What will those in the bottom two kingdoms do after it is all over and done?


John Prather
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I don't think I'm bound for a lesser kingdom because I value individuality and personality or love the variety of his creation. But if I am, then Heavenly Father sure pulled a fast one on me with this crazy smoke and mirrors experience and at least I know his personality contains a wry sense of humor.

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I fall somewhere between SemSnoozer and Windseeker. I see no value in variety. I also don't think we'll all be "exactly" the same, but I can't source that or support it with any logical doctrinal ideas. So I'm forced to side with SemSnoozer on this one 

 

SeminarySnoozer!  Young lady, if I've told you once then I've told you a thousand times... stop forcing people!  If you force people, whose plan is THAT REALLY ... after all.... hmmmmm?  could it be... oh I don't know... SSss... 

 

:P  :eek:  :confused:  :lol:

 

... I kid... I kid... I just find it funny that TFP feels he reluctantly has to take a side... Or that's what it sounds like.... TFP, nobody's forcing you ...That's not "how we roll..."   :lol:

 

 

Honestly, and all kidding aside... I think Vort said right when he said we're probably WAY out of our depth on many of these things.  I don't know if mortal minds even have the capacity to fathom the mysteries and glories of our Father, who he really is, and how he REALLY rolls... which is probably part of the reason we're gonna need an upgrade on these bodies/minds before we can learn and grasp some of the things of eternity and our Father... a personage of which Brother Joseph described as defying "all description."... 

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I don't think I'm bound for a lesser kingdom because I value individuality and personality or love the variety of his creation. But if I am, then Heavenly Father sure pulled a fast one on me with this crazy smoke and mirrors experience and at least I know his personality contains a wry sense of humor.

 

That doesn't qualify someone for a lower kingdom. Disobedience does.

 

If there's no variety in the Celestial Kingdom then you'll love it! If there is, you'll love it! As long as you're obedient here.

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That doesn't qualify someone for a lower kingdom. Disobedience does.

 

If there's no variety in the Celestial Kingdom then you'll love it! If there is, you'll love it! As long as you're obedient here.

 

Perhaps the plan with all this variety Heavenly Father created on earth and in the heavens was to prepare us for the complete lack of it in the Eternities.

 

We'll be so sick of it by the time we leave we'll be more then happy to stare into a white light and mind meld with our perfect "Self" for the rest of our existence.

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I don't think I'm bound for a lesser kingdom because I value individuality and personality or love the variety of his creation. But if I am, then Heavenly Father sure pulled a fast one on me with this crazy smoke and mirrors experience and at least I know his personality contains a wry sense of humor.

Nobody said YOU were bound anywhere.  We also weren't really talking about 'this' creation as much as what happens after this life.  We can all love and value this life for what it is. 

I think many, even in our religion, don't believe we fell very far.  However far we fell is how great the saving grace of the atonement is. They are inversley proportional. We cannot serve God and Mammon and the same time.  So, either we serve the fallen state or the risen state.  Either we believe 'I am this way cause that is how God created me' or we believe 'I am this way cause this is the temporary stewardship God gave me for this second estate test that we will be rested from when the test is over so we can go onto a glorious state'.  Spencer Kimball; "Those who have lived after the manner of the world shall go to a telestial kingdom whose glory is as the stars."

 

Neal A. Maxwell; "Each post-resurrection kingdom is a kingdom of glory that is far better than this world we now know. Even "the glory of the telestial" will surpass "all understanding" (D&C 76:89)"

 

Bruce McConkie; "That glory granted the inhabitants of the lowest kingdom of glory is called telestial glory. In the infinite mercy of a beneficent Father it surpasses all mortal understanding, and yet it is in no way comparable to the glory of the terrestrial and celestial worlds. Telestial glory is typified by the stars of the firmament, and "as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world" (D. & C. 76:81-112; 1 Cor. 15:41), meaning that all who inherit the telestial kingdom will not receive the same glory."  ... as opposed to the other kingdoms where people do receive of the same glory pertaining to that kingdom.  ...varied vs same.

 

James Talmage; "We learn further that the inhabitants of this kingdom are to be graded among themselves, comprising as they do the unenlightened among the varied opposing sects and divisions of men, and sinners of many types, whose offenses are not those of utter perdition: "For as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world; For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they who say they are some of one and some of another -- some of Christ, and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant." (Articles of Faith, pp.407 - 408)"   ... meaning they accept all the variety of worship out there, it doesn't matter so long as one has faith, a little of this a little of that, variety is good, cover all the bases type attitude.

Edited by Seminarysnoozer
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Seminarysnoozer, on 28 Nov 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

Nobody said YOU were bound anywhere.  

 

…?

 

Seminarysnoozer, on 20 Nov 2014 - 5:21 PM, said:

If one likes variety, there is a place for that described in the scriptures as 'one star differing from another'.  But as for the Celestial Kingdom it is described as one body as the Sun is one body.

 

…?

 

Seminarysnoozer, on 25 Nov 2014 - 7:32 PM, said:

So, probably the majority of people will fall in love with their varied selves and remain that way.  That is not to say it is evil.  The Telestial Kingdom is not evil, it is a Kingdom of glory and yet it is filled with variety as one star differs from another.  It still won’t be as varied as here because they all will have to at least conform to the requirements needed to be in the presence of the Holy Ghost. 

 

"That is not to say it is evil.  The Telestial Kingdom is not evil"

.....lovely

 

It’s pretty obvious I appreciate individual variety and personality. To me that means I love both Spencer W. Kimball and Gordon B. Hinkley and I recognize and appreciate that they are different.  Variation is not evil but is part of Heavenly Fathers’s design, that ought to be pretty obvious to most people who open their eyes, eat, smell, taste and interact with others. It is part of the very foundation of what brings us Joy and a major principle in the creation.

 

There are those that prefer to cut off their nose to spite their face and claim there is no need or joy in variation, but I doubt anyone takes joy in eating the same thing every meal and listening to same song and reading the same sentence over and over.  Even those things are made up of a variety of flavors, notes and words.  So I’m chiding myself for even wasting my time discussing this any further it’s so ridiculous on its face. I’m arguing with people who by their mere existence prove, without saying anything that variation is a joy and that it’s part of Heavenly Father’s plan..not just for this earth, but for the eternities.

 

Not once have I alluded to variation being how many different people we can commit adultery with or the variation of immodesty we can display or variation in the commandments or variation in the path back to Heavenly Father or “God made me this way so I must be perfect” and any other derogatory way you can come up with how evil variety in and of itself is. It’s too exhausting chasing down and dispelling these ridiculous straw men.

 

If you think the difference in personality between President Kimball and President Hinckley is because they are holding on to some evil in their disposition and character then I’m sorry to disappoint you. I simply don’t believe we are heading toward a destination where the only noticeable difference and identifiable feature between individuals living the highest order of the celestial kingdom is a barcode.

 

This life is not a hoax; it’s not here to teach us how to find joy only to cast those means away. All of creation is evidence that surrounds us, instructs us,  and has meaning,  giving us a strong indication of what awaits us in the hereafter.  

 

The same spirits that inhabit this body now will inhabit in then, ..so what can I say. Those who appreciate and enjoy the beauty and variety of Heavenly Father’s creation will probably enjoy it in the next life and it would be an awfully sad thing to see those disciples cast out of his presence because of it.

 

D&C 76:98

And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

 

I don’t know how you take that to mean that those in the lowest kingdoms get to experience a variety of glories, when they are NOT assigned to ALL but ONE of those. It only makes sense that those who make it to the highest kingdom will experience the greatest joy and as it so happens the greatest amount of variety. They have keys to all the kingdoms and then some!

 

Not once have I said Heavenly Father wants us all tatt’ed up with each eye a different color and our body pierced in a variety of ways…lol. We are his children and we (I) want to be like him. But I will never, no matter how hard I try, actually BE him. Nor will anyone else. We will remain ourselves….thank Heavens!  There are those Christians that think he prays to himself, so perhaps your line of thinking would be closer to other Christian sects then LDS thought.

 

I leave you with this this quote by C.S. Lewis which I’m posting again. I believe its truth, but you can take it any way you want. You can say God wants to destroy “Self” and “Personality” but that is not how I interpret this at ALL. I believe we will have greater individual personality and identity the closer we become like our Heavenly Father. I reject this idea we all become "Self"...again for the 100th time, which is where this discussion for me started and why I said that Heavenly Father takes joy in variety and so do most of us, like our Parents in Heaven. 

 

I also bid adieu to this thread as I have no desire to be cast again into the lowest kingdom with the rest of those who like eating something other than oatmeal every day and find joy in the company of others outside themselves. 

 

 

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Seminarysnoozer, on 28 Nov 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

Nobody said YOU were bound anywhere.  

 

…?

 

Seminarysnoozer, on 20 Nov 2014 - 5:21 PM, said:

If one likes variety, there is a place for that described in the scriptures as 'one star differing from another'.  But as for the Celestial Kingdom it is described as one body as the Sun is one body.

 

…?

 

Seminarysnoozer, on 25 Nov 2014 - 7:32 PM, said:

So, probably the majority of people will fall in love with their varied selves and remain that way.  That is not to say it is evil.  The Telestial Kingdom is not evil, it is a Kingdom of glory and yet it is filled with variety as one star differs from another.  It still won’t be as varied as here because they all will have to at least conform to the requirements needed to be in the presence of the Holy Ghost. 

 

"That is not to say it is evil.  The Telestial Kingdom is not evil"

.....lovely

 

It’s pretty obvious I appreciate individual variety and personality. To me that means I love both Spencer W. Kimball and Gordon B. Hinkley and I recognize and appreciate that they are different.  Variation is not evil but is part of Heavenly Fathers’s design, that ought to be pretty obvious to most people who open their eyes, eat, smell, taste and interact with others. It is part of the very foundation of what brings us Joy and a major principle in the creation.

 

There are those that prefer to cut off their nose to spite their face and claim there is no need or joy in variation, but I doubt anyone takes joy in eating the same thing every meal and listening to same song and reading the same sentence over and over.  Even those things are made up of a variety of flavors, notes and words.  So I’m chiding myself for even wasting my time discussing this any further it’s so ridiculous on its face. I’m arguing with people who by their mere existence prove, without saying anything that variation is a joy and that it’s part of Heavenly Father’s plan..not just for this earth, but for the eternities.

 

Not once have I alluded to variation being how many different people we can commit adultery with or the variation of immodesty we can display or variation in the commandments or variation in the path back to Heavenly Father or “God made me this way so I must be perfect” and any other derogatory way you can come up with how evil variety in and of itself is. It’s too exhausting chasing down and dispelling these ridiculous straw men.

 

If you think the difference in personality between President Kimball and President Hinckley is because they are holding on to some evil in their disposition and character then I’m sorry to disappoint you. I simply don’t believe we are heading toward a destination where the only noticeable difference and identifiable feature between individuals living the highest order of the celestial kingdom is a barcode.

 

This life is not a hoax; it’s not here to teach us how to find joy only to cast those means away. All of creation is evidence that surrounds us, instructs us,  and has meaning,  giving us a strong indication of what awaits us in the hereafter.  

 

The same spirits that inhabit this body now will inhabit in then, ..so what can I say. Those who appreciate and enjoy the beauty and variety of Heavenly Father’s creation will probably enjoy it in the next life and it would be an awfully sad thing to see those disciples cast out of his presence because of it.

 

D&C 76:98

And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

 

I don’t know how you take that to mean that those in the lowest kingdoms get to experience a variety of glories, when they are NOT assigned to ALL but ONE of those. It only makes sense that those who make it to the highest kingdom will experience the greatest joy and as it so happens the greatest amount of variety. They have keys to all the kingdoms and then some!

 

Not once have I said Heavenly Father wants us all tatt’ed up with each eye a different color and our body pierced in a variety of ways…lol. We are his children and we (I) want to be like him. But I will never, no matter how hard I try, actually BE him. Nor will anyone else. We will remain ourselves….thank Heavens!  There are those Christians that think he prays to himself, so perhaps your line of thinking would be closer to other Christian sects then LDS thought.

 

I leave you with this this quote by C.S. Lewis which I’m posting again. I believe its truth, but you can take it any way you want. You can say God wants to destroy “Self” and “Personality” but that is not how I interpret this at ALL. I believe we will have greater individual personality and identity the closer we become like our Heavenly Father. I reject this idea we all become "Self"...again for the 100th time, which is where this discussion for me started and why I said that Heavenly Father takes joy in variety and so do most of us, like our Parents in Heaven. 

 

I also bid adieu to this thread as I have no desire to be cast again into the lowest kingdom with the rest of those who like eating something other than oatmeal every day and find joy in the company of others outside themselves. 

Again, I applaud you for expressing the beauty of this world along with our Beloved Prophets.  There is a time and place for everything.  The beauty of pre-school is not so beautiful if a bunch of 40 year olds were the students.  The variety and setting of this world was made for this test and this world.  It composes the agency before us.  Eventually though we have to choose, moving onto bigger stewardships or playing with crayons forever.  God does as He has always done for a reason, it is what brings the most joy.  I doubt we would arrive there and say, 'I've thought about this and I would prefer to try it my own way'.  There is only one way not a variety of ways, the path is single, narrow and straight, not many and winding.

 

You are comparing the joy in the variety of food and the variety of what we do to the need to have varied characters.  I don't see those as the same thing at all. We were talking about talents, characteristics, personalities etc.  I am not sure why you link that with the variety of trees, food, colors, whatever.  That doesn't make sense to me.

 

If so and so enjoys music, they don't have to be only one of 70% of people that enjoy music (or whatever the number is) to make it enjoyable.  Why would it matter to you if everyone around you enjoyed what you enjoy to the same level that you do?  Would you be disappointed if everyone understood the theory of relativity as well as Albert Einstein?  Would that ruin the variety you enjoy?  Would it disappoint you if everyone could compose music as well as Beethoven?  Or play soccer as well as Pele?  If so, then by definition, you delight in the deficiencies.  For me, I would love to be surrounded by people that can understand the theory of relativity as well as Einstein or play the piano as well as Beethoven or play soccer as well as Pele.  To me that is beautiful in that there is no deficiency, not that there is no variety.  I think you are looking at it from the wrong angle.

 

I don't understand the desire to have some people not like something as much as another for the sake of "variety" especially in a place where there is all time to reach the fullness.  100% of something is 100% (talking about talents, characteristics and personalities that one would describe as good).  For variety to exist there has to be something less than 100%.

 

Lets say God and Christ and anyone else in the Highest level of the Celestial Kingdom are given a pop quiz on any topic.  Would you venture to say there would be a variety of scores on the test?  I don't think so, I think they would all score 100%.  If you find that boring or unlivable then I am not sure what you are striving for.  Maybe it is because I don't understand the desire to strive for something less than 100%, less than being like our Heavenly Father in every way.  I think that is what is meant by having an eye single to His glory and not some lesser glory.

Edited by Seminarysnoozer
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