Praise to the Man

[emi]

Am I the only one that has an issue with this hymn? I believe we should only give paise to God.

[pam]

I don't have a problem with this hymn at all.

[Silhouette]

I don't have a problem with it either. It's one of my favorite hymns. I've always thought that "praise" in this hymn was used in the sense that someone did something good, like: She praised her son for doing well on the test.

Never took it to mean worship, as in this sense: Let us praise God for His many blessings.

For me the word has two different connotations.

[PolarVortex]

I'm really glad you posted this question, because I've choked on this hymn for a long time, too.  (I am a convert.)

 

I think the problem is rooted in the many meaning of praise.  I just looked up the definition, and it has at least two meanings: (1) to express approval or admiration of, or (2) to offer grateful homage to as in words or song.

 

I think most people would say it's okay to express approval or admiration of Joseph Smith, but they'd be leery of offering homage to him.  And since we're talking about a hymn, meaning (2) seems to kick in here.

 

It would be nice if the words were Thanks to the man... instead, because thanks implies less worship than praise does.  But I can live with praise.

 

I actually have more problem with man, because it sounds as if only men can commune with Jehovah.  So maybe it should be Thanks to the one who communed...

[pam]

The song is about Joseph Smith..when it says Praise to the Man, it is referring to Joseph Smith.  It in no way is insinuating that only men can commune with Jehovah.

 

We can praise Joseph Smith for many things. We can praise him for seeking the truth. We can praise him for the restoration of the church. We can praise him for the translation of the Book of Mormon.  We can even praise him for staying so stalwart even when he was so brutally persecuted.

 

Is it the same kind of praise that we give to Christ or to God.  No it isn't.

[Jane_Doe]

Emi,

 

I understand your issue with this hymn (not one of my fave's either).  I really like the comments thus far about it, particularly PolarVortex's.  

 

One thing which keeps me from ripping my hair out about this song, is to remember that it was written for Joseph Smith's funeral.  It does "praise" him, in that it says good things about him (like a funeral song should).  It also says that Jesus anointed him, pointing out that Joseph was just a messenger.

 

Also, I don't just praise God for His wonders-- going "Oh yeah, good job God", but I WORSHIP Him for it-- such marvels and wonders which defy my very comprehension. 

Edited October 7, 2014 by Jane_Doe

[Silhouette]

As far as I understand the definition of the word "praise", there are at least two meanings:

1. Praise as in complimenting someone for a good job.

2. Praise as in worshipping God.

I've never taken this hymn to mean anything but the first, toward Joseph Smith. Just my opinion. It's never occurred to me to take the hymn the second way, and I respectfully disagree with those who do.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Silhouette

[PolarVortex]

The song is about Joseph Smith..when it says Praise to the Man, it is referring to Joseph Smith.  It in no way is insinuating that only men can commune with Jehovah.

 

 

Well then, by that logic, you wouldn't have any problem if the lyrics were Praise to the white man who communed with Jehovah?"  Or Praise to the American who communed with Jehovah?  Those highly offensive lyrics would not insinuate that only white men or Americans can commune with Jehovah, but their focus on one attribute of the Prophet could make some people feel excluded.

[classylady]

Sitting in the Conference Center during General Conference and listening to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir sing 'Praise to the Man' was inspirational. I loved it! The Spirit touched me, strengthening my testimony of Joseph Smith and his prophetic mission.

[pipeorgan]

Coming together as a congregation and singing praise sounds like worship to me. 

[pipeorgan]

If you read the entire text of the hymn, it is clearly worship.  To claim this kind of praise is the same kind of praise we give to our children if they do well on a test at school is absurd.   

 

"Kings shall extol him, and nations revere."

 

"Hail to the prophet, ascended to heaven!"

 

"Great is his glory and endless his priesthood."

 

"Mingling with Gods"

 

"Millions shall know 'Brother Joseph' again."

 

Sounds like worship to me... 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I think the problem is rooted in the many meaning of praise.  I just looked up the definition, and it has at least two meanings: (1) to express approval or admiration of, or (2) to offer grateful homage to as in words or song.

 

I think most people would say it's okay to express approval or admiration of Joseph Smith, but they'd be leery of offering homage to him.  And since we're talking about a hymn, meaning (2) seems to kick in here.

 

I'm glad you mentioned this.  I think #2 is perfect.  I looked up homage and google says "special honor or respect shown publicly" 

 

Then we add "in words or song"

 

And I think it sums up this hymn perfectly.

 

I can understand why some might be uncomfortable though because Merriam Webster says that praise means: 

1) to express a favorable judgment of

2) to glorify (a god or saint) especially by the attribution of perfections

 

So glorify seems very similar to "worship"...and we know we should only worship Heavenly Father.  At the same time though--since we are taught in the church that we should only worship Heavenly Father, then we should assume that praise in this hymn means express a favorable judgment of...

 

or to offer grateful homage (respect) in song

 

Either of those seems perfectly appropriate to me.

 

 

it was written for Joseph Smith's funeral.  It does "praise" him, in that it says good things about him (like a funeral song should).  It also says that Jesus anointed him, pointing out that Joseph was just a messenger.

 

Cool, I didn't know that about the funeral.  And I agree about "Jesus anointed him" being a very important part of the hymn.  

[RMGuy]

I refuse to sing it, but for a different reason. Here are the real lyrics:

High in the misty Highlands

Out by the purple islands,

Brave are the hearts that beat

Beneath Scottish skies.

Wild are the winds to meet you,

Staunch are the friends that greet you,

Kind as the love that shines from fair maidens' eyes.

Towering in gallant fame,

Scotland my mountain hame,

High may your proud standards gloriously wave,

Land of my high endeavour,

Land of the shining river,

Land of my heart for ever,

Scotland the brave.

Thousands hold that tune sacred. I view what we did to it as asking to someone parading around in temple robes on Saturday Night Live. Disgusting.

[Silhouette]

Personally, I've only ever taken the song the way I described in my previous posts, "absurd" though it may be in others' opinion. But then I like to look on the positive side of things.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Silhouette

[jerome1232]

I refuse to sing it, but for a different reason. Here are the real lyrics:

High in the misty Highlands

Out by the purple islands,

Brave are the hearts that beat

Beneath Scottish skies.

Wild are the winds to meet you,

Staunch are the friends that greet you,

Kind as the love that shines from fair maidens' eyes.

Towering in gallant fame,

Scotland my mountain hame,

High may your proud standards gloriously wave,

Land of my high endeavour,

Land of the shining river,

Land of my heart for ever,

Scotland the brave.

Thousands hold that tune sacred. I view what we did to it as asking to someone parading around in temple robes on Saturday Night Live. Disgusting.

 

That's almost as bad as Americans turning Britain's national anthem into a patriotic American song. Oh my. But seriously? One group revising a song in a respectful manner is disgusting? Are you attempting to be sarcastic and I'm just not catching it?

Edited October 7, 2014 by jerome1232

[RMGuy]

I'm not a fan of what we did to God save the Queen either.

Respectful to whom?

[pam]

Well then, by that logic, you wouldn't have any problem if the lyrics were Praise to the white man who communed with Jehovah?"  Or Praise to the American who communed with Jehovah?  Those highly offensive lyrics would not insinuate that only white men or Americans can commune with Jehovah, but their focus on one attribute of the Prophet could make some people feel excluded.

 

 

[Wingnut]

President Eyring actually addressed this topic in the Sunday morning session, immediately following the choir's singing of "Praise to the Man."  He talked about "hero worship" and what it actually means.  https://www.lds.org/general-conference/watch/2014/10?lang=eng&vid=3821978328001&cid=4 (Listen to the whole thing, but around 11:26 is when this specific topic starts.)

For me, a mission companion of mine gave the best answer I've ever heard as to why we talk about Joseph Smith so much (instead of Jesus, as many -- particularly outside the Church -- view it).  She said, "it's because of Joseph Smith that I know who Jesus Christ is."  I've never forgotten that, and I never will.

[pam]

  She said, "it's because of Joseph Smith that I know who Jesus Christ is."  I've never forgotten that, and I never will.

 

I love this.

[mordorbund]

I refuse to sing it, but for a different reason. Here are the real lyrics:

High in the misty Highlands

Out by the purple islands,

Brave are the hearts that beat

Beneath Scottish skies.

Wild are the winds to meet you,

Staunch are the friends that greet you,

Kind as the love that shines from fair maidens' eyes.

Towering in gallant fame,

Scotland my mountain hame,

High may your proud standards gloriously wave,

Land of my high endeavour,

Land of the shining river,

Land of my heart for ever,

Scotland the brave.

Thousands hold that tune sacred. I view what we did to it as asking to someone parading around in temple robes on Saturday Night Live. Disgusting.

 

 

That's almost as bad as Americans turning Britain's national anthem into a patriotic American song. Oh my. But seriously? One group revising a song in a respectful manner is disgusting? Are you attempting to be sarcastic and I'm just not catching it?

 

 

I'm not a fan of what we did to God save the Queen either.

Respectful to whom?

 

Why should the devil have all the good music?

[Just_A_Guy]

All I know is, I went to an evangelical Lutheran nursery school and distinctly remember singing "Joshua fit the battle of Jericho (and the walls came tumbling down)".  It seems to me we also sung a few spirituals about Moses; though I don't remember the lyrics or tune at present.

 

I don't think the problem is that we're honoring someone other than Jesus in a large gathering (what--Christian BSA troops never do Courts of Honor?  Christian students don't attend their school's commencement ceremonies?).  It's not even that we're doing it through song (Christians don't sing "Sweet Adeline" or "Oh My Darling Clementine" or any number of popular songs whose lyrics sing praises about, or directly to, a loved individual?). It's that the person being so honored is--saints preserve us!--the Mormon prophet. 

 

The first two lines of Praise to the Man make Joseph Smith's subordinate status to Jehovah/Jesus crystal clear; and everything else in that song is absolutely true. 

 

(Incidentally, hymn lyrics/tunes get borrowed and swapped around quite a lot.  "The Spirit of God", as sung at the Kirtland Temple Dedication, was merged with the tune we now use when singing "Now Let Us Rejoice".  And one of the problems with the popular tale about the Titanic's band playing "Nearer, My God, To Thee" as the ship sank is that Americans at the time typically played the hymn with one tune ("Bethany") while Britishers were familiar with a different tune ("Horbury").  Both Americans and Brits remembered hearing the hymn--and just to complicate things more, the Titanic's bandmaster was a Methodist; and Methodists have a third arrangement for the same hymn ("Propior Deo").  Cameron's 1997 movie uses Propior Deo; the 1958 British film A Night to Remember uses "Horbury", and the version in our hymnbook is "Bethany", in case you were wondering.  /geekery)

Edited October 7, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[classylady]

I see nothing wrong with praising Joseph Smith. I don't worship him. But, I do honor him. And, I am very grateful for his life, his example, his visions and revelations, and his teachings.

 

Using an existing tune is done all the time. One of my favorites is "Lord, Dismiss Us with Thy Blessing." I always want to start singing "Go tell Aunt Rhody, Go tell Aunt Rhody, Go tell Aunt Rhody, The old gray goose is dead."

[Wingnut]

Using an existing tune is done all the time. One of my favorites is "Lord, Dismiss Us with Thy Blessing." I always want to start singing "Go tell Aunt Rhody, Go tell Aunt Rhody, Go tell Aunt Rhody, The old gray goose is dead."

 

Thanks for that...it's all I'm going to hear now.  Lol!

But on the vein of interchangeable tunes, this was something I learned about either on my mission or shortly before, and I enjoy doing it from time to time.  A companion (the same one I mentioned earlier in this thread, in fact) and I used to really enjoy singing Joseph Smith's Prayer to the tune of In Humility Our Savior, since they've got the same meter.  I also found that it makes you actually listen to the words more closely.

[NeuroTypical]

If you read the entire text of the hymn, it is clearly worship.  

 

No, it isn't.

 

 

 

To claim this kind of praise is the same kind of praise we give to our children if they do well on a test at school is absurd.   

Well, maybe that's true.  But it is similar to praise given to pivotal members of humanity who depart.  Like Ronald Regan or Martin Luther King or a Pope, etc.

 

 

 

"Kings shall extol him, and nations revere."

"Hail to the prophet, ascended to heaven!"

"Great is his glory and endless his priesthood."

"Mingling with Gods"

"Millions shall know 'Brother Joseph' again."

Sounds like worship to me...

Honestly, it sounds like the problem here is with you not knowing what worship means.  

 

The extol and revere verse is pushing it a bit, granted.  But Singing a triumphant song about someone who was killed and taking comfort that he's in heaven, isn't worship.  Recognizing greatness isn't worship.  Heck, being great doesn't even mean someone was good.  Lucifer is great.  Speculating about the circumstances of the deceased isn't worship.  (It should be a lower case 'g' as in 'gods'.)  Acknowledging people will meet again in the next life isn't worship.

 

Many folks I've met who have pushed this criticism, seem to not know a lot about what they believe or why they believe it.

Edited October 7, 2014 by NeuroTypical

[jerome1232]

I don't really care what meaning you personally glean from one hymn we sing. We don't worship our prophets. We don't worship Joseph Smith Jr.

It's like telling a catholic that they worship their Saints, ask any catholic, they don't. It's just a popular lie, propaganda if you will, that certain people use to make us look bad.

Edited October 7, 2014 by jerome1232