Official church resources for those who have doubts?

[estradling75]

It is when we deify those prophets that we set ourselves up for disappointment.  We forget that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and others are just men, with all the flaws, and weaknesses men are subject to.  They were no better than us, and by our modern perceptions, maybe in some cases not nice men at all.  That doesn't negate the fact that they were prophets, and called of God to serve in the capacity that God had defined for them.

 

The calling of prophet, is not a calling of perfection.  They are still subject to the command of Jesus "be ye therefore perfect, even as my father".  They individually have lots of work to do, just like all of us.

 

If you think we are "deify" or engaging in "Prophet Worship" you really need to pay more attention to what is being posted.

 

We aren't.  We however see a big difference in acknowledging their flaws versus assassinating their character.  It is the later that is getting the strong push back 

[mdfxdb]

I see no character assassination going on.  I see inquiry, and someone trying to point out that while prophets are prophets, they are not infallible.

 

There is enough true "bad" stuff about some of our early church leaders that we do not need to engage in character assassination.

 

As far as prophet worship?  Well that might be something for another thread.  Maybe we don't worship our prophets, but we definitely put them on a pedestal which I think Joseph Smith himself would deem to be unseemly.

[The Folk Prophet]

The flaws of men are irrelevant.  God has called many flawed men to serve.  Maybe even some men who had a drinking problem (Noah).......

 

They are not irrelevant. That our leaders are and were righteous (in spite of imperfections) is of profound importance.

 

It doesn't matter that Brigham Young had a drinking problem (or not).  

 

It most certainly matters. A drunken man cannot possibly be led by the spirit. That Brigham Young was led by the spirit matters very, very much.

 

The testimony you build cannot be based on a man's spirituality, perceived righteousness, etc, etc.  

 

No...the testimony I have that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were prophets is very definitely tied to my perception of their righteousness. If they were wicked men, they could not also be prophets. It is absolutely and entirely incorrect to approach things this way. God does not, and cannot, reveal himself to someone steeped in the devil's ways. It is only through righteousness that a prophet can lead us. Prophets are righteous or they are not prophets!

 

I don't understand how this fundamental idea is being missed. God does not work through sinful, evil, wicked men. There is a whole, wide gulf of difference between imperfection and wickedness.

 

Because at the end of the day prophets, and members alike, all have to put on their pants one leg at a time. 

 

And all of us, prophets and members alike, must be worthy to receive the companionship and guidance of the Holy Ghost.

 

It is when we deify those prophets that we set ourselves up for disappointment. 

 

It is not deification to believe that prophets are righteous. Using terms like that twists things...I suppose to suit some agenda. I'm not even sure what that agenda is, but it's not helpful.

 

We forget that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and others are just men, with all the flaws, and weaknesses men are subject to.  They were no better than us,

 

Oh yes they were. It is the distinct standard of God that he reveals himself to those who have qualified themselves thus. He does not reveal himself to anyone, despite their standing, despite their wickedness, despite anything. We are not all on the same footing. That is false.

 

I have no delusions that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and all the prophets before and after them, were better men than me. I only hope to become such a man someday.

 

That doesn't negate the fact that they were prophets, and called of God to serve in the capacity that God had defined for them.

 

It does and it would. Wickedness would, without any doubt, negate their ability to lead, and their status as prophets, seers, and revelators. Absolutely, without any question, such wickedness, were it real, would have destroyed their ability to lead the church.

 

The calling of prophet, is not a calling of perfection. 

 

Once again, there is a big difference between not being perfect and being a sex-crazed, drunken, wrath-monster. A prophet doesn't need to be perfect. But the idea that one can be steeped in serious sin and still be a viable prophet...no way, no how.

Edited October 15, 2014 by The Folk Prophet

[Urstadt]

We however see a big difference in acknowledging their flaws versus assassinating their character. It is the later that is getting the strong push back.

I hope no one felt this way about my posts. Either way, I should always be mindful of how I am speaking about the Lord's annointed.

Thank you for the reminder, estradling75. :)

Edited October 15, 2014 by Urstadt

[mdfxdb]

- I agree that our leaders were, and are righteous, but not perfectly so, as you seem to believe.  They need to repent of their follies, and sins just as we do.  Mosiah 27:8.  Alma the younger was "wicked".  Nevertheless he repented, and became a powerful prophet.  Did he instantly become perfect?  I doubt it.  

- Was Brigham Young led by the spirit.  I believe he was.  Did the spirit reside with him at all times in all instances.  Probably not.  it has been opined on this thread that a drunken man cannot possibly be led by the spirit.  Even if he wasn't drunk, it is unreasonable to believe that he was guided by the spirit 100% of the time because that would imply he was 100% righteous and worthy 100% of the time.  That would be impossible for a mortal to accomplish.  I believe only one individual has been able to accomplish that feat.

 

-Having a drink (Joseph, Brigham, Joseph Sr.) does not steep them in the devils ways.... ridiculous.

 

- Gods plans are accomplished in many ways by wicked men.  WWI, WWII, unrest in the middle east.  

 

- Gods plans are also accomplished in very very important ways by righteous (imperfect), but righteous men.  

 

- Deification is used not to promote an agenda, but to illustrate how many feel our prophets are infallible.  Even in these the latter days our prophets have been reprimanded, and excommunicated (quorum of the 12).    

 

- The belief that we cannot become as our prophets is flawed.  We are individually all empowered with the same priesthood that they hold.  We are entitled to the same confirmations, visitations, spiritual experiences as they.  We are limited by our unworthiness, just like they are. 

[estradling75]

- I agree that our leaders were, and are righteous, but not perfectly so, as you seem to believe.  They need to repent of their follies, and sins just as we do.  Mosiah 27:8.  Alma the younger was "wicked".  Nevertheless he repented, and became a powerful prophet.  Did he instantly become perfect?  I doubt it.  

- Was Brigham Young led by the spirit.  I believe he was.  Did the spirit reside with him at all times in all instances.  Probably not.  it has been opined on this thread that a drunken man cannot possibly be led by the spirit.  Even if he wasn't drunk, it is unreasonable to believe that he was guided by the spirit 100% of the time because that would imply he was 100% righteous and worthy 100% of the time.  That would be impossible for a mortal to accomplish.  I believe only one individual has been able to accomplish that feat.

 

-Having a drink (Joseph, Brigham, Joseph Sr.) does not steep them in the devils ways.... ridiculous.

 

- Gods plans are accomplished in many ways by wicked men.  WWI, WWII, unrest in the middle east.  

 

- Gods plans are also accomplished in very very important ways by righteous (imperfect), but righteous men.  

 

- Deification is used not to promote an agenda, but to illustrate how many feel our prophets are infallible.  Even in these the latter days our prophets have been reprimanded, and excommunicated (quorum of the 12).    

 

- The belief that we cannot become as our prophets is flawed.  We are individually all empowered with the same priesthood that they hold.  We are entitled to the same confirmations, visitations, spiritual experiences as they.  We are limited by our unworthiness, just like they are. 

 

 

You are making lots of accusations here mdfxdb.  And I am going to demand that you prove one.

 

- I agree that our leaders were, and are righteous, but not perfectly so, as you seem to believe.

 

Prove the bolded, underlined part.  Quote anyone in this thread that says that they believe the leaders are "Perfectly Righteous" Or otherwise perfect.  Just one quote please...  When you fail (and you will) then realize you are reading more into people statements then they are really saying.

 

[The Folk Prophet]

- I agree that our leaders were, and are righteous, but not perfectly so, as you seem to believe.  

 

Show me where I said perfectly.

 

 

-Having a drink (Joseph, Brigham, Joseph Sr.) does not steep them in the devils ways.... ridiculous. 

 

It was stated that Brigham was an alcoholic.

 

- Gods plans are accomplished in many ways by wicked men.  WWI, WWII, unrest in the middle east.  

 

But His church is not and cannot be led by wicked men.

 

- Deification is used not to promote an agenda, but to illustrate how many feel our prophets are infallible.  Even in these the latter days our prophets have been reprimanded, and excommunicated (quorum of the 12).  

 

I have never seen anything anywhere by anyone, and certainly not in this thread, stating that our prophets are infallible. This is a liberal interpretation of things that do not actually exist, nor have they ever existed. There is, flatly, no grand view held by the church members that prophets are perfect. I mean, sure, you may get some gullible, non-thinking simpleton here and there that may sort of view it that way. My guess is, however, that were a church-wide poll taken as to the perfection of prophets, that it would fall to pretty near 100% of the members saying "no".

 

Now what you will see are statements and beliefs that the church, itself, is led by God's will, and that it will not fall, will not go astray, will never be taken from the earth, etc., etc... You, and others of the same mind, take these beliefs, which are scriptural, concrete, and doctrinal, and read into it a general believe that there's a problem with people deifying prophets. But they aren't.

 

And had Brigham been excommunicated, yes...then I would accept that he was involved in wickedness. In point of fact, had he become wicked, he would and should have been excommunicated. But he also wouldn't have been considered the prophet anymore, which goes to my point. But he was not excommunicated, because he was not wicked, and he remained the prophet in good standing with the Lord accordingly.

 

- The belief that we cannot become as our prophets is flawed.  We are individually all empowered with the same priesthood that they hold.  We are entitled to the same confirmations, visitations, spiritual experiences as they.  We are limited by our unworthiness, just like they are. 

 

Um, I said...and I quote..."I only hope to become such a man someday." How could I hope to become such a man someday if I believed that we cannot become as our prophets? An odd interpretation of my words.

Edited October 15, 2014 by The Folk Prophet

[Maureen]

omega, I'm not convinced by your interpretation of JofD 10:206 that that proves Brigham Young was an alcoholic.

 

In JofD 10:300, Brigham Young also says:

 

 

We had better labor to produce and treasure up the golden wheat, the fine flour, the pure wine, the oil of the olive, and every product for food and clothing that is adapted to our climate.

 

I anticipate the day when we can have the privilege of using, at our sacraments pure wine, produced within our borders. I do not know that it would injure us to drink wine of our own make, although we would be better without it than to drink it to excess...

 

M.

[omegaseamaster75]

In Young v. Young, Ann Eliza Webb Young sued Brigham Young for divorce in 1873, claiming neglect, cruel treatment, and desertion (CHC 5:442-43). ...Claiming that Young was worth $8 million and had a monthly income of $40,000, she asked for $1,000 per month pending the trial, a total of $20,000 for counsel fees, and $200,000 for her maintenance. Brigham Young denied her charges and claimed to have a worth of only $600,000 and a monthly income of $6,000. More fundamentally, he pointed out the inconsistency of granting a divorce and alimony for a marriage that was not legally recognized." (Zion in the Courts-A Legal History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1830-1900 by Firmage and Mangrum, 1988, Univ. of Ill. Press, p.249)

 

One of his many divorces, refusal to pay alimony? What an upstanding guy...

[Maureen]

Brigham Young had many faults, but I'm not sure that alcoholism was one of them.

 

M.

[omegaseamaster75]

Brigham Young had many faults, but I'm not sure that alcoholism was one of them.

 

M.

It is my suspicion that he did drink to excess frequently, my opinion only. He was divorced 10 times......not what you would expect from a prophet of God.

[Suzie]

Brigham Young was divorced 10 times. your right alcoholism does rip apart families and destroys lives.

 

Well, to be perfectly honest, the rate of divorce of LDS polygamous marriages was high. During his Presidency alone, he granted over 1,600 divorces. So clearly, Young wasn't the exception. If we believe in Michael Quinn’s assertions, he stated that out of 72 General Authorities who lived polygamous marriages, 39 of them were involved in broken marriages, including 54 divorces, 26 separations and one annulment.

 

It is interesting to notice that Young always discouraged divorce for men in particular but with women, he had a softer approach. He stated several times that if a woman was not happy after trying to live with her husband, she could seek a divorce and move on.

[Just_A_Guy]

Though there may be a certain causality between having multiple wives and developing alcoholism . . .

(I know. Bad JAG. Bad JAG!!!)

Edited October 16, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[Urstadt]

And, the truth is President Young doesn't have to answer to us. There are so, so, so, many more important things on this planet and in our lives to worry about that how a man lived his life 160+ years ago.

[estradling75]

And, the truth is President Young doesn't have to answer to us. There are so, so, so, many more important things on this planet and in our lives to worry about that how a man lived his life 160+ years ago.

 

Like how we choose to exercise Christ-like love and charity toward all... Including those that lived 160+ years ago.

[Guest]

Somebody asks the question where to find resources for those who have doubts...

 

Pages and pages of debate on the sins of prophets resulted... all posted by members of the church.

 

If I was somebody who had serious doubts, I'd be... uhm... done with doubts.  I'd be convinced this is a whacked up church.

 

But, that's just me.

Edited October 16, 2014 by anatess

[jerome1232]

Correction, pages of omgasa-something-or-the-other making bogus accusations citing bogus sources.

Like this:

Mormons don't celebrate Christmas - John 3:15

[The Folk Prophet]

Mormons don't celebrate Christmas - John 3:15

 

Whoa.

 

Mind...

 

...blown.

[jerome1232]

Whoa.

Mind...

...blown.

An anonymous mission president and a former bishop once told me righteous minds cannot blown.

[mdfxdb]

I think in our throwing around accusations, and apologizing for misdeeds, or perceived misdeeds we have strayed from the point.  Which is that prophets are imperfect men.  Men just like most of us, subject to temptation, and weakness.  What makes them different is that they can overcome those temptations, they are called of God, and the behavior of the individuals in no way negates the truthfulness of the church of God.

 

Let's be honest, by today's standards most of our early prophets would not even be allowed to have a temple recommend (word of wisdom nonsense).....

[omegaseamaster75]

I will state right now that ALL of our prophets were righteous men I truly believe that to be true. I also think that they led the church to the best of their ability under the guidance of Jesus Christ.

 

My personal opinions are not relevant to any discussion about the Prophets past or present. I retract any statement that may have been accusatory or slanderous in nature.

 

Thank you, 

 

Omega

[mdfxdb]

wow Omega........

 

Big turn around?   

 

I never doubted that you were a believer.

 

I always felt you were trying to point out the human side of our leaders.  The fact that they were not perfect, and had the ability to sin just like us "normals"  who put our pants on one leg at a time, rather than levitate into them..

[The Folk Prophet]

An anonymous mission president and a former bishop once told me righteous minds cannot blown.

 

Wait...I feel....insulted....

 

[omegaseamaster75]

Correction, pages of omgasa-something-or-the-other making bogus accusations citing bogus sources.

Like this:

Mormons don't celebrate Christmas - John 3:15

prove I ever stated that Mormons didn't celebrate x-mas

[estradling75]

wow Omega........

 

Big turn around?   

 

I never doubted that you were a believer.

 

I always felt you were trying to point out the human side of our leaders.  The fact that they were not perfect, and had the ability to sin just like us "normals"  who put our pants on one leg at a time, rather than levitate into them..

 

 

There is a bit of a difference...  Lets personalize it a bit...  If I were to say mdfxdb was a flawed, imperfect man, who sinned.  Well you would probably be a bit stung by it and wonder if I had something against you, but we would generally accept the claims because we all are in the same category of flawed sinners.

 

However if I were to make the claim that mdfxdb was a alcoholic, adulterer, and racist to boot.  Well those are fighting words.  You would be well within your Right to demand I prove such things or be guilty of slander (or maybe its libel I am a bit vague on how those work with posts on the Internet).   You would have every reason to expect that I had some kind of hostile motive toward you and that I wasn't trying humanize you or make you accessible to the masses.  You would more likely assume I was trying to alienate everyone else from you.