BYU students protesting no-beard policy


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http://www.jrn.com/kivitv/news/BYU-students-protest-facial-hair-policy-277437041.html

 

Either their mommies are members of Ordain Women, or they gave in to their little boys' tantrums so that's how they learned to get what they want.

 

BYU has a code. It's had a code since the beginning. Part of BYU is an image, and that code helps them maintain it. Don't like the code, don't go to BYU.

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http://www.jrn.com/kivitv/news/BYU-students-protest-facial-hair-policy-277437041.html

 

Either their mommies are members of Ordain Women, or they gave in to their little boys' tantrums so that's how they learned to get what they want.

 

BYU has a code. It's had a code since the beginning. Part of BYU is an image, and that code helps them maintain it. Don't like the code, don't go to BYU.

 

Yes, BYU has a code. However, the particular part under consideration here (men must by clean shaven) was certainly not part of the code since the beginning (late 19th century). I'm not certain of the history of the dress and grooming standards, but my impression is they started somewhere in the mid 20th century (the article claims '70's), probably in response to the "hippie" movement and similar cultural/political forces of those decades.

 

IMO, the link between long hair and beards that was present during this era is mostly faded. As  BYU alumnus who works with many professionals who choose to wear beards, I think it is well within these students' rights to ask the administration to reconsider a cultural policy for which the cultural motivation has faded into the sunset.

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I wonder if they have asked peacefully first, though. Maybe by way of petition or something. You know, instead of making a public spectacle that sheds a bad light on the university, in an effort to get public pressure behind their cause.

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The thing I find interesting is that--at least during my time there--BYU was very insistent that the honor code was in place because the students had asked for its implementation back in nineteen-twenty-something. 

 

I like the no-beards policy.  I have little sympathy for agitators generally, and Mormon agitators in particular.  But--while I generally assume that LDS leadership are fundamentally honest and have good intentions--experience has taught me that the same is often not true for a wide swath of the mid-level bureaucrats who administer BYU.  If they want to perpetuate the fairy tale that the Honor Code has democratic origins--I have no problem seeing them hoisted with their own petard by students who purport to take them at their word and ask for change through a democratic process.

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I wonder if they have asked peacefully first, though. Maybe by way of petition or something. You know, instead of making a public spectacle that sheds a bad light on the university, in an effort to get public pressure behind their cause.

 

The report said: "...they showed up for the...event, wore their beards, signed a petition and rode to the administration building with a message." How is any of that not peaceful? The video shows a bunch of very polite, respectful and thoughtful young adults. I doubt very much that BYU was tarnished by this event; and I say event because it wasn't even close to being a protest.

 

M.

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I guess by "peacefully" I meant "quietly". Absent the agitating, as JAG said. I think the best way to handle any disagreement is private, at first. Not by staging a public event and inviting the media, which they must have, or they wouldn't have been there to film it.

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http://www.jrn.com/kivitv/news/BYU-students-protest-facial-hair-policy-277437041.html

 

Either their mommies are members of Ordain Women, or they gave in to their little boys' tantrums so that's how they learned to get what they want.

 

BYU has a code. It's had a code since the beginning. Part of BYU is an image, and that code helps them maintain it. Don't like the code, don't go to BYU.

 

I can't believe this, but this is probably one of the only times that I have disagreed with you Eowyn. Although, only partially :)

 

I see this as being completely separate from Ordain Women and not comparable. A beard at worst at BYU will get you kicked out right? Not excommunicated.  This is not protesting the church, even if it is owned and ran by the church. Hopefully the few that participate will understand that when BYU sticks with the code. 

 

I agree with you that if you don't like the code, don't go to BYU. There would be plenty clambering to take your spot if you decide to leave or get kicked out over this. 

 

I am a bearded fellow most of the time and I support bearded people. But I see this as a non-issue for the school. They won't lose bright and talented students over this either way they go. These kids just need to suck it up and live up to fair agreement they already made. 

Edited by EarlJibbs
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I would agree that this situation is not comparable to Ordain Women, mainly because the issue of beard or no beard does not affect LDS doctrine. As for these sort of events being public instead of private, I think it has a lot to do with how society as a whole has changed, wanting to bring current issues to the forefront of social media. This is something both sides of the fence does.

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Outsider view--lobbying to allow beards at BYU does not seem that substantial, on the surface.  However, if successful, administrators probably fear a slippery slope.  What will they ask for next?  Are we loosening our standards?  If that's the fear, I have to wonder what next indeed?  There isn't a whole lot that students can lobby for, given the church's strict standards.

 

As for the "take the standards or go elsewhere" line--isn't that a bit dismissive?  After all, BYU holds a special place in LDS culture.  Graduates likely can expect a certain measure of favor from employers with LDS ties.  It is a prestigious school in the greater education world, but an especially prized one for LDS.  So, to insist that anyone studying there either stay shaved or transfer out seems harsh.  That may be the end result, but is it really the height of rebellion to lobby for permission to wear a beard?  I would hope the worse that could happen would not be dishonorable removal from the school, but rather a definitive, "No, we're not changing our standard."  Then again, the school might just decide it is time to jettison this particular grooming standard.

Edited by prisonchaplain
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Outsider view--lobbying to allow beards at BYU does not seem that substantial, on the surface.  However, if successful, administrators probably fear a slippery slope.  What will they ask for next?  Are we loosening our standards?  If that's the fear, I have to wonder what next indeed?  There isn't a whole lot that students can lobby for, given the church's strict standards.

 

As for the "take the standards or go elsewhere" line--isn't that a bit dismissive?  After all, BYU holds a special place in LDS culture.  Graduates likely can expect a certain measure of favor from employers with LDS ties.  It is a prestigious school in the greater education world, but an especially prized one for LDS.  So, to insist that anyone studying there either stay shaved or transfer out seems harsh.  That may be the end result, but is it really the height of rebellion to lobby for permission to wear a beard?  I would hope the worse that could happen would not be dishonorable removal from the school, but rather a definitive, "No, we're not changing our standard."  Then again, the school might just decide it is time to jettison this particular grooming standard.

 

Here's something interesting.  BYU-I does not allow shorts on campus.  Or capris.  Or flip-flops.  For either men or women.  Knee-length (or longer) skirts and dresses are allowed for women, and pants are allowed for both, but not shorts.  What does that have to do with doctrine?  Absolutely nothing.  Same with the beards.

 

Oh, and both campuses permit facial hair of the mustache persuasion.

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I see this from so many angles. On the one hand, BYU has every right to set their standards. On the other, some may receive an unpleasant and contradictory message. That shouldn't be BYU's fault, but we are taught as children that we are reaponsible for all the messages we send, intended or unintended. Companies hire entire PR reps for this very reason.

However, the highest standards of professionalism being kept shines favorably on any institution. The problem with "highest standards" and "best practices" (not so much an issue in this case) is that you can always do more! It never ends. Arbitrary decisions are always made that determine where the bar is. And the recourse, with all institutions, always seems to be circular: "We do this because it's best practices. Why is it best practices? Because people agreed it should be. Why did they agree to that? Because it's best practices." Or, in the case, best practices = the highest standards of professionalism.

But, that also means that this decision by BYU is not made in a vacuum! It mirrors the standards of professionalism throughout world wide professional community.

But, someone else may ask why BYU is so concerned with its image. They would invoke our doctrines of pride and being of the world vs. in the world. That's a debate that would go round and round and would never be settled collectively, only via individual belief.

I've also seen some members use the church as recourse for BYU while others say that BYU is a separate entity: the latter being more true than the former in actuality.

It is true that if people don't like BYU's honor code, they can go somewhere else. Education is voluntary, as is which university to attend. At the same time, if there are only 3 Mormon schools in the US (2 on the mainland), then being told, "don't like it, go somewhere else" really doesn't equate to avoiding Walmart for the same reasons because there's Target, Kohl's, grocery stores, Best Buy, Sports Authority, Amazon, Ebay, shopping malls, Autozone, car dealerships, Discount Tire, Home Depot, Lowe's, Walgreens, CVS, Office Max, Staples, Game Stop, Hobby Lobby, Ikea, Barnes & Noble, Bed Bath & Beyond, Pier 1, and Dollar stores.

These debates have the potential go on forever, many times unresolved. It's important to pick and choose battles. It's also important to pick every battle that can have a bearing on whether or not we get into the Celestial Kingdom.

Edited by Urstadt
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I'm not big on superficial standards that have no meaning, to me at least.

If that's the image the college wants to project I empathize with the students, but ultimately it is up to the college.

 

 

I didn't know about the negative bias against shorts!  I LOVE shorts. Yeah, other, closer, decent, colleges have better rankings for my major, so arbitrary "standards" don't help it look like an attractive choice. Still a potential place to go to for education, just not #1.

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What is so hard with following rules? Really. Why is it so difficult for some people to understand that some rules are in place just to see if you will follow them?

It's a simple concept called h u m i l i t y.....

...so just shave for crying out loud. It's not like you are being asked to cross the plains again.

It blows my mind that so many people freak out over the beard thing but don't seem to give a bleep that our government is openly and blatantly breaking major established constitutional laws.

Again, mind blown.

(...and yes I had a bad day at work.)

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Protesting the Lord is one thing, protesting silly BYU policies however I fully endorse.

Beardism must die! (I'm only 1/4 joking, it's rediculous that a man must be clean shaven to be professional, at least here on the west coast, it's also becoming a forgotten relic of the counter-counter-culture movement)

Edited by jerome1232
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Despite what many people think, I don't think following the Status Quo rules can be equated with humility (though it could be),

And not all rules should be followed.

Just as a quick example did Jesus refuse to heal people on the Sabbath?

 

What about an Ox in a mire?

Luke 14:5 "And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the Sabbath day?"

This isn't directly equivalent, but the principal is the same.

 

Rules do not correct behavior make.

 

 

It's still fine for BYU to choose to have this policy, it's the university's choice. Disagreement with the policy doesn't make people bad, just as it doesn't make people good to agree with it.

Edited by Crypto
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Despite what many people think, I don't think following the Status Quo rules can be equated with humility (though it could be),

And not all rules should be followed.

Just as a quick example did Jesus refuse to heal people on the Sabbath?

What about an Ox in a mire?

Luke 14:5 "And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the Sabbath day?"

This isn't directly equivalent, but the principal is the same.

Rules do not correct behavior make.

It's still fine for BYU to choose to have this policy, it's the university's choice. Disagreement with the policy doesn't make people bad, just as it doesn't make people good to agree with it.

I was thinking about our founding fathers as I read this. Good points.

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