Should we always be questioning?


pipeorgan
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There was no shaming going on. A reasonable question was asked.

You read a lot into that question that wasn't there. That speaks to your mindset, and not to what was asked.

My mindset is that I know a lot of people who feel shamed by remarks that insinuate that their belief is somehow less than. If you'll read my original post, I point out that he may have many nothing by it, I was simply telling him how it might be perceived. Thank you for the criticism, I'll keep it in mind in the future.

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It's not shaming to imply that one needs to gain a testimony by the Holy Ghost and that joining the church without doing so is problematic.

 

If one doesn't have a testimony by this means, one needs to go and get one by this means. And if one does not have a testimony by this means, then one's belief is, indeed, on rocky ground as compared to one who has a testimony by this means.

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It's not shaming to imply that one needs to gain a testimony by the Holy Ghost and that joining the church without doing so is problematic.

If one doesn't have a testimony by this means, one needs to go and get one by this means. And if one does not have a testimony by this means, then one's belief is, indeed, on rocky ground as compared to one who has a testimony by this means.

I disagree that it's problematic. I certainly didn't do that when I was eight. I believed, got baptized, and kept doing the things that gave me the spiritual experiences to fortify my faith. If he didn't do it, that's ok, so long as he keeps doing what he needs to do to gain those experiences. Ie. If he's not going to church, reading the scriptures, praying, then that's problematic.

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I disagree that it's problematic. I certainly didn't do that when I was eight. I believed, got baptized, and kept doing the things that gave me the spiritual experiences to fortify my faith. If he didn't do it, that's ok, so long as he keeps doing what he needs to do to gain those experiences. Ie. If he's not going to church, reading the scriptures, praying, then that's problematic.

 

Problematic does not necessarily mean catastrophic. It could be catastrophic. It is definitely problematic.

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I disagree that it's problematic.

 

Problematic does not necessarily mean catastrophic. It could be catastrophic. It is definitely problematic.

 

I, too, would prefer that a person gain a testimony of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. I also agree with paulsifer's points as well. But, pipeorgan, I noticed that you haven't commented since the thread tangent the direction it did, even though you've been on well since its tangent. Sometimes we get a little off track... too much technology made us impeccable multi-taskers. Perhaps so impeccable that we sometimes stray from the question of the person in need. ;) Forgive us.

 

I'm going to make some assumptions below, since this isn't a face-to-face conversation. Please, feel free to come on and correct me if needs be.

 

Pipeorgan, it is more ideal to have a testimony of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. However, you chose to join based on how the people live their lives and I think that's great! The gospel has a foot in the door in your life. The seed has been planted. :) We are actually encouraged to live this way so that others see the light we shine. That shining causes people to start asking the questions that build and nurture testimonies. So, ask away, and keep asking! You're doing the right thing by asking and trying to gain that testimony now (that is, assuming you don't have one already). Take courage in knowing that testimonies take time to grow and nurture. This is not a bad thing, as paulsifer points out. However, I agree with TFP that if you don't build/nurture it, it is problematic. That is, if you don't do you part to grow it (key caveat here). If I can be of any assistance, please, start threads and I for one will be happy to help out.

 

In the mean time, if I am right with my assumption, please take a look at Alma 32:20-43

 

 

20 Now of this thing ye must judge. Behold, I say unto you, that it is on the one hand even as it is on the other; and it shall be unto every man according to his work.

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

22 And now, behold, I say unto you, and I would that ye should remember, that God is merciful unto all who believe on his name; therefore he desireth, in the first place, that ye should believe, yea, even on his word.

23 And now, he imparteth his word by angels unto men, yea, not only men but women also. Now this is not all; little children do have words given unto them many times, which confound the wise and the learned.

24 And now, my beloved brethren, as ye have desired to know of me what ye shall do because ye are afflicted and cast out—now I do not desire that ye should suppose that I mean to judge you only according to that which is true—

25 For I do not mean that ye all of you have been compelled to humble yourselves; for I verily believe that there are some among you who would humble themselves, let them be in whatsoever circumstances they might.

26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.

27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.

32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?

36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.

37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.

38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.

39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.

40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.

41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.

42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.

43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you.

 

You spoke earlier of confirmation bias. I can relate. My training in psychology has brought unwelcomed concerns to my mind at times. But, please remember that confirmation bias requires opposing evidence. There will never be opposing evidence about Christ's true religion. That makes conf. bias null and void. As far as your concerns about being led astray by your emotions: again, I can relate. And I think a good many in the church with strong testimonies can relate as well. Still, I refer you to Alma's experiment quoted above. As that seed grows, your faith will be so strong you will no longer doubt. This will be because you feel the Holy Ghost bearing testimony.

 

Here is a talk I highly recommend as well:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2004/04/but-if-not?lang=eng

Edited by Urstadt
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Definitely? Can we agree it's possibly problematic?

 

Problematic implies possibly. So...sure...we can agree. How about definitely possibly problematic?

 

It's beyond the point though. No need to contend semantics. The point is, if one does not have a witness of the truthfulness of the gospel from the Holy Ghost...go get one!

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Problematic implies possibly. So...sure...we can agree. How about definitely possibly problematic?

 

It's beyond the point though. No need to contend semantics. The point is, if one does not have a witness of the truthfulness of the gospel from the Holy Ghost...go get one!

I agree......if am interviewing someone in my office and they are telling me or asking me questions about things related to the church....first question I am asking is....do you have a testimony or did you ever feel the spirit testifying to you ?? Why sit around answering questions when they don't have one. Once I find that out then I have a new approach to this person.

Anymore everyone wants to be offended at some thing.

Sorry not really ranting to you Folk Prophet. Lol

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I agree......if am interviewing someone in my office and they are telling me or asking me questions about things related to the church....first question I am asking is....do you have a testimony or did you ever feel the spirit testifying to you ?? Why sit around answering questions when they don't have one. Once I find that out then I have a new approach to this person.

Anymore everyone wants to be offended at some thing.

Sorry not really ranting to you Folk Prophet. Lol

 

Not sure how I'd take it as ranting when you're agreeing and supportive of my thoughts. :)

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Actually, I believe that I saw good in the church and its members BECAUSE of the holy spirit's guidance.  I understand that you guys may not have meant any harm in your questioning, but you might want to be a bit more careful while questioning the validity of someone's faith and choices.  It might rub someone the wrong way if not worded carefully.  

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The church was restored by a man and men are not perfect.  Do you believe that Joseph Smith's revelations as well as other prophet's should be under scrutiny?  

sure but you will want a firm foundation that you can come back to if you find yourself in waters that are too deep (IE get your testimony first). Be aware that prophets only share what they are told to share.

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Actually, I believe that I saw good in the church and its members BECAUSE of the holy spirit's guidance.  I understand that you guys may not have meant any harm in your questioning, but you might want to be a bit more careful while questioning the validity of someone's faith and choices.  It might rub someone the wrong way if not worded carefully.  

 

It wouldn't be hard to convince me to believe the Spirit helped you see the good in the church and its members also.  why have you continued going to church?

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...questioning the validity of someone's faith and choices...

 

But no one did this. The question was simply asked if you received a witness from the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon was true. It's a yes/no question. It has nothing to do with validity of choices and faith.

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I understand that you guys may not have meant any harm in your questioning, but you might want to be a bit more careful while questioning the validity of someone's faith and choices. It might rub someone the wrong way if not worded carefully.

I completely agree with you, pipeorgan. I sincerely was trying to be mindful of how I came across to you. But, I do need to be mindful that everyone has different communication styles. If I rubbed you the wrong way, or said something that could have been taken the wrong way, then I sincerely apologize. :)

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