy heart be placed upon the Lord forever.” 

 

The third important principle for us to understand if we would be true members of the Church is that repentance involves not just a change of actions, but a change of heart.
 
When King Benjamin finished his remarkable address in the land of Zarahemla, the people all cried with one voice that they believed his words. They knew of a surety that his promises of redemption were true, because, said they, “the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent … has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, [and note this] that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.” (Mosiah 5:2.)
 
When we have undergone this mighty change, which is brought about only through faith in Jesus Christ and through the operation of the Spirit upon us, it is as though we have become a new person. Thus, the change is likened to a new birth. Thousands of you have experienced this change. You have forsaken lives of sin, sometimes deep and offensive sin, and through applying the blood of Christ in your lives, have become clean. You have no more disposition to return to your old ways. You are in reality a new person. This is what is meant by a change of heart.
 
And from the topic, CONVERSION:
Conversion includes a change in behavior, but it goes beyond behavior; it is a change in our very nature. It is such a significant change that the Lord and His prophets refer to it as a rebirth, a change of heart, and a baptism of fire.

 

___________

 

These were only a very minor few of the talks, quotes, concepts, and scriptures that teach us that change of our very souls, natures, feelings, hearts, minds, and actions is absolutely possible through obedience and the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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In a way, yes.

But the ideal is that we live our lives in such a manner that when one attacks us, they're attacking Jesus who we represent... or the inverse, if they attack God, they attack us who represent Him. But then, we're not perfect. And this is really the struggle here... because if we ever get to that level of ideal - we are CHANGED! And that's our main purpose in life - that's what Celestial glory is all about... becoming One.

But, yes, this is way too deep from being attracted to the same sex... all I'm really saying is... it is not impossible - it is what we hope to become.

I'm afraid I do not share your hope. I want to be human, and to me, party of being human is feeling the spectrum of emotions associated with that humanity. My hope is to text to those emotions as Christ would, as I believe he felt the same spectrum.

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Since I had a few minutes before hitting bed, I thought I'd post some quotes in support of my points:

D. TODD CHRISTOFFERSON

At the same time, let us not justify ourselves in a casual effort. Let us not be content to retain some disposition to do evil. Let us worthily partake of the sacrament each week and continue to draw upon the Holy Spirit to root out the last vestiges of impurity within us. I testify that as you continue in the path of spiritual rebirth, the atoning grace of Jesus Christ will take away your sins and the stain of those sins in you, temptations will lose their appeal, and through Christ you will become holy, as He and our Father are holy.

DAVID A. BEDNAR

We are instructed to “come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny [ourselves] of all ungodliness” (Moroni 10:32), to become “new creature in Christ (see 2 Corinthians 5:17), to put off “the natural man” (Mosiah 3:19), and to experience “a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually” (Mosiah 5:2). Please note that the conversion described in these verses is mighty, not minor—a spiritual rebirth and fundamental change of what we feel and desire, what we think and do, and what we are. Indeed, the essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ entails a fundamental and permanent change in our very nature made possible through our reliance upon “the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah” (2 Nephi 2:8). As we choose to follow the Master, we choose to be changed—to be spiritually reborn.

DAVID A. BEDNAR

The gospel of Jesus Christ encompasses much more than avoiding, overcoming, and being cleansed from sin and the bad influences in our lives; it also essentially entails doing good, being good, and becoming better. Repenting of our sins and seeking forgiveness are spiritually necessary, and we must always do so. But remission of sin is not the only or even the ultimate purpose of the gospel. To have our hearts changed by the Holy Spirit such that “we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually” (Mosiah 5:2), as did King Benjamin’s people, is the covenant responsibility we have accepted. This mighty change is not simply the result of working harder or developing greater individual discipline. Rather, it is the consequence of a fundamental change in our desires, our motives, and our natures made possible through the Atonement of Christ the Lord. Our spiritual purpose is to overcome both sin and the desire to sin, both the taint and the tyranny of sin.

DAVID A. BEDNAR

The essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ entails a fundamental and permanent change in our very nature made possible through the Savior’s Atonement.

RUSSELL M. NELSON

The doctrine of repentance is much broader than a dictionary’s definition. When Jesus said “repent,” His disciples recorded that command in the Greek language with the verb metanoeo. This powerful word has great significance. In this word, the prefix meta means “change.” The suffix relates to four important Greek terms: nous, meaning “the mind”; gnosis, meaning “knowledge”; pneuma, meaning “spirit”; and pnoe, meaning “breath.”

Thus, when Jesus said “repent,” He asked us to change—to change our mind, knowledge, and spirit—even our breath. A prophet explained that such a change in one’s breath is to breathe with grateful acknowledgment of Him who grants each breath. King Benjamin said, “If ye should serve him who has created you … and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath … from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.”

Yes, the Lord has commanded us to repent, to change our ways, to come unto Him, and be more like Him. This requires a total change. Alma so taught his son: “Learn wisdom in thy youth,” he said. “Learn in thy youth to keep the commandments of God. … Let all thy thoughts be directed unto the Lord; yea, let the affections of thy heart be placed upon the Lord forever.”

EZRA TAFT BENSON

The third important principle for us to understand if we would be true members of the Church is that repentance involves not just a change of actions, but a change of heart.

When King Benjamin finished his remarkable address in the land of Zarahemla, the people all cried with one voice that they believed his words. They knew of a surety that his promises of redemption were true, because, said they, “the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent … has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, [and note this] that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.” (Mosiah 5:2.)

When we have undergone this mighty change, which is brought about only through faith in Jesus Christ and through the operation of the Spirit upon us, it is as though we have become a new person. Thus, the change is likened to a new birth. Thousands of you have experienced this change. You have forsaken lives of sin, sometimes deep and offensive sin, and through applying the blood of Christ in your lives, have become clean. You have no more disposition to return to your old ways. You are in reality a new person. This is what is meant by a change of heart.

And from the topic, CONVERSION:

Conversion includes a change in behavior, but it goes beyond behavior; it is a change in our very nature. It is such a significant change that the Lord and His prophets refer to it as a rebirth, a change of heart, and a baptism of fire.

___________

These were only a very minor few of the talks, quotes, concepts, and scriptures that teach us that change of our very souls, natures, feelings, hearts, minds, and actions is absolutely possible through obedience and the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

I saw in none of these that the fundamental desires, such as sexual attraction, of our bodies could be removed. They were all about changing our actions and thoughts. Sorry.

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To clarify, since I haven't been following closely: are people saying that gays can change, or just that they can control their urges?

 

I get the impression that they are saying both, that they can change AND they can control their urges. I agree with the fact that they can control their urges (just like heterosexuals can do it as well, so it is not really related to sexual orientation).

 

Having said that, I personally believe that until we get unambiguous and irrefutable answers from the scientific community that can clearly state (without a shadow of a doubt) that people choose to be gay and not born gay, then we should be very careful when we share sentiments with the underlined tone of "gay people can change their sexual orientation if they really want to", add religion to the mix  and I can only imagine how a teenager (or any other person) who is struggling with same sex attraction might feel if they try to "change", pray, fast, read their scriptures, you name it..  and do everything they can to be "straight" to discover that their feelings remain unchanged and feel they probably do not have enough Faith, that they are not worthy enough to get God's help to "change" them, etc. And let me tell you something, as a heterosexual woman, no amount of fasting, prayers, Christ's atonement, reading all the scriptures morning, afternoon and night would make *me* "change" and feel attracted to other women.

 

I believe we need to be mindful of these things because we might be hurting more than actually helping.

Edited by Suzie
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I saw in none of these that the fundamental desires, such as sexual attraction, of our bodies could be removed. They were all about changing our actions and thoughts. Sorry.

 

Apparently you don't read very well, since these quotes pretty much all speak about changing "desires" and "natures", not just thoughts and actions.

 

As in, "and fundamental change of what we feel and desire." And you're coming back with, "I saw in none of these that the fundamental desires..." ?? Hmmm.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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As cliche as it might be, I am reminded of the serenity prayer: [G]rant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

 

It is not cliche and I love the Serenity prayer!

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I get the impression that they are saying both, that they can change AND they can control their urges. I agree with the fact that they can control their urges (just like heterosexuals can do it as well, so it is not really related to sexual orientation).

 

Having said that, I personally believe that until we get unambiguous and irrefutable answers from the scientific community that can clearly state (without a shadow of a doubt) that people choose to be gay and not born gay, then we should be very careful when we share sentiments with the underlined tone of "gay people can change their sexual orientation if they really want to", add religion to the mix  and I can only imagine how a teenager (or any other person) who is struggling with same sex attraction might feel if they try to "change", pray, fast, read their scriptures, you name it..  and do everything they can to be "straight" to discover that their feelings remain unchanged and feel they probably do not have enough Faith, that they are not worthy enough to get God's help to "change" them, etc. And let me tell you something, as a heterosexual woman, no amount of fasting, prayers, Christ's atonement, reading all the scriptures morning, afternoon and night would make *me* "change" and feel attracted to other women.

 

I believe we need to be mindful of these things because we might be hurting more than actually helping.

 

Actually there has been unambiguous and irrefutable scientific evidence that in humans any cognitive behaviors can be learned (changed, programmed or acquired) - by the likes of Pavlov, Skinner and the notorious Nazi, Joseph Goebbles.  We see portions of such techniques of this on a contracted scale almost daily with what is called "peer pressure".

 

I would also point out that it is a tenet of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ that we can "forsake" our sins and even our inclinations to sin through faith in the L-rd Jesus Christ, Repentance, baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost.  I personally know of at least one individual that was caught in the temptations of Homosexuality that did change and was able to overcome the temptations via the method I have outlined.  The argument is put forth is that he was never really Homosexual in the first place.  I am not inclined to believe that disclaimer.  I knew him and his struggles before when he could not resist the temptations and I knew him many years later when such temptations were no longer temptations.

 

Rhetorical logic says that one counter example disproves a definitive statement.  Thus it is scientific that it is not impossible for an individual to turn from homosexuality.   And when we speak of addictions or habits that would seem impossible to break - the express reason for failure many be different and varied.  But what is contrary to scientific inquire is the implication that cognitive human behaviors cannot be changed.  And if homosexuality in humans is not a cognitive behavior how is it that the individual making such claim does so with out the cognitive realization of the difference between the male and female?

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Apparently you don't read very well, since these quotes pretty much all speak about changing "desires" and "natures", not just thoughts and actions.

 

As in, "and fundamental change of what we feel and desire." And you're coming back with, "I saw in none of these that the fundamental desires..." ?? Hmmm.

 

 

*sigh*

 

Attacking me really assists the conversation along well.

 

I'm done.

:D

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Apparently you don't read very well, since these quotes pretty much all speak about changing "desires" and "natures", not just thoughts and actions.

 

As in, "and fundamental change of what we feel and desire." And you're coming back with, "I saw in none of these that the fundamental desires..." ?? Hmmm.

 

But seriously, it seems like you read extremely well, because you're reading more than what their words are saying.  I'm distinguishing between 'desires' and 'fundamental desires'.  The first being what we want when we think about what we want out of life, etc. (so we can fundamentally change them), the latter are our knee jerk desires.  A good example I can think of is a buddy of mine who used to drink and quit when he got married because 'alcohol may not hurt a marriage, but it'll certainly never help one'.  He's told me that even to this day (he's been dry for more than twenty-five years) when he smells a certain drink, he wants one.  His knee-jerk desire is to have one, but his desire for what he wants out of life doesn't change, and that desire is what wins out.  This is the kind of change of desire it sounds to me like these quotes are talking about.

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But seriously, it seems like you read extremely well, because you're reading more than what their words are saying.  I'm distinguishing between 'desires' and 'fundamental desires'.  The first being what we want when we think about what we want out of life, etc. (so we can fundamentally change them), the latter are our knee jerk desires.  A good example I can think of is a buddy of mine who used to drink and quit when he got married because 'alcohol may not hurt a marriage, but it'll certainly never help one'.  He's told me that even to this day (he's been dry for more than twenty-five years) when he smells a certain drink, he wants one.  His knee-jerk desire is to have one, but his desire for what he wants out of life doesn't change, and that desire is what wins out.  This is the kind of change of desire it sounds to me like these quotes are talking about.

 

To me, you're the one reading things into it by defining what kind of desires it must be talking about. I'm not reading anything into it but what it says. Desires. I don't know why we'd limit the meaning, or classify certain types of desires as excluded from the meaning.

 

And if you've read through the discussion, you'll note that there's an agreement across the board that we may not overcome in this life. So someone still wanting alcohol after so many years doesn't really mean much to the point. Individual failure to change does not prove that change is ultimately impossible.

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If there was irrefutable evidence that people are not born gay, we wouldn't be discussing this topic. It is because there are no clear answers, people all around the world still have these sort of discussions. Can someone be programmed to behave in a certain way? Absolutely. Does it mean the inner self have changed? No.

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If there was irrefutable evidence that people are not born gay, we wouldn't be discussing this topic. It is because there are no clear answers, people all around the world still have these sort of discussions. Can someone be programmed to behave in a certain way? Absolutely. Does it mean the inner self have changed? No.

 

But we sure have a lot of prophets and apostles saying that our inner selves can change. Hmm.

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To me, you're the one reading things into it by defining what kind of desires it must be talking about. I'm not reading anything into it but what it says. Desires. I don't know why we'd limit the meaning, or classify certain types of desires as excluded from the meaning.

 

And if you've read through the discussion, you'll note that there's an agreement across the board that we may not overcome in this life. So someone still wanting alcohol after so many years doesn't really mean much to the point. Individual failure to change does not prove that change is ultimately impossible.

 

Why didn't I go get this quote a while ago?  "

Where the Church stands:

The experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters."

 

http://mormonsandgays.org/

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Why didn't I go get this quote a while ago?  "

Where the Church stands:

The experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters."

 

http://mormonsandgays.org/

 

Because anyone who isn't familiar with that quote already and is attempting to discuss "Mormons and Gays" is an uninformed fool. So it doesn't need to be quoted. 

 

I think I've said this earlier...but I'll restate if so. The "choose how to respond to them" is the component in question. My entire contention is that doing one's darndest to rid oneself of any imperfect feelings (albeit over time and through constant, lifelong vigilance) is the only proper choice to make. Any other choice but to fight the good fight and never give up in that regard is to give in to it, and constitutes a sinful choice and action.

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Because anyone who isn't familiar with that quote already and is attempting to discuss "Mormons and Gays" is an uninformed fool. So it doesn't need to be quoted. 

 

I think I've said this earlier...but I'll restate if so. The "choose how to respond to them" is the component in question. My entire contention is that doing one's darndest to rid oneself of any imperfect feelings (albeit over time and through constant, lifelong vigilance) is the only proper choice to make. Any other choice but to fight the good fight and never give up in that regard is to give in to it, and constitutes a sinful choice and action.

 

You sure are quick to call people fools... interesting.

 

It blatantly says it is not a sin.  So, either the Apostles who put that site/quote together are being truthful, which debunks your argument (as we know that if changing that was our choice, but we didn't do it, it would be considered a sin), or they're lying to make the discussion with people who have same-sex attraction easier.  Which are you choosing?

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You sure are quick to call people fools... interesting.

 

There's a big difference between directly calling someone a fool and stating that certain actions are foolish or that generally a person who would act a certain way would be a fool. Running out in traffic is one. Fingers in electrical sockets is another. Not at least somewhat studying a topic before debating it...yeah...I think that fits.

 

Do you not agree that it would be foolish to discuss the Mormon position on gays having never bothered to read the site mormonsandgays?

 

And "interesting" how? I know this sort of a response is calculated to make me look like a jerk and thereby undermine my points. And it'll probably work with some people, so I know I should be more careful in my wording, even when it's not directed at someone. Regardless, it's a big ol' logical fallacy accusation. Whether I'm quick to call people fools or not is entirely irrelevant to the argument.

 

And your accusations that I'm being insensitive, mean, condescending, and rude, are just as flawed as my being insensitive, mean, condescending, and rude. It's every bit as unkind of you as is the unkindness you claim me guilty of. So who's the bigger jerk, the jerk, or the jerk who calls him a jerk? :) (That's a twist on a Star Wars quote in case you aren't familiar.)

 

It blatantly says it is not a sin.  So, either the Apostles who put that site/quote together are being truthful, which debunks your argument (as we know that if changing that was our choice, but we didn't do it, it would be considered a sin), or they're lying to make the discussion with people who have same-sex attraction easier.  Which are you choosing?

 

It blatantly says the attraction is not a sin. It says nothing about the choices that got one there. And it blatantly says that acting on the attraction is a sin.

 

What's at contention is what it means to "act on it". I'm claiming that accepting it as just who you are is, indeed, acting on it in a sinful way -- though certainly less sinful than...you know...acting acting on it. I'm claiming that anything short of a constant struggle to be perfect, even in our feelings, is falling short of what we have been asked to do and be. I'm claiming that if God has told us we can change, that I believe Him.

 

Accepting it as just who you are IS a thought. So even if you go with only thoughts and actions count as sin, it still fits.

 

And this general translation that the church's "attraction is not a sin" means that we cannot or should not change doesn't equate. If I feel the temptation to sin...say steal or lie...but I resist, I haven't sinned. But should not my ultimate goal be to stop feeling tempted to steal and lie. To actually not have any more desire to do so? I can't fathom what's so contrary about this. What's so undesirable about the idea that we can actually remove temptation over time? Seems like a pretty cool thing to me. The best I've seen is that the idea offends people. That's never been much of a reason to discard truth. And, moreover, if someone's offended by it, then the don't understand the principle.

 

Reactions like Suzie's and others that people will feel guilty when they don't see change are very clearly addressed in those talks and quotes. It is a lifelong (and beyond) process, and will come line-upon-line. Becoming as Christ is is a process. That process involves the clear principles of long-suffering and enduring to the end. Through doing so, we change. Hearts, souls, mind, body, and even breath. Through obedience we change to where our desires to do evil go away. We have no more desire. Why would anyone argue otherwise? What value is there in trying to claim that some desires won't change? I can't understand what value there is in that. The Lord's promises are sure. He has taught us again and again that if we obey His will that we will become Like him, that we will be made pure, and that we will be perfected. I believe that, and don't see any special pleading arguments that would be exceptions.

 

Moreover, the "I can't change" philosophy is, to my thinking, decidedly much, much more dangerous than the "I've tried and failed so what's wrong with me?" potential. The accept-who-you-are-is-better philosophy is the world talking. It's Satan talking. Christ's philosophy is, and always has been, change who you are.

 

My argument isn't debunked in any way, and is entirely supported by a myriad of other apostolic quotes that teach very clearly that we need to change our very natures as part of the repentance process. Or, rather, that through the repentance process, our very natures, even our feelings, will change through the power of the Atonement.

 

We can't throw out the rest of the gospel because of one header paragraph and/or a few other apostles comments. The rest of the gospel and it's principles still remain true. So either the header paragraph and comments fit the rest of the gospel (my argument) or they are contrary to it and one of the principles is wrong. So if I am reading things into that quote, it's only to reconcile it with plain gospel truths that I do not believe to be wrong.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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If there was irrefutable evidence that people are not born gay, we wouldn't be discussing this topic. It is because there are no clear answers, people all around the world still have these sort of discussions. Can someone be programmed to behave in a certain way? Absolutely. Does it mean the inner self have changed? No.

 

If there was irrefutable evidence that the sun is at the center of the solar system Galileo would never have been opposed by religious zealots????   We have irrefutable evidence that when those that do not want to believe something are faced with the evidence of it - they will deny the evidence and keep their unfounded opinions.   Jesus refereed to this phenomenon as those that have eyes but do not see.  The modern term is denial.  It has been happening since Eden.

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Why didn't I go get this quote a while ago?  "

Where the Church stands:

The experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters."

 

http://mormonsandgays.org/

 

Not sure how more clear can it get about people "choosing" same sex-attraction.

 

Edited by Suzie
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If there was irrefutable evidence that the sun is at the center of the solar system Galileo would never have been opposed by religious zealots????   We have irrefutable evidence that when those that do not want to believe something are faced with the evidence of it - they will deny the evidence and keep their unfounded opinions.   Jesus refereed to this phenomenon as those that have eyes but do not see.  The modern term is denial.  It has been happening since Eden.

 

 Your opinion. I respect it. As a professional myself, I am clearly stating that if there was irrefutable evidence that people are not born gay, we wouldn't continue researching about the issue and certainly, we wouldn't have this discussion.

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Oh, I just find people who are quick to put themselves above a group of others interesting.  It makes me want to know more about your thought process.  I, personally, think everyone has something important to say on this topic, because I think living life is study enough to have a valuable viewpoint, so, no, I wouldn't see it as foolish.  Though I personally choose to study.

 

I think you're reading too much into other quotes.  Your view of being able to change EVERYTHING, including things that come without any prompt of our own doesn't savvy with what I've seen personally.  I see no clash with the header and the rest of the quotes you posted.  Which is more likely?  That I've understood all quotes correctly, because they do fit together well, or that you've found, not an obscure quote, but a header put out by the church to be false.  Just something to think about.

 

And there is a danger in people thinking "I've tried and failed so what's wrong with me?", even more than "I can't change".  Here's why:  "I can't change." leads to the more immediate need:  Stopping the action.  Once it is accepted that 'this is the way it is' people are able to find solutions.  The alternative usually leads to feelings of self-loathing, depression, and, in some tragic incidences, suicide.  I'd prefer someone decide to love themselves for who they are in that moment and working on what they can work on, than the alternative.

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Not sure how more clear can it get about people "choosing" same sex-attraction.

 

Actually, it's not that clear due to the word "individuals", which could be read as not everybody. So it reads, possibly, not every one, but certain individuals, do not choose... It's obvious that some do not choose. I do not think it clear at all that no one chooses...and I know for a fact that some do. Moreover, it doesn't play into the nurture vs. nature thing whatsoever.  So...yeah...not that clear after all.

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