Houston mayor bullying Christian pastors over sermons on homosexuality


carlimac
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I would be mildly surprised if this went all the way back to the mayor. I suspect this is just some over-eager pup in the City Attorney's office engaging in routine litigation-discovery ratbaggery; perhaps acting on a kernel of good-faith concern that some campaign finance laws have been violated.

But, we shall see.

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My concern is the slippery slope.  I know it's a logical fallacy.  Nevertheless, in light of the cultural shifts we see in society, I cannot help but think that what is outrageous today will be controversial tomorrow, will be somewhat aggressive next week, and will be standard operating procedure in the near future.  The most aggressive LBGT activists have publically said that when religious liberty contrasts with "human rights" the latter wins every time, in their book.  That the question is even raised tells me that for some, there is a contrast--and they intend to vanquish, rather than co-exist.

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This is like something out of Orwell's "Animal Farm," and I wonder if the recent news reports aren't sensationalizing parts of this story.  My understanding is that churches are perfectly free to agitate for or against laws and proposed legislation, as long as they don't touch specific candidates or elected officials.

 

If the city of Provo tried to subpoena every sermon that advocated same-sex marriage, the ACLU would drop out of the sky like the spacecraft in the movie "Independence Day."  So I'm sure the ACLU will rush into Houston, too.

 

I think some of those Houston churches should manufacture a sermon with the exact words of President Obama from the 2008 campaign, when his views against same-sex marriages were pretty mainstream.  If the city of Houston exposes such a sermon as bigoted, we'll know how low we have sunk.

 

Antidiscrimination laws to protect gays and lesbians seem sensible, but maybe we should start thinking about antidiscrimination laws to protect people who peacefully oppose same-sex marriage.  And I'm sympathetic to many parts of the argument for same-sex marriage.

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Here is more of the back story on this:  

 

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/10/15/a-witch-hunt-houston-govt-subpoenas-pastors-sermons-as-battle-over-equal-rights-ordinance-heats-up/

 

Sounds like she was pretty well appraised of what the city attorneys were up to. 

 

 

I don't know a whole lot about the ACLU except that I get the impression they think they're "all that".   But I would guess they have a bit of a conflict of interest in this case. What a mess!

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I agree, by the way that the pastors shouldn't be preaching directly against the mayor using her name. But do we quit teaching about the word of wisdom simply because some of our elected officials have a drinking problem? Or do we shush about morality because someone in the local govt. had an affair?     

 

This is a no-brainer in my opinion. I can't see it this subpoena going very far although the article says the city has no intention of retracting it.

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The mayor appears to be backing away from the subpoena.  http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/10/15/houston-mayor-criticizes-city-lawyers-subpoenas-of-sermons/

 

Still, the analysis suggests that sermons/homilies/religious talks are not, in and of themselves, protected from such inquiries.  Where the lawyers are being criticized is in the broadness of their demands.  This is still ominous.

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If the city council desires to be privy to the contents of my sermons, I will save them a seat on the front row every week.

 

[in ominous Big Brother monotone] Our agents are there.  However, we'd much prefer you send us your notes in advance, notorized, and that you be prepared to adjust your final presentation in accordance with our community-sensitive enhancements to your rhetoric.

 

Remember...we're here to help. 

 

bigbrother.JPG

Edited by prisonchaplain
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I'm not sure which is worse that or the bathroom law there:

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/politics/houston/article/Equal-rights-law-opponents-deliver-signatures-5599272.php

 

The ordinance applies to businesses that serve the public, private employers, housing, city employment and city contracting. Religious institutions are exempt. Violators can be fined up to $5,000.

Again Thursday, Miller referenced opponents' central bugaboo regarding the ordinance, the perceived threat of male sexual predators dressed in drag entering women's restrooms, saying, "We're standing up to protect our women and our children." Foes have dubbed the measure the "Sexual Predator Protection Act."

The ordinance protects transgender residents' ability to use the restroom consistent with their gender expression, regardless of their biological sex, but puts the onus on the individual to prove he or she was a victim of discrimination.

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I agree, by the way that the pastors shouldn't be preaching directly against the mayor using her name.

 

I'm actually okay with it; I wish churches would get more involved.  If it weren't for the churches proclaiming fire and brimestone against the redcoats I don't think there would be a U.S.A today.

 

The reason why churches got out of politics is simply because of taxes.  Once the 16th Amendment was passed, it opened the door for the Federal Gov. to regulate anything that takes in money.  In order to maintain Tax Exempt status churches are not allowed to speak out against political individuals.  It is a way to get churches to curb their 1st amendment rights without taking them away.  Put a big enough carrot out and they will bite.

Edited by yjacket
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So why do they need the subpoena? I'm reading now the mayor never approved them.

As I understand it, a group of citizens is suing to stop enforcement of the law. They are now in a pre-litigation stage called "discovery". It is normal, at this stage, for subpoenas to fly all over the place to anyone who might have some pertinent information; and if the recipient thinks the sender is overreaching he can file a "motion to quash" asking the court to rule that they can ignore the subpoena.

As I stated earlier, I suspect the city was trying to figure out who's funding/driving the lawsuit and perhaps sniff out some 501 ( c) issues they can pass on to the IRS to put the group on the defensive generally--but not necessarily intimidate religious conservatives per se. It looks like some hapless pro bono attorney is now indeed being thrown under the bus for this--the question is whether he will be willing to take the fall or if he's going to rat out some higher-ups.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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The Mayor approved having lawyers defend her city, which threw out a 60K delivery of signatures to repeal the new ordinance (they needed 18K).  She may not have approved of the details of this expedition to prove the signature gatherers failed to submit forms done correctly, and that they knew they had a problem.  However, it's her office, and there is no love lost between her office and the socially conservative religious community.  Ergo, suspicions and politics will reign.

So why do they need the subpoena? I'm reading now the mayor never approved them.

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As an update, Houston pastors insist that the Mayor was behind these subpoenas, and that the attempt was deliberate intimidation--perhaps to run the clock out, or simply wear out the opponents of the Houston Equal Rights Ordinance (HERO...aka 'the Bathroom Bill').

 

http://www.christianpost.com/news/houston-mayor-initiated-subpoenas-of-pastors-sermons-notes-to-congregations-despite-recent-back-peddling-says-pastor-at-center-of-battle-128147/

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[in ominous Big Brother monotone] Our agents are there.  However, we'd much prefer you send us your notes in advance, notorized, and that you be prepared to adjust your final presentation in accordance with our community-sensitive enhancements to your rhetoric.

 

Remember...we're here to help. 

 

bigbrother.JPG

 

 

Mayor: PC, I know you say you were compliant but the sermons you faxed my office are complete gibberish.

PrisonChaplain: Not gibberish, tongues. If you had been there you would understand.

Mayor:....

PC: Maybe next week then? If you don't want to come to the chapel, I can always visit you at other venues.

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As an update, Houston pastors insist that the Mayor was behind these subpoenas, and that the attempt was deliberate intimidation--perhaps to run the clock out, or simply wear out the opponents of the Houston Equal Rights Ordinance (HERO...aka 'the Bathroom Bill').

 

http://www.christianpost.com/news/houston-mayor-initiated-subpoenas-of-pastors-sermons-notes-to-congregations-despite-recent-back-peddling-says-pastor-at-center-of-battle-128147/

 

With all due respect to the pastors . . . I want to see some evidence beyond the "everyone-knows-this-is-the-kind-of-thing-she'd-do" line that the pastor seems to be repeating.

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JAG, I get you.  And, of course, it would be nearly impossible to determine concretely whether the pro-bono attorneys were rogues, that took it upon themselves to willy nilly, issue such broad, over-the-top suppoenas.  The Mayor's office, and the city attorney, would have us believe such.  I have not taken one pre-law course, much less earned a degree.  Yet, I would never have issued such a draconian subpoena.  But, maybe it's just that I don't realize how much power city government has--that I could indeed do such a thing?

 

Those inclined to believe the mayor, and her city attorney, would point out that even if they truly exercised no oversight, and totally trusted their free attorney volunteers, that they then threw them under the bus, blaming them for the over-broad subpoenas.  Nice.

 

Less trusting folk suggest that they knew what they were doing and directed the subpoenas, hoping to delay and intimidate the opposition, and only pulled back when the push back proved too strong.

 

http://spectator.org/blog/60677/houston-mayor-totally-didnt-mean-subpoena-thing-you-guys

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JAG, I get you.  And, of course, it would be nearly impossible to determine concretely whether the pro-bono attorneys were rogues, that took it upon themselves to willy nilly, issue such broad, over-the-top suppoenas.  The Mayor's office, and the city attorney, would have us believe such.  I have not taken one pre-law course, much less earned a degree.  Yet, I would never have issued such a draconian subpoena.  But, maybe it's just that I don't realize how much power city government has--that I could indeed do such a thing?

 

Those inclined to believe the mayor, and her city attorney, would point out that even if they truly exercised no oversight, and totally trusted their free attorney volunteers, that they then threw them under the bus, blaming them for the over-broad subpoenas.  Nice.

 

Less trusting folk suggest that they knew what they were doing and directed the subpoenas, hoping to delay and intimidate the opposition, and only pulled back when the push back proved too strong.

 

http://spectator.org/blog/60677/houston-mayor-totally-didnt-mean-subpoena-thing-you-guys

 

Just as a case in point - I would think that any minister would want to make known and very clear - exactly what it is they are teaching and preaching.  Asking that they submit their sermons should not in my mind be a problem and I would think them glad to do so for anyone interested regardless of the reason.  Someone else writing their sermon for them - that I see as a problem.

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All I can say is good luck to try to get all the 'sermons' from the LDS congregations.  We have a lay clergy and our members give our talks!

 

Particularly from members like me who speak off the cuff and can't remember what they said five minutes later.

 

"I said what?!"  :eek:

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Particularly from members like me who speak off the cuff and can't remember what they said five minutes later.

 

"I said what?!"  :eek:

 

In general I believe the saints should be prepared and thoughtful when speaking at church and refrain from speaking off the cuff.  this is assuming that - at least for me - there is a big difference in being directed by the spirit and speaking off the cuff or just rambling.

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