What will those in the bottom two kingdoms do after it is all over and done?

[The Folk Prophet]

Here's some other scriptures on the matter:

 

Alma 34

32  For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

 

 33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

 

 

Alma 42

1 ...for ye do try to suppose that it is injustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery.

 

10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.

 

13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

 

 

 22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

 

 23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice

 

 25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

 

 

 28 If he has desired to do evil, and has not repented in his days, behold, evil shall be done unto him, according to the restoration of God.

 

Alma 41

10 Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.

 

15 For that which ye do send out shall return unto you again, and be restored; therefore, the word restoration more fully condemneth the sinner, and justifieth him not at all.

 

Alma 20

17 But Ammon stood forth and said unto him: Behold, thou shalt not slay thy son; nevertheless, it were better that he should fall than thee, for behold, he has repented of his sins; but if thou shouldst fall at this time, in thine anger, thy soul could not be saved.

 

 

Mosiah 2

 33 For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge.

 

 38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

 

 39 And now I say unto you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a never-ending torment.

 

 41 And moreover, I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven, that thereby they may dwell with God in a state of never-ending happiness. O remember, remember that these things are true; for the Lord God hath spoken it.

Edited November 21, 2014 by The Folk Prophet

[Traveler]

 

Here's some other scriptures on the matter:

 

Alma 34

32  For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

 

 33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

 

 

Alma 42

1 ...for ye do try to suppose that it is injustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery.

 

10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.

 

13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

 

 

 22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

 

 23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice

 

 25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

 

 

 28 If he has desired to do evil, and has not repented in his days, behold, evil shall be done unto him, according to the restoration of God.

 

Alma 41

10 Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.

 

15 For that which ye do send out shall return unto you again, and be restored; therefore, the word restoration more fully condemneth the sinner, and justifieth him not at all.

 

Alma 20

17 But Ammon stood forth and said unto him: Behold, thou shalt not slay thy son; nevertheless, it were better that he should fall than thee, for behold, he has repented of his sins; but if thou shouldst fall at this time, in thine anger, thy soul could not be saved.

 

 

Mosiah 2

 33 For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge.

 

 38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

 

 39 And now I say unto you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a never-ending torment.

 

 41 And moreover, I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven, that thereby they may dwell with God in a state of never-ending happiness. O remember, remember that these things are true; for the Lord God hath spoken it.

 

 

I would point out that in noting that you have quoted is the indication that should a person have a change of heart and repent - even having been cast out; that they would be denied.  Though there is no resulting difference between cannot and will not there is a very real difference in the heart of the matter and who is responsible for what.  With the concept of will not the result is because of agency and a choice to do not.  But with the idea of cannot is the idea of no choice or agency in the matter.  It is because of the doctrine of agency and my belief in choice that I have come to believe that our entering into an eternal kingdom is a matter a agency and choice and not the agency and choice of anyone or anything else.

 

A point of no return - I believe to be a matter of will not and not a matter of can not.  The warning is that we become what we are becoming.  There is no reason to assume we will ever choose something that we never choose.  Not because the time will come that we cannot but we will not.  The entire argument of progression between kingdoms is based in this simple principle of will not verses cannot.  It is dependent on a question that when someone made and choice and exercised their agency that they really did not know or understand - thus their choice was not an actual exercise of agency.   Thus they change their mind because of discovered information that was previously held from them.

 

Though I believe if someone could repent if they would - I do not believe that there will be such changes of heart.  So it is a case of will not and not a case of cannot.

[The Folk Prophet]

I would point out that in noting that you have quoted is the indication that should a person have a change of heart and repent - even having been cast out; that they would be denied.  Though there is no resulting difference between cannot and will not there is a very real difference in the heart of the matter and who is responsible for what.  With the concept of will not the result is because of agency and a choice to do not.  But with the idea of cannot is the idea of no choice or agency in the matter.  It is because of the doctrine of agency and my belief in choice that I have come to believe that our entering into an eternal kingdom is a matter a agency and choice and not the agency and choice of anyone or anything else.

 

A point of no return - I believe to be a matter of will not and not a matter of can not.  The warning is that we become what we are becoming.  There is no reason to assume we will ever choose something that we never choose.  Not because the time will come that we cannot but we will not.  The entire argument of progression between kingdoms is based in this simple principle of will not verses cannot.  It is dependent on a question that when someone made and choice and exercised their agency that they really did not know or understand - thus their choice was not an actual exercise of agency.   Thus they change their mind because of discovered information that was previously held from them.

 

Though I believe if someone could repent if they would - I do not believe that there will be such changes of heart.  So it is a case of will not and not a case of cannot.

 

These scriptures could not be more plain. You can wrest them all you want. But they are plain. Frankly, as you clearly cannot see the plainness of this in them, it's pretty pointless to continue discussing it with you. On the upside, if either you or I are dead wrong on our understanding it won't matter a whit to our salvation as long as we have been faithful in this life. I suppose it might make a difference if at some point you determined to save said repentance for post mortality. Regardless I don't feel particularly obligated to try and convince you. Knowing you fairly well from your posts, I don't expect your philosophy is to justify sin. I do have a modicum of concern that philosophies such as yours as read by lesser minds could very well be used to justify sinning, but I have posted the plain scriptures in response, and what more can I do?

 

And I am not interested in the least in just debating for the fun of it, as I do not find it fun. You can do that with SemSnoozer if you're so inclined.

[theSQUIDSTER]

I'd be interested to see a quote, scripture, or otherwise that says those in the Telestial kingdom will be happy.

 

Does glory or do degrees of glory other than the highest degree of the celestial kingdom have "happy" souls inhabiting them?

 

If by "happy" you mean do they have a "fullness of joy" .. then no.. By my understanding we have to be in the presence of God to have that.  I guess anywhere else is not a "happy" place by that definition.  Is this what you mean by "happy?"  By that definition nobody except those at the pinnacle of all glory can be happy... 

But perhaps I'm not understanding what you're saying...  I think most people, even most LDS use the term a little more broadly than that.  Even the term "joy" is used more broadly than that...  "Fullness of joy" seems pretty locked-in though.. if that's what you mean by "happy."

 

One other thing about people progressing and wishing they could be somewhere else... I find it difficult to believe that by the time the final judgement rolls around that there will be people filing appeals... As has been stated "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess" that Jesus is the Christ.  I don't think anybody who inherits a degree of glory will have to be forced to their knees.  I believe ALL beings of whatever glory will be willing and happy to kneel.  Am I wrong on this?

[Joyful]

These scriptures could not be more plain. You can wrest them all you want. But they are plain. Frankly, as you clearly cannot see the plainness of this in them, it's pretty pointless to continue discussing it with you. On the upside, if either you or I are dead wrong on our understanding it won't matter a whit to our salvation as long as we have been faithful in this life. I suppose it might make a difference if at some point you determined to save said repentance for post mortality. Regardless I don't feel particularly obligated to try and convince you. Knowing you fairly well from your posts, I don't expect your philosophy is to justify sin. I do have a modicum of concern that philosophies such as yours as read by lesser minds could very well be used to justify sinning, but I have posted the plain scriptures in response, and what more can I do?

 

And I am not interested in the least in just debating for the fun of it, as I do not find it fun. You can do that with SemSnoozer if you're so inclined.

 

As I was reading through the posts and speculations, I started to get the feeling that this life wasn't so dire after all. I can see how easy it is to take a single scripture and take it out context, even from the Book of Mormon! However, I remembered those scriptures you quoted from Alma, and our time on earth is critical, and with eternal consequences. We could forever speculate, and subtly be lead into a false sense of security. I appreciate your post. Perhaps, I am one of the lesser minds.

[Seminarysnoozer]

We know that variety is not a result of the Fall because all things were created spiritually before they were created physically and were placed on this earth far before Adam and Eve fell. From my understanding life on this earth will die but life being first made spiritually is Eternal and won't be destroyed but perfected, which I assume means something other then a Douglas Fir becoming a Palm Tree or vice versa.

 

 

From the C.S. Lewis quote and again from the article on the Eternal Principles of Goverment - 

"All these principles of liberty flow together toward two preeminent principles—a harmony of the one and the many, with man’s god-like individuality on the one hand and his natural, uncoerced communality on the other. These two principles provide at once the origin and the apex of all other governmental principles."

 

The reason this is important is that it points to the way we will be governed in the Eternities. There is no harmony if we are all singing the same exact note. Our individuality is so important that it was Satan's plan to wipe it out. I don't even think it's possible to have agency without individuality and "self". And as far as I know our agency will never be taken away. 

 

Following the straight and narrow path will only help us find our identity not lose it. It's a path toward more individuality, more freedom and away from sin which threatens both.

 

 

 

I think anyone that discovers who discovers beauty in this life, whether in nature or art, you quickly learn that perfection does not mean one song or one painting or one face. I can think of many perfect piano pieces that were created and played by completely different composers. Yet they are not the same, not even close.

 

Do you consider our individual personalities an imperfection?

 

again..how different are the saints....and how different are the Prophets of Old and our Modern Prophets. 

 

What comes to mind when I say Benson, Kimball, Hinckley, Monson? I too love how different they are from each other. 

 

 

Thank you, I find that very comforting.

 

 

One body that contains three heavens or degrees. 

 

You used D&C 130 to describe the "borg like" conditions in the next life but left out the very premise of that society which is this - 

 

 2 And that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy.

 

The sociality that exists now consists of individuals who by their own agency chose to associate with one another.

 

I think there is some truth to the eastern faiths idea of joining with God. As you quote in D&C we will be able to instantly know the will of God. I think this earth will be celestialized but I don't believe we all become one "Self". 

 

We find joy in variety, in personality, in individuality and certainly community. I don't think Heavenly Father is different.

I like your last sentence, "I don't think Heavenly Father is different."

 

One should ponder the instruction of Christ in this matter, Luke 9"23 ¶And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it."

 

Or even Neal Maxwell, "The end rule is “according to [our] desires … shall it be done unto [us]” (D&C 11:17), “for I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts” (D&C 137:9; see also Alma 41:5; D&C 6:20, 27). One’s individual will thus remains uniquely his. God will not override it nor overwhelm it. Hence we’d better want the consequences of what we want!

Another cosmic fact: only by aligning our wills with God’s is full happiness to be found. Anything less results in a lesser portion (see Alma 12:10–11). The Lord will work with us even if, at first, we “can no more than desire” but are willing to “give place for a portion of [His] words” (Alma 32:27). A small foothold is all He needs! But we must desire and provide it.

So many of us are kept from eventual consecration because we mistakenly think that, somehow, by letting our will be swallowed up in the will of God, we lose our individuality (see Mosiah 15:7). What we are really worried about, of course, is not giving up self, but selfish things—like our roles, our time, our preeminence, and our possessions. No wonder we are instructed by the Savior to lose ourselves (see Luke 9:24). He is only asking us to lose the old self in order to find the new self. It is not a question of one’s losing identity but of finding his true identity! Ironically, so many people already lose themselves anyway in their consuming hobbies and preoccupations but with far, far lesser things.

Ever observant, in both the first and second estates, consecrated Jesus always knew in which direction He faced: He consistently emulated His Father: “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise” (John 5:19), for “I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning” (3 Ne. 11:11)."

 

What I am saying is that if one aligns their will with God and as Neal Maxwell says this is only really a desire in this life as we don't really have full capacity to do it all in this life then we will find our true identity which is to have the capacity of "ALL".

 

If Bob ends up with "ALL" and Sarah ends up with "ALL", they each have 100% as individuals then how do they differ?

 

To desire (again even if it is not achievable in this life because yes we are all in a fallen state of variable differences with different talents and abilities) to have ALL that God has will open the mind to the "FULLNESS" of God but to those that harden their heart to that idea (they don't like that idea) they will receive a lesser portion because that is what they want.  Alma 12; "10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

 11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell."

 

Tell me just one thing that you think you have or someone has in this life that you would call a uniquely identifying good trait that God does not also have - can you name one person who has some good trait above what God has?

 

If you cannot and if you truley believe that we can have ALL that God has then those that eventually receive ALL that God has (no matter how long that might take) will have no uniquely identifying features different than God.  Yes, they will still be individuals with their own wills but it will be matched with the will of God and the mind of God without anything lacking in any way such that we can call it ALL that God has.

 

________

Just because someone could have the same set of desires passions talents etc doesn't mean they will all be 'singing the same note'.  If all that Christ did was the will of the Father then why didn't God just do it Himself?  Even though Christ' will is matched with the Father and even though His capacity is now one with the Father doesn't mean they are doing the exact same thing at the same time like synchronized swimmers.  But because they have the same passions and desires and traits then whenever Christ does something He can share it with God, He can truly do it FOR Him. 

 

We have all seen in various circumstances in this life that when one portrays a certain accumen for an activity that another does not equally share then it is not so much appreciated as it is with those that share the same accumen.  For example, I played a lot of soccer, in High Scool and in College and so when I watch a professional soccer game I can see the intricacies of the sport, the one-two passes, the ability to play to space and the flow of the game along with all my fellow soccer players who have equal experience in the game.  Whereas, my husband who has never played the sport but played American football doesn't have the same experience when he watches a soccer game.  So, when I watch American football with him I have a different experience than he does, I don't get as much out of it as he does. 

 

However, if we both had the same capacity (at least in understanding and experience - like me truly understanding what it was like for him to play American football, for example) for both sports then we could equally enjoy both sports to their fullest.

 

Apply that idea to all areas of enjoyment and now our capacity for joy is truly FULL. 

 

Again, go ahead and try to name one uniquely identifying feature of any individual that is good that God does not also have the capacity for in understanding it as that person.

 

If one gives 10% of all the talents to 10 different people and gives 100% of the talents to two people then the two one would call indistinguishable (as far as talents go) whereas the 10 one would call a variety.

 

Don't fall in love with the "10% world" when you can have 100%, that is Alma's message, Christ' message also in losing self to follow God's will as well as Neal A. Maxwell and many others.

[Windseeker]

Seminary I agree with much of what your saying regarding aligning our will with Gods and even being able to think and act as he would and becoming "One". 

 

Unfortunately I was indoctrinated at a young age in a philosophy that taught me "I am a child of God", and that I'm special and unique and loved unconditionally for who I am. I want to be obedient and become like Heavenly Father because he loves and experiences joy on a far greater level then I can now imagine. That does not mean I lose my unique individuality or sense of "self". 

 

It's clear that much of Heavenly Father's plan relies on our individuality. Satan seemed to know that if he pulled out that foundation truth the rest of the plan crumbles. You can't have agency without individuality/self  and you can't have true individuality without agency..

 

Why do we have a natural yearning to connect with our ancestors if they are all just one "self". I don't care to see them because they are me or I them.

 

As far as Heavenly Father and his traits, the main difference we may have is that I believe perfection is eternal which means it's endlessly deep as it is broad. So I believe there are endless perfect ways to laugh, smile, dance, sing, cry and pretty much do everything. ....I could go on. I think Heavenly Father has a personality. 

 

This was an interesting thread as well. 

 

http://lds.net/forums/topic/24594-can-variety-exist-with-perfection/page-2

[Seminarysnoozer]

Seminary I agree with much of what your saying regarding aligning our will with Gods and even being able to think and act as he would and becoming "One". 

 

Unfortunately I was indoctrinated at a young age in a philosophy that taught me "I am a child of God", and that I'm special and unique and loved unconditionally for who I am. I want to be obedient and become like Heavenly Father because he loves and experiences joy on a far greater level then I can now imagine. That does not mean I lose my unique individuality or sense of "self". 

 

It's clear that much of Heavenly Father's plan relies on our individuality. Satan seemed to know that if he pulled out that foundation truth the rest of the plan crumbles. You can't have agency without individuality/self  and you can't have true individuality without agency..

 

Why do we have a natural yearning to connect with our ancestors if they are all just one "self". I don't care to see them because they are me or I them.

 

As far as Heavenly Father and his traits, the main difference we may have is that I believe perfection is eternal which means it's endlessly deep as it is broad. So I believe there are endless perfect ways to laugh, smile, dance, sing, cry and pretty much do everything. ....I could go on. I think Heavenly Father has a personality. 

 

This was an interesting thread as well. 

 

http://lds.net/forums/topic/24594-can-variety-exist-with-perfection/page-2

We are talking about where we are going, not where we currently are.  I don't disagree with each of us being unique and working through our individual agency.  Satan wanted to jump through the end without having the process to get there.  He didn't understand that it takes the indiviudal through there agency to reach that state of being, that it can't simply be bestowed on a person.  He thought he could get it without the effort.

 

Tha doesn't meant the goal is evil.  His method was flawed.  He wants what we are still in line to receive.  Now that he is cast out and miserable he wants to make as many of us miserable as he can and tries to convince us that it isn't worth the effort.  He wants us to remain in our carnal state.  He wants to convince us that this mortal state is where its at and not to see beyond it.

 

The plan involves steps to reach the end of the arrow head, so-to-speak.  Yes, we are all uniquely different and our Heavenly Father loves who we are currently but also wants us to have a fullness of joy some day and not remain in a state that is less than our potential.  He wants us to have it by working through our agency and choosing it.  Unlike the nasty borg reference, it is by choice not by force.  Why would anyone choose to submit their will to God by choice, willingly and with all their heart, might, mind and strength loosing their self in the process?  Knowing why is the basis of many strong testimonies of the plan of happiness. 

 

The corruption of the body after the Fall is what sets up this process in which DNA mutates and changes, different from the original creation. That in and of itself is not evil because that is part of the process of living in the world.  But we do not have to be of the world.  We say to Our Heavenly Father, we do not want to remain in this awful state, we would rather take on the flesh of Christ, His perfect flesh and so we abide by the covenants, we take of His flesh and blood weekly with that symbolic gesture, "that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son", and Christ's act of losing the carnality (symbolically) "that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them".  We too will "shed" this body and all the fallen characteristics that come with it in following Christ.

 

Elder Bednar explained in conference; "As sons and daughters of God, we have inherited divine capacities from Him. But we presently live in a fallen world. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. Consequently, the Fall of Adam and its spiritual and temporal consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies. And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).

The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test. Every appetite, desire, propensity, and impulse of the natural man may be overcome by and through the Atonement of Jesus Christ."

 

Definition of propensity; "an inclination or natural tendency to behave in a particular way"  ... To act in a 'particular way' as opposed to someone else' particular way.

 

This provides an idea of where we are heading not where we are currently.

[Traveler]

We are talking about where we are going, not where we currently are.  I don't disagree with each of us being unique and working through our individual agency.  Satan wanted to jump through the end without having the process to get there.  He didn't understand that it takes the indiviudal through there agency to reach that state of being, that it can't simply be bestowed on a person.  He thought he could get it without the effort.

 

Tha doesn't meant the goal is evil.  His method was flawed.  He wants what we are still in line to receive.  Now that he is cast out and miserable he wants to make as many of us miserable as he can and tries to convince us that it isn't worth the effort.  He wants us to remain in our carnal state.  He wants to convince us that this mortal state is where its at and not to see beyond it.

 

The plan involves steps to reach the end of the arrow head, so-to-speak.  Yes, we are all uniquely different and our Heavenly Father loves who we are currently but also wants us to have a fullness of joy some day and not remain in a state that is less than our potential.  He wants us to have it by working through our agency and choosing it.  Unlike the nasty borg reference, it is by choice not by force.  Why would anyone choose to submit their will to God by choice, willingly and with all their heart, might, mind and strength loosing their self in the process?  Knowing why is the basis of many strong testimonies of the plan of happiness. 

 

The corruption of the body after the Fall is what sets up this process in which DNA mutates and changes, different from the original creation. That in and of itself is not evil because that is part of the process of living in the world.  But we do not have to be of the world.  We say to Our Heavenly Father, we do not want to remain in this awful state, we would rather take on the flesh of Christ, His perfect flesh and so we abide by the covenants, we take of His flesh and blood weekly with that symbolic gesture, "that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son", and Christ's act of losing the carnality (symbolically) "that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them".  We too will "shed" this body and all the fallen characteristics that come with it in following Christ.

 

Elder Bednar explained in conference; "As sons and daughters of God, we have inherited divine capacities from Him. But we presently live in a fallen world. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. Consequently, the Fall of Adam and its spiritual and temporal consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies. And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).

The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test. Every appetite, desire, propensity, and impulse of the natural man may be overcome by and through the Atonement of Jesus Christ."

 

Definition of propensity; "an inclination or natural tendency to behave in a particular way"  ... To act in a 'particular way' as opposed to someone else' particular way.

 

This provides an idea of where we are heading not where we are currently.

 

A thought - about Eden.  Perhaps it is not so much the decision or agency to partake of the forbidden fruit of the tree of "knowledge of good and evil" as it was to not make such a decision together.  That Satan's victory was not really getting "Adam" and "Eve" to partake for individual reasons as it was getting them to partake of the fruit separately and not together.

 

But this would mean that the natural man is the essence of selfishness or individualism.  And that the spirit or better understood as the spirit of Christ is the opposite or the essence of self and the giving up of individualism which is the sacrifice of self (physical or spirit self) - and thus extends to that which is both our physical or spirit nature to care for self first. 

Edited November 24, 2014 by Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

Does glory or do degrees of glory other than the highest degree of the celestial kingdom have "happy" souls inhabiting them?

 

If by "happy" you mean do they have a "fullness of joy" .. then no.. By my understanding we have to be in the presence of God to have that.  I guess anywhere else is not a "happy" place by that definition.  Is this what you mean by "happy?"  By that definition nobody except those at the pinnacle of all glory can be happy... 

But perhaps I'm not understanding what you're saying...  I think most people, even most LDS use the term a little more broadly than that.  Even the term "joy" is used more broadly than that...  "Fullness of joy" seems pretty locked-in though.. if that's what you mean by "happy."

 

One other thing about people progressing and wishing they could be somewhere else... I find it difficult to believe that by the time the final judgement rolls around that there will be people filing appeals... As has been stated "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess" that Jesus is the Christ.  I don't think anybody who inherits a degree of glory will have to be forced to their knees.  I believe ALL beings of whatever glory will be willing and happy to kneel.  Am I wrong on this?

 

I don't mean anything. I'm honestly inquiring. I would honestly be interested in seeing any quotes, scriptures, or other sources that those in the telestial kingdom will be happy. I know it is often interpreted by people that "glory" must mean "happy" at some level. But both words are not constants. Glory and happiness are both relative states. So, yes, I expect there is some level of happiness in the lower kingdoms. But we also know there will not be a "fulness" of either joy or glory there. So my guess is we'd be hard pressed to see a "they'll be happy" statement, because the idea implies a completeness of said happiness, which is false.

 

This is part of my problem with Traveler's philosophy. The idea that they'll be "happy", as in content, with their lot implies a fulness that I believe false. Yes, I accept they'll have some level of happiness, and some level of contentment in their levels of glory. But the factual nature of that joy and glory not being full also means that there will have to also be a level of sorrow and discontentment in their states. I expect the lower the state, the greater the levels of sorrow and discontentment as compared to the lowered happiness and contentment.

[Windseeker]

You are saying if you lose yourself you will eventually become "Self" and we will all be the same because we will be perfect. I'm saying that if you lose yourself you will find yourself and you will retain more identity and individuality then if you chose the other paths. This is what C.S. Lewis contends, this is what I believe Maxwell is saying.

 

There is a marked difference in the Joy that a person feels when a child is obedient then when you pull a string and a puppets arm moves. The Joy you feel partly because you love the child but a big part of it is also the awareness that they are individual, that they are acting in and of themselves and not being acted upon. I believe this is the Joy our Heavenly Father feels and the Joy we wanted to experience as well.

 

Satan's end goal was not the same but the opposite - 

From Act in Doctrine by Elder Bednar

 

"The Lord's willingness to submit to God's will and offer Him-self as the infinite and eternal sacrifice pre-served moral agency in mortality for Heavenly Father's spirit children. Thus, as sons and daughters of God we are agents with the inherent capacity to act and to learn--and not objects that primarily are acted upon."

 

"Satan, on the other hand, turned inward, desired to achieve his own selfish interests, and wanted to usurp the glory of the Father for him-self...The adversary's desire was that we as learners would only be acted upon...Please remember that Lucifer did not present a plan that subsequently voted down by a major-ity of the participants in the pre-mortal council. He was not a sympathetic figure who lost a close election. He was a malcontent who rebelled!"

...

 

"Elder Marion G. Romney explained that mortality without agency would relegate men and women to be "puppets in the hands of fate" and there would be no existence." "For this reason, the protection of agency "is more important then the preservation of life". 

 

 

I also feel those deep feelings of "self"- preservation which cause us to balk when our identity is faced with oblivion is naturally good instinct that Satan uses against us like many other naturally good instincts such as procreation . 

 

Fear of joining the "Borg" (if such a thing existed) is a good fear is it not? We ought to be careful to keep in context it was rugged individualism that provided a nation ringing with freedom where the gospel restoration could safely take hold.  For many it's that deep innate desire for identity and individuality that causes many to finally look upwards to heaven to find happiness and truth after their futile inward search. 

 

Once we discover who we are we are then asked, like our Savior, to off ourselves up as a sacrifice. And in doing so will  find ourselves greater in the end. 

 

We are never asked to give up our unique identity or individuality in this life, and it won't be required in the next. We are to give all of our self to Heavenly Father, and my contention is that we don't have anything to give if we don't retain a "self" and an individual identity to forever give. That would be a false sacrifice.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Windseeker

[Vort]

Satan wanted to jump through the end without having the process to get there.  He didn't understand that it takes the indiviudal through there agency to reach that state of being, that it can't simply be bestowed on a person.  He thought he could get it without the effort.

 

Tha doesn't meant the goal is evil.  His method was flawed.

 

I hear this idea voiced fairly often in the Church. I could not possibly disagree more.

 

Satan is not a poor, slightly ignorant, and misunderstood being. His goal in his so-called "plan" was the subjugation of mankind the the usurpation of God's honor. He had no other goal. He had no real idea that he could "save" people with some stupid ersatz replacement "plan of salvation".

 

He lied.

 

Wow. How about that. Satan lied. Who'da thunk?

 

Satan never believe he could save people's souls without their effort. There is no scripture that suggests any such thing. Rather, Satan offered smooth words and lies to incite rebellion against the Father, which is exactly what happened. He sought the Father's honor and glory. There was no speck of good intention in his Satanic "offer". It was unadulterated hubris and selfish disdain of God's plan.

 

It's dirty pool to isolate one small part of a long post in order to pick on it, but...that's what I'm doing. Please forgive me, Seminarysnoozer. :)

[The Folk Prophet]

It's dirty pool to isolate one small part of a long post in order to pick on it, but...that's what I'm doing. Please forgive me, Seminarysnoozer. :)

 

That's how we roll here.

[theSQUIDSTER]

I don't mean anything. I'm honestly inquiring. I would honestly be interested in seeing any quotes, scriptures, or other sources that those in the telestial kingdom will be happy. I know it is often interpreted by people that "glory" must mean "happy" at some level. But both words are not constants. Glory and happiness are both relative states. So, yes, I expect there is some level of happiness in the lower kingdoms. But we also know there will not be a "fulness" of either joy or glory there. So my guess is we'd be hard pressed to see a "they'll be happy" statement, because the idea implies a completeness of said happiness, which is false.

 

 

Despite our both wrestling with semantics, I think we're basically in agreement on this.  There really is only one place where we can receive of a fullness.  That is supposedly our goal if we've been through the temple.. so it behooves us to not take such a great promises lightly. Perhaps this is why there's more spoken about the celestial than the other places.  Our Father really does want as many of us there as are willing to make and keep our covenants so we will be able to be there.  I hope I'm able to be there.  I hope you're able to be there too.   :)

 

This is part of my problem with Traveler's philosophy. The idea that they'll be "happy", as in content, with their lot implies a fulness that I believe false. Yes, I accept they'll have some level of happiness, and some level of contentment in their levels of glory. But the factual nature of that joy and glory not being full also means that there will have to also be a level of sorrow and discontentment in their states. I expect the lower the state, the greater the levels of sorrow and discontentment as compared to the lowered happiness and contentment.

 

It is true that if we take things lightly and/or "settle" for something less than what we could have we will regret it.  Will we be allowed to wallow in that regret for years?  Centuries?  Eons?  Eternity?   Gosh... I sure hope not.  But I honestly don't know. From the way the scriptures word things it is my understanding that such would not be God's doing.  Even "eternal punishment" or God's punishment has an end, right?  But the scripture doesn't say anything about self-punishment ...  Will that happen in a degree of glory?  (I can totally see it happening in outer-darkness.)  Is that the natural result of anything we hold back from our Father?  That we wind-up using it against ourselves for as long as we feel so inclined?  If we kick a little bit against the pricks during our mortal probation without repenting fully will we wind up kicking ourselves for eternity or for a time?  I doubt such would be allowed or even in our nature in the state of fullness... But elsewhere, I don't know..  Kind of a scary thought to me. What are your ideas?

[The Folk Prophet]

theSQUIDSTER,

 

I don't think it's about that. It's not about "punishment" per se, or about our kicking ourselves forever (though we may well). It's about our ability to progress. I suspect there are other limitations as we go further down the kingdoms too. But the simple fact is that unless we make the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom then we are damned. I don't use that in the meaningless way that most religious talk might...we are literally damned. We are stopped from progression. The only way we can have eternal progression is through the covenant of eternal marriage wherein we are made gods, put above all things, able to create worlds without end, and have endless seed. (D&C 131 and 132)  Anything short of this put us into a state of literal damnation, regardless of what other simple pleasures or joys we may or may not have access to.

 

One thing I think Traveler and others fail to account for in the grand scheme of thing in this is that WE ALREADY WANT THIS! We chose it before this life. We possibly aspired to it for eons. This mortal existence is a mere blip in the eternities, and we seem to forget that eternity stretches both ways? Will we just have forgotten our pre-earth life, the choices we made, that we helped cast Satan out, stood for the Savior, and chose to come to life so that we could become like our Father? No. Of course not. This is who we are...who we have been for what is who knows how much longer than our short mortal existences.  When we remember who we actually are and realized that the choices we made in our state of forgetfulness destroyed our chances to have what we could have, the idea that we won't be devastated by this is silly to me.

Edited November 25, 2014 by The Folk Prophet

[classylady]

From Mosiah chapter 16:

1"...The time shall come when all shall see the salvation of the Lord; when every nation, kindred, tongue, and people shall see eye to eye and shall confess before God that his judgments are just.

 2 And then shall the wicked be cast out, and they shall have cause to howl, and weep, and wail, and gnash their teeth; and this because they would not hearken unto the voice of the Lord;…"

 

This is how I envision myself if I should go to the lower kingdoms.  I know the truth.  I know the commandments.  If I don't attain the Celestial Kingdom, I have no one to blame but myself.

[Seminarysnoozer]

 

You are saying if you lose yourself you will eventually become "Self" and we will all be the same because we will be perfect. I'm saying that if you lose yourself you will find yourself and you will retain more identity and individuality then if you chose the other paths. This is what C.S. Lewis contends, this is what I believe Maxwell is saying.

 

There is a marked difference in the Joy that a person feels when a child is obedient then when you pull a string and a puppets arm moves. The Joy you feel partly because you love the child but a big part of it is also the awareness that they are individual, that they are acting in and of themselves and not being acted upon. I believe this is the Joy our Heavenly Father feels and the Joy we wanted to experience as well.

 

Satan's end goal was not the same but the opposite - 

 

I also feel those deep feelings of "self"- preservation which cause us to balk when our identity is faced with oblivion is naturally good instinct that Satan uses against us like many other naturally good instincts such as procreation . 

 

Fear of joining the "Borg" (if such a thing existed) is a good fear is it not? We ought to be careful to keep in context it was rugged individualism that provided a nation ringing with freedom where the gospel restoration could safely take hold.  For many it's that deep innate desire for identity and individuality that causes many to finally look upwards to heaven to find happiness and truth after their futile inward search. 

 

Once we discover who we are we are then asked, like our Savior, to off ourselves up as a sacrifice. And in doing so will  find ourselves greater in the end. 

 

We are never asked to give up our unique identity or individuality in this life, and it won't be required in the next. We are to give all of our self to Heavenly Father, and my contention is that we don't have anything to give if we don't retain a "self" and an individual identity to forever give. That would be a false sacrifice.

 

When we ask ourselves who we really are and then we answer "I am a child of God" we have already come to the conclusion that who we are is dependent on someone else. 

 

One of the biggest problems I see is when people use the terms individual and unique interchangeably.  It is possible to be an individual and yet be exactly like another.  However, one cannot be unique and be exactly like another. I am not, in any way, disagreeing with the idea of being an individual, but I am disagreeing with the passionate drive to remain a unique individual.  There is a difference.  A person that seeks to be a "unique" individual wants to stand out of the crowd for very selfish reasons.  When there is a pain from not being unique enough, like somene wheres the same dress to church that you are wearing, for example, than that is a desire that pulls away from Celestial lack of uniqueness.  One can be an individual without having to be unique.  Is there any trait that God has that Christ does not also possess or will soon possess?  I didn't ask if they had different roles, like father and son etc. just traits.   As Christ compares to God, we hope that some day we would be able to say the same thing about ourselves in comparing to God.  That we might have His image in our countenance and that we might be one with them, hardly distinguishable and yet individuals that would act and speak and do and have the same ability and talents exactly like anyone else in that realm, 100% God-like.  Variabiliy would have to entail something less than 100%.

[Windseeker]

I agree that we will take on his likeness and have his image in our countenance...were his children after all.

 

I think you have made it clear that we truly need to let go of ourselves and become like our Heavenly Father. I don't dispute that and along with you contend its the very reason and purpose we find ourselves in this state in the first place trudging the straight and narrow path. 

 

My contention is that in my study and in my attempts to draw closer to Heavenly Father I have found that becoming like him means becoming our true selves. We shed our weaknesses and make them strengths, we become new. But in so doing we become wholly ourselves and become even more unique and distinguished as we are blessed with this attributes.

 

Becoming like him also means we take joy in variation. It's not just the inhabitants of his creation that love variety, it's the Creator himself. Monotony is not a virtue, and there is nothing in nature or creation or beauty that suggests it is. 

 

Consider these quotes - 

 

"Each of us is unique. Each child is unique. Just as each of us starts at a different point in the race of life, and just as each of us has different strengths and weaknesses and talents, so each child is blessed with his own special set of characteristics." ~ Howard W Hunter

 

blessed....with special characteristics

 

"Recently I stood on the north shore of a beautiful Pacific island gazing out to sea at daybreak. I was fascinated by the regularity with which the gigantic waves consistently moved forward to break on the shoreline. It reminded me of the constancy of the plan of the Lord, with its fixed, eternal law, and the security of enduring justice and the tenderness of mercy when earned by obedience. I noticed that each wave would crest at a different point on the horizon to find its unique path to shore. Some cascaded over rocks, leaving rivulets of foaming, white water. Others burst on the shore in individual patterns. They slid up the moistened sand with playful frothy edges, then bubbled and swirled as they receded."
 

 

"I thought of the unending variety of possibilities the Lord has provided for us. We have so much freedom, so many opportunities to develop our unique personalities and talents, our individual memories, our personalized contributions. Since there would be no further opportunity to observe the majestic sea, I tried to imagine the glorious panorama the brilliant sun would later create. As I watched this magnificent scene in reverence, a window formed in the clouds; the glistening rays of the rising sun broke through the overcast sky, transforming everything with its luminescence, its color, its life. It was as if the Lord wanted to share an additional blessing, a symbol of the light of His teachings that gives brilliance and hope to everyone it touches. Tears of gratitude formed for this wondrous world in which we live, for the extraordinary beauty our Heavenly Father so freely shares with all who are willing to see. Truly, life is beautiful." ~ Richard G Scott

 

 

We don't develop our unique personalities to cast them aside. They are a blessing, they are good. Not evil.

 

Perfection does not mean Monotony. In most things it's the little variations that makes something perfect and unique and beautiful.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Windseeker

[The Folk Prophet]

I fall somewhere between SemSnoozer and Windseeker. I see no value in variety. I also don't think we'll all be "exactly" the same, but I can't source that or support it with any logical doctrinal ideas. So I'm forced to side with SemSnoozer on this one (though, as I've explained, I think the descriptive phrasing she uses is lacking and ends up sounding too hive minded).

 

Windseeker, there is no logical path to apply your quotes to the eternities. We know we're born unique in this life. That does not automatically lead to we must all remain unique forever more.

 

Though I do wonder about our physical beings. There are quotes stating we'll look the same as we do in this life. In God's image no more than I'm in my earthly father's image, perhaps. But character-wise? How can there be variety in perfection? Some of us will make tigers with orange stripes, others with purple? Why? Just for fun? Does a perfect, all powerful being do things just for fun? Is whimsy even possible when you're all-knowing? And...is there truly neutral in anything? God is perfect in every way. If there is no neutral, then every choice He makes can not vary, because it must by nature of who He is be the best and most perfect choice in every case.

[Vort]

TFP, my personal belief is that we don't comprehend what perfection or eternal lives mean. We have a very imperfect (sorry) understanding of all such concepts. This is partially because we are limited by our very language, but much more because we are ourselves imperfect and do not understand the Spirit in all things.

 

One of the differences early Saints of this dispensation rejoiced in vis-à-vis (for example) Roman Catholicism was that they did not end up having to respond to so many questions with, "That's a mystery." So I hesitate to trumpet too loudly that we really don't know what we're talking about here. I don't want to deny the revelations we have or our ability to gain further revelations privately. But I do think that there is a kernel of truth to the idea that some things are simply beyond us at this stage of our existence. I suspect this issue butts up against one of those possibly unknowable things.

[The Folk Prophet]

TFP, my personal belief is that we don't comprehend what perfection or eternal lives mean. We have a very imperfect (sorry) understanding of all such concepts. This is partially because we are limited by our very language, but much more because we are ourselves imperfect and do not understand the Spirit in all things.

 

One of the differences early Saints of this dispensation rejoiced in vis-à-vis (for example) Roman Catholicism was that they did not end up having to respond to so many questions with, "That's a mystery." So I hesitate to trumpet too loudly that we really don't know what we're talking about here. I don't want to deny the revelations we have or our ability to gain further revelations privately. But I do think that there is a kernel of truth to the idea that some things are simply beyond us at this stage of our existence. I suspect this issue butts up against one of those possibly unknowable things.

 

Just out of curiosity, what did I say that your...refuting? expounding on? I'm not sure how this explicitly ties in...or if it's just a general thought.

[Vort]

Just out of curiosity, what did I say that your...refuting? expounding on? I'm not sure how this explicitly ties in...or if it's just a general thought.

 

Hmmm...probably this.

 

But character-wise? How can there be variety in perfection? Some of us will make tigers with orange stripes, others with purple? Why? Just for fun? Does a perfect, all powerful being do things just for fun? Is whimsy even possible when you're all-knowing? And...is there truly neutral in anything? God is perfect in every way. If there is no neutral, then every choice He makes can not vary, because it must by nature of who He is be the best and most perfect choice in every case.

 

In inquiring about whether God has this or that personality trait, I suspect we are completely out of our depth.

[Seminarysnoozer]

 

I agree that we will take on his likeness and have his image in our countenance...were his children after all.

 

I think you have made it clear that we truly need to let go of ourselves and become like our Heavenly Father. I don't dispute that and along with you contend its the very reason and purpose we find ourselves in this state in the first place trudging the straight and narrow path. 

 

My contention is that in my study and in my attempts to draw closer to Heavenly Father I have found that becoming like him means becoming our true selves. We shed our weaknesses and make them strengths, we become new. But in so doing we become wholly ourselves and become even more unique and distinguished as we are blessed with this attributes.

 

Becoming like him also means we take joy in variation. It's not just the inhabitants of his creation that love variety, it's the Creator himself. Monotony is not a virtue, and there is nothing in nature or creation or beauty that suggests it is. 

 

Consider these quotes - 

 

"Each of us is unique. Each child is unique. Just as each of us starts at a different point in the race of life, and just as each of us has different strengths and weaknesses and talents, so each child is blessed with his own special set of characteristics." ~ Howard W Hunter

 

blessed....with special characteristics

 

"Recently I stood on the north shore of a beautiful Pacific island gazing out to sea at daybreak. I was fascinated by the regularity with which the gigantic waves consistently moved forward to break on the shoreline. It reminded me of the constancy of the plan of the Lord, with its fixed, eternal law, and the security of enduring justice and the tenderness of mercy when earned by obedience. I noticed that each wave would crest at a different point on the horizon to find its unique path to shore. Some cascaded over rocks, leaving rivulets of foaming, white water. Others burst on the shore in individual patterns. They slid up the moistened sand with playful frothy edges, then bubbled and swirled as they receded."

 

 

"I thought of the unending variety of possibilities the Lord has provided for us. We have so much freedom, so many opportunities to develop our unique personalities and talents, our individual memories, our personalized contributions. Since there would be no further opportunity to observe the majestic sea, I tried to imagine the glorious panorama the brilliant sun would later create. As I watched this magnificent scene in reverence, a window formed in the clouds; the glistening rays of the rising sun broke through the overcast sky, transforming everything with its luminescence, its color, its life. It was as if the Lord wanted to share an additional blessing, a symbol of the light of His teachings that gives brilliance and hope to everyone it touches. Tears of gratitude formed for this wondrous world in which we live, for the extraordinary beauty our Heavenly Father so freely shares with all who are willing to see. Truly, life is beautiful." ~ Richard G Scott

 

 

We don't develop our unique personalities to cast them aside. They are a blessing, they are good. Not evil.

 

Perfection does not mean Monotony. In most things it's the little variations that makes something perfect and unique and beautiful.

 

We develop our unique talents while in this life so that we may be worthy of greater stewardship. These "unique talents" are on loan, as the parable of the ten talents suggests.  They are not self but stewardships.  We do not own them.  I think that is the first mistake in considering unique traits, it is an inherintly selfish view.  I have this while the other person does not.  It is beautiful in the sense that is provides us with the opportunity to learn about charity.  When there are deficiencies then we need to fill in those deficiencies with love and carring. The beauty in the deficiency is that we can provide for others what they cant do for their self, it is a chance for service.  Those are some of the things we need to learn here to appreciate the value of the gifts we receive in the next life.

 

LDS.org explains that the temple is a place to make covenants with God and that the Celestial room represents what it might be like to be in Gods presence.  While there, the one place in this world that most represents being in Gods presence in the Celestial Kingdom, as much as really possible in this world, go ahead and think of all the self expression and uniqueness that is shown there.  Think of the variety in the people that exists there and how they express their variety (we are talking about people not the surroundings).  How many various things that one would describe as the variety of the world that is found to be beautiful is expressed there.

 

Contrast that with the worlds drive for uniqueness.  Body modification, tattos and piercings are an example of that. 25% of kids (Yes I am old so I can call them kids) under the age of 30 undergo some kind of body modification.  According to most psychologist, among the many reasons they do this is for self-expression, to express their unique circumstances and views on life, their unique characteristics.  Stephen Franzoi, a social psychologist who studies physical attractiveness and body esteem at Marquette University, agrees that young adults now view bod-mod as a mainstream form of self-expression. But savor the paradox: "Interestingly enough," he points out, "the desire to express your own unique qualities, is, in one sense, an act of conformity. It's a social norm that an increasing number of young adults are conforming to."   In other words, the "norm" of the world is to try to be uniquely different.  That is what the carnal world strives for.

 

The other thing to realize is that we are dual beings, both body and spirit.  The body is of "nature" it is natural or natural man or carnal.  We are both while in this world, both natural man and spirit.  As Elder Bednar pointed out in conference it is what we choose one over the other that is the test.

 

In the Hymn, O God The Eternal Father, Christ is described as "

With no apparent beauty,

That man should him desire"  taking that from Isaiah.   Christ, in other words, did not stand out in the crowd.  He did not try to stand out in the crowd.  He gave no thought as to the clothes he was going to where etc. He did not try to attract people by his "apparent beauty" but by his love, his inner beauty.

 

I agree that this life is beautiful in its creation and set up.  I dont think I can say it any better than The Folk Prophet did, that we start out with unique set of talents and even before this life we did as well.  There is no arguement to that. But that may be different than where we are heading.  The likely result is that there may not be very many people that could call their self "one" with God in the end.  So, probably the majority of people will fall in love with their varied selves and remain that way.  That is not to say it is evil.  The Telestial Kingdom is not evil, it is a Kingdom of glory and yet it is filled with variety as one star differs from another.  It still wont be as varied as here because they all will have to at least conform to the requirements needed to be in the presence of the Holy Ghost. 

[Seminarysnoozer]

 

 

Hmmm...probably this.

 

 

In inquiring about whether God has this or that personality trait, I suspect we are completely out of our depth.

 

Do you think it is possible, even though we are limited in our ability to understand, that God has a whimsical nature, that He may do thinks "just to be different"?  I think we are told that God does what has always been done and that He doesn't vary His course.

Mormon 9; "9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?

 10 And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then have ye imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles."

 

D&C 3; " 2 For God doth not walk in crooked paths, neither doth he turn to the right hand nor to the left, neither doth he vary from that which he hath said, therefore his paths are straight, and his course is one eternal round."

[The Folk Prophet]

 

 

Hmmm...probably this.

 

 

In inquiring about whether God has this or that personality trait, I suspect we are completely out of our depth.

 

 

But God has told us that he never varies, and that He is perfect. I'll grant some interpolation there. But it's only theoretical, and is only meant to be taken as theoretical.