What will those in the bottom two kingdoms do after it is all over and done?

[The Folk Prophet]

--but I suppose to whom much is given much is required.

 

This.

[The Folk Prophet]

but how far do they progress? what happens to their life when they remain that way? combine that with living in an abyssmal situation, without access to what God knows.

 

Right. I don't necessarily disagree. My point is simply that the idea that true happiness comes from shallow ideas like creating art, hanging out with buddies, or skipping through the daisies is silly.

[Blackmarch]

Right. I don't necessarily disagree. My point is simply that the idea that true happiness comes from shallow ideas like creating art, hanging out with buddies, or skipping through the daisies is silly.

it's the other way around.

[jerome1232]

Right. I don't necessarily disagree. My point is simply that the idea that true happiness comes from shallow ideas like creating art, hanging out with buddies, or skipping through the daisies is silly.

I think this is the first time I've ever heard creating art, builiding relationships, and enjoying nature referred to as shallow activities. o.O

[Seminarysnoozer]

Right. I don't necessarily disagree. My point is simply that the idea that true happiness comes from shallow ideas like creating art, hanging out with buddies, or skipping through the daisies is silly.

Hanging out with buddies might.  True happiness is finding joy in the success of others.  True happiness is hardly ever something personally achieved but instead living beyond self.  This is why the greatest commandments are to love God with all our heart and to love our neighbor as self.  If everyone around us is "self" then true happiness can be achieved. Gods joy comes from the success of others, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

[The Folk Prophet]

I think this is the first time I've ever heard creating art, builiding relationships, and enjoying nature referred to as shallow activities. o.O

 

What is shallow, after all? It's all relative. Good, better, best. Enjoying nature is fine. Relative to true, eternal joy, I call it shallow. God's work and His glory, after all, is not to enjoy nature. It is, explicitly, to bring immortality and eternal life to man.  This is true glory, true joy, and where true value lies. All else is shallow in comparison. That doesn't mean it's wrong to enjoy nature. But it will not bring us true joy.

 

Perhaps, just maybe, true joy comes from being about our Father's business.  Don't you think?

[The Folk Prophet]

Hanging out with buddies might.  True happiness is finding joy in the success of others.  True happiness is hardly ever something personally achieved but instead living beyond self.  This is why the greatest commandments are to love God with all our heart and to love our neighbor as self.  If everyone around us is "self" then true happiness can be achieved. Gods joy comes from the success of others, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

 

If you interpret "hanging out" in a way other than wasting time chatting about meaningless drivel, sure. Hanging out can be part of bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of others.

 

This is not what I meant by "hanging out" though. Clearly -- because we're talking about two folk hanging out in lower kingdoms, wherein they've already lost their eternal life, and hanging out won't improve that situation. Hanging out, in such a case, cannot be viewed as a means to true joy. True joy will not exist anywhere except in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom.

 

If everyone around us is "self" then true happiness can be achieved.

 

Your idea of eternal life is strange. 

 

We are not Borg. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Resistance is futile.

[Seminarysnoozer]

If you interpret "hanging out" in a way other than wasting time chatting about meaningless drivel, sure. Hanging out can be part of bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of others.

 

This is not what I meant by "hanging out" though. Clearly -- because we're talking about two folk hanging out in lower kingdoms, wherein they've already lost their eternal life, and hanging out won't improve that situation. Hanging out, in such a case, cannot be viewed as a means to true joy. True joy will not exist anywhere except in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom.

 

 

Your idea of eternal life is strange. 

 

We are not Borg. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Resistance is futile.

There are degrees of joy, it is not an all or nothing thing.  However, there is a difference between eternal joy, joy without end, in other words, joy that is limitless versus joy that is limited.

 

As far as the borg reference goes, Satan loves to twist truths into things that sound bad and things that sound bad into things that are good.  The negative connotations are man-made created by the evil intentions of man. God does not have evil intentions and I wouldn't paint the ability to have charity (to love someone as self and to feel their suffering and their experiences to that level) as some evil force.  To mourn with those that mourn, for Jesus to feel our pains as we did is in no way related to some Star Trek man made idea of that ability. 

 

Can you hide any experience from God, can you hide any thought from God, can you hide any desire from God, can God not see what you have learned and your progress, your joys and happiness, not only see them but feel them, experience them?

 

IOne may think this sounds like the borg, then so be it but that perception is jaded by the evil intentions of man; "12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do."

 

And this sounds really borg-like for those that see it that way, (Alma 7) "11 And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people.

 12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.

 13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me."

 

How about this "borg like" description of those in the Celestial Kingdom; (D&C 130) " But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.

 8 The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.

 9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.

 10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

 11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word."

 

If one does not like the idea of being in a place where all is known and all is clear, like a crystal and all things are continually before the Lord, then they will make it sound like a horrible thing.  The individual that doesn't like that idea would prefer to hide from God or believe even that they could hide from God.

 

If God has the ability to see all things; no experience, no perspective, no thought, no understanding, no learning is hidden from him (this includes all the thoughts of all the people) then why would you think that anybody who achieves the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom would not also have that ability?   If you want to say that sounds more borg-like than Celestial then you are allowing the carnal mind to overpower the truth of the spirit and letting it seem like something bad instead of good.  I think the idea of knowing everyone around us so initmately (which is charity) is a beautiful thing and a Celestial thing and to me the opposite of any evil borg-like description.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Seminarysnoozer

[The Folk Prophet]

As far as the borg reference goes, Satan loves to twist truths into things that sound bad and things that sound bad into things that are good.  

 

Thank you. Now I understand that my point of view is inspired by Satan.

[physicswakko]

Well, I am reading a lot of opinions on the matter and not much in terms of sciptures to back anything up. Although I do recognize the Ensign, Institute Manual, and Talmage as reputable sources, they received their information somewhere, not just mystically through the internet or newspaper, wichever existed in their day.

 

As for what is written regarding the subject, Alma 41:3-5 and D&C 88:32 seem to cover the subject fairly well.

 

Alma 41:3-5 - We are raised in happiness according to our desire for happiness, raised in evil according to our desire for evil.

 

D&C 88:32 - "...To enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received."

 

Alma is paraphrased, D&C quoted. From these scriptures, I have formed my conclusion (which follows)  that we will be happy with what is returned to us after this mortal estate. We act, react, despise, and enjoy the things here that we will in our next estate. We will still be us; no miraculous change in our personality to make us suddenly not enjoy those things of our life here which brought us enjoyment. The same goes for the despisement of things. Our end result will be something that we will enjoy, due to our lives 'focusing' in on that 'enjoyment,' the direction of our life as a whole. In the end, if you don't know how good something is, you won't miss not having it. If you are not acting to the level of Celestial Glory in mortality, you won't miss it and you will be enjoying fully whatever befalls you in Judgement.

 

That being said, they may go on forever, maybe improving themselves to ultimately reach the maximum which can be obtained from their starting point under the auspice of Eternal Progression.

[jerome1232]

Asymptotes, we can have eternal progression while still having a line you can never progress past.

Just a thought.

[theSQUIDSTER]

A few years ago Elder Neal A. Maxwell gave a talk entitled "Content with the Things Allotted unto Us" ..

 

One thing that I often remember from that talk is this:

 

"Alma’s contentment rested on the reality that God finally allots to us according to our wills (see Alma 29:4). What could be more fair?"

 

To me that says we wind up getting what we most desire and pursue.  It also says to me, be careful what you wish for... you just might get it.  If all we seek after and learn to love resides only in this world (i.e. telestial law) then how can we expect heaven to be anything more than a telestial heaven.  Which, granted, is still a heaven.. a degree of glory beyond what this mortality offers.  Probably more of a heaven than most people could imagine.. so a great reward, if you will.  That being said... Our Father is trying to help us learn to want what He wants... which is so much more... Celestial heaven can be learned.. not earned... Isn't that what we're trying to do? Learn to be celestial? What we're actively engaged in becoming and longing for is where we'll feel we belong in the end... That will be heaven for us, whether telestial, terrestrial or celestial. As for those who don't want ANYTHING our Father has to offer, well, he won't force them to take anything. They will live somewhere without glory... probably a lonely dark corner somewhere... probably alone, I would imagine.

[prisonchaplain]

Question:  Revelation speaks of God being the light that illumines heaven.  If this is true of the lower kingdoms, then even they will experience an unimaginably better existence.  The way I explain it is that compared to heaven, we currently see in gray scale.  Those that saw the movie The Giver (or even Pleasantville) will recall when the main character began to see in color.  Heaven...perhaps even the Telestial realm, will be like that.

[Windseeker]

There are degrees of joy, it is not an all or nothing thing.  However, there is a difference between eternal joy, joy without end, in other words, joy that is limitless versus joy that is limited.

 

As far as the borg reference goes, Satan loves to twist truths into things that sound bad and things that sound bad into things that are good.  The negative connotations are man-made created by the evil intentions of man. God does not have evil intentions and I wouldn't paint the ability to have charity (to love someone as self and to feel their suffering and their experiences to that level) as some evil force.  To mourn with those that mourn, for Jesus to feel our pains as we did is in no way related to some Star Trek man made idea of that ability. 

 

Can you hide any experience from God, can you hide any thought from God, can you hide any desire from God, can God not see what you have learned and your progress, your joys and happiness, not only see them but feel them, experience them?

 

IOne may think this sounds like the borg, then so be it but that perception is jaded by the evil intentions of man; "12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do."

 

And this sounds really borg-like for those that see it that way, (Alma 7) "11 And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people.

 12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.

 13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me."

 

How about this "borg like" description of those in the Celestial Kingdom; (D&C 130) " But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.

 8 The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.

 9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.

 10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

 11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word."

 

If one does not like the idea of being in a place where all is known and all is clear, like a crystal and all things are continually before the Lord, then they will make it sound like a horrible thing.  The individual that doesn't like that idea would prefer to hide from God or believe even that they could hide from God.

 

If God has the ability to see all things; no experience, no perspective, no thought, no understanding, no learning is hidden from him (this includes all the thoughts of all the people) then why would you think that anybody who achieves the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom would not also have that ability?   If you want to say that sounds more borg-like than Celestial then you are allowing the carnal mind to overpower the truth of the spirit and letting it seem like something bad instead of good.  I think the idea of knowing everyone around us so initmately (which is charity) is a beautiful thing and a Celestial thing and to me the opposite of any evil borg-like description.

 

What does any of that have to do with "Self"?

 

Certainly we lose ourselves to find ourselves but we still retain our individuality and our distinctness. 

 

You can't have it both ways where our Heavenly Father delights in variety but desires an outcome where we are a hive mind. 

 

Here is a great talk on the subject - 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/06/eternal-principles-of-government-a-theological-approach?lang=eng

 

 

Satan is seen as having committed a premortal sin by attempting to force community at the cost of man’s individuality and agency.

 

We need to be careful about how we speak of these things. Like Elder Maxwell is here - 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1995/10/swallowed-up-in-the-will-of-the-father?lang=eng

 

 

So many of us are kept from eventual consecration because we mistakenly think that, somehow, by letting our will be swallowed up in the will of God, we lose our individuality (see Mosiah 15:7). What we are really worried about, of course, is not giving up self, but selfish things—like our roles, our time, our preeminence, and our possessions. No wonder we are instructed by the Savior to lose ourselves (see Luke 9:24). He is only asking us to lose the old self in order to find the new self. It is not a question of one’s losing identity but of finding his true identity! Ironically, so many people already lose themselves anyway in their consuming hobbies and preoccupations but with far, far lesser things

Edited November 19, 2014 by Windseeker

[Seminarysnoozer]

What does any of that have to do with "Self"?

 

Certainly we lose ourselves to find ourselves but we still retain our individuality and our distinctness. 

 

You can't have it both ways where our Heavenly Father delights in variety but desires an outcome where we are a hive mind. 

 

Here is a great talk on the subject - 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/06/eternal-principles-of-government-a-theological-approach?lang=eng

 

 

We need to be careful about how we speak of these things. Like Elder Maxwell is here - 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1995/10/swallowed-up-in-the-will-of-the-father?lang=eng

The only reference to the word variety in the talk you referenced was this "Family and church government would be sensitive to this principle in a variety of ways."  So, I am not sure why you referenced the article in the first place.  Can you show me some other references where our "Heavenly Father delights in variety".  I think one has to distinguish that from having many kinds of things.  Variety is different than having many kinds or types of animals, plants etc.  Where does it say that God delights in the variety of man?   He only made one man and one woman according to our scripture.  That does not sound like variety to me.

[Traveler]

It is my belief that we are not assigned to a kingdom - I kind of go along with C. S. Lewis in his book "The Great Divorce".  That is that people are where they are because that is what they want more than anything else.

 

I do not believe in a G-d that abandons souls in Hell that are begging and pleading for mercy and deliverance.   I have sinned sufficiently to realize that what I thought would be okay or fun for a moment was mistake.  My G-d is merciful and kind and always gives the option to repent of and be rid of sins.  It is my understanding that the only ones that get to enjoy their sin for eternity are those that love such sins more than repentance and being rid of them.  For those that choose not to be Celestial, I do have difficulty understanding why they are such but I do respect their right to agency to make that choice and see no reason to think or believe I ought to change that choice for them - I believe that to be Satan's failed plan.

[Windseeker]

The only reference to the word variety in the talk you referenced was this "Family and church government would be sensitive to this principle in a variety of ways."  So, I am not sure why you referenced the article in the first place.  Can you show me some other references where our "Heavenly Father delights in variety".  I think one has to distinguish that from having many kinds of things.  Variety is different than having many kinds or types of animals, plants etc.  Where does it say that God delights in the variety of man?   He only made one man and one woman according to our scripture.  That does not sound like variety to me.

 

I don't have a specific scripture and perhaps my logic is flawed, but even before I was instructed in our temples, I knew that Heavenly Father loves not one kind of tree, bush, bird, or rock but lots of different kinds. When I saw that the atonement was extended to all mankind, I looked at mankind and saw that mankind is made up of many different races and cultures and that each person is unique and special. I've even heard that we don't even share the same talents and that each of us also has different challenges in this life. 

 

I think Heavenly Father must like all different kinds of things. I don't think he wants us all being exactly the same. I know I like different things and if there was only one kind of tree or bird or fish I would be bored out of my mind. It's the same with People. 

 

I always liked this quote by C.S. Lewis

 

 

“There are no real personalities apart from God. Until you have given up your self to Him you will not have a real self. Sameness is to be found most among the most 'natural' men, not among those who surrender to Christ. How monotonously alike all the great tyrants and conquerers have been; how gloriously different are the saints.

 

There is something in me that doesn't like the idea of being anybody else. I think our individuality is a good thing and something in me tells me our personality goes way way back even before this life.

 

I don't think I'm the only one who enjoys how diverse our the leaders of our Church. All these righteous men and women who are vastly different in looks and personality. They look similar (no beards, same hairstyle, corporate business attire) but when they speak their differences in humor, temperament, experience, education all come out. 

 

I don't think it's part of Heavenly Father's plan to give up the things that make us individuals and special. It goes against everything I believe.

[Windseeker]

..From the quote in my previous post.

 

The principle of man’s natural communality is seen in Latter-day Saint theology, not as the antithesis of his individuality or his agency, but rather as the means by which his individuality is both fully attained and rewarded, or “added upon.” 

 

[The Folk Prophet]

It is my belief that we are not assigned to a kingdom - I kind of go along with C. S. Lewis in his book "The Great Divorce".  That is that people are where they are because that is what they want more than anything else.

 

We've had this discussion before I think, and I don't mean to re-hash everything, but I think it behooves us to consider the varied meanings of the usage of the word "want" in this regard.

 

I do not believe in a G-d that abandons souls in Hell that are begging and pleading for mercy and deliverance.   

 

I'm not so sure Alma agrees with you.

 

It is my understanding that the only ones that get to enjoy their sin for eternity are those that love such sins more than repentance and being rid of them. 

 

Then your understanding is askew.

 

Wickedness never was happiness.

[Traveler]

We've had this discussion before I think, and I don't mean to re-hash everything, but I think it behooves us to consider the varied meanings of the usage of the word "want" in this regard.

 

 

I'm not so sure Alma agrees with you.

 

 

Then your understanding is askew.

 

Wickedness never was happiness.

 

If no one ever thought they could find some joy in sin - no sin would ever be commuted.  Note there is a difference in enjoying sin and happiness as described by Alma

 

I am interested in any scripture you have that someone willing to repent (even if they are in bondage) will not be delivered.  Here are a few to counter that thought:

 

Doctrine and Covenants 19:16

Doctrine and Covenants 138:31

Alma 24:11

Edited November 20, 2014 by Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I don't have a specific scripture and perhaps my logic is flawed, but even before I was instructed in our temples, I knew that Heavenly Father loves not one kind of tree, bush, bird, or rock but lots of different kinds. When I saw that the atonement was extended to all mankind, I looked at mankind and saw that mankind is made up of many different races and cultures and that each person is unique and special. I've even heard that we don't even share the same talents and that each of us also has different challenges in this life. 

 

I think Heavenly Father must like all different kinds of things. I don't think he wants us all being exactly the same. I know I like different things and if there was only one kind of tree or bird or fish I would be bored out of my mind. It's the same with People. 

 

I always liked this quote by C.S. Lewis

 

There is something in me that doesn't like the idea of being anybody else. I think our individuality is a good thing and something in me tells me our personality goes way way back even before this life.

 

I don't think I'm the only one who enjoys how diverse our the leaders of our Church. All these righteous men and women who are vastly different in looks and personality. They look similar (no beards, same hairstyle, corporate business attire) but when they speak their differences in humor, temperament, experience, education all come out. 

 

I don't think it's part of Heavenly Father's plan to give up the things that make us individuals and special. It goes against everything I believe.

For this life variety is needed, it is what sets up the tests we face and the struggles we face.  It is as a result of the Fall of Adam and Eve that we have variability as part of the mortal condition.

 

God wants us to be one with Him.  The purpose of the atonement is to give man in all his variety a chance to become one with God.  It is a way out of the variety.  Gods path has always been narrow and straight.  There is not a variety of ways to reach God.  It may start out varied but the end path is like the tip of arrow head, it becomes more and more of one type.

 

God wants us to have all that He has.  If we are so fortunate to have all in the next life then one persons "all" would not look any different than another person's "all".   Let me ask you, is there any talent or ability that God does not possess?  Is there any unique trait that is good that God does not also possess.  Let's say someone has a love for music and a talent for playing the piano.  Would you say that the person could possibly love music or have a talent for playing the piano more than God?

 

Variability in talents is as a result of deficiencies.  The reason we say one person has a talent for something is because others do not have it.  It would be strange, for example, if I said I have a talent for breathing.  It isn't a "talent" if everybody does it.  In a place where there is no deficiencies, where everyone has all then nobody would even say "I have a talent for music" or "I have a talent for baking cookies" or whatever it is.  Nobody there would say, "I am a cook" or "I am a soccer player" anymore than someone here would say "I am a shirt wearer".  We could still have different assignments and therefore take on different roles but there would be no reason to box someone into an assignment over another because that is "what they do".  A person that has all talents and is all knowing is called God, that is the only label for such a being and there is only one (type of) God.

 

If one likes variety, there is a place for that described in the scriptures as 'one star differing from another'.  But as for the Celestial Kingdom it is described as one body as the Sun is one body.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Seminarysnoozer

[Seminarysnoozer]

 

Then your understanding is askew.

 

Wickedness never was happiness.

Could any form of wickedness be associated with a Kingdom of glory?  Can one have glory and wickedness at the same time?  Can we be wicked and qualify for the eternal presence of even the Holy Ghost?  I think we are taught that wickedness causes us to not be in the presence of the Holy Ghost.  So, the only people that are currently here that may not end up in some state of happiness are those that become the sons of perdition.  But liars and murders and all those that make up the Telestial Kingdom will be in a state of happiness.

 

I think every knee will bend, every one will have been paid in full by the time they reach their respective Kingdom of Glory, whether it is through the atonement vs time in spirit prison until they are fully repentant and suffered, I don't think it would be possible to receive a glorified body of any kind and still carry the burden of wickedness.  ... keep in mind we all here are righteous, we all kept the first estate, we all believe in Christ and God's plan, just some of us have forgotten about our beliefs but they will recall soon enough.

[Windseeker]

For this life variety is needed, it is what sets up the tests we face and the struggles we face.  It is as a result of the Fall of Adam and Eve that we have variability as part of the mortal condition.

 

We know that variety is not a result of the Fall because all things were created spiritually before they were created physically and were placed on this earth far before Adam and Eve fell. From my understanding life on this earth will die but life being first made spiritually is Eternal and won't be destroyed but perfected, which I assume means something other then a Douglas Fir becoming a Palm Tree or vice versa.

 

 

God wants us to be one with Him.  The purpose of the atonement is to give man in all his variety a chance to become one with God.  It is a way out of the variety.  Gods path has always been narrow and straight.  There is not a variety of ways to reach God.  It may start out varied but the end path is like the tip of arrow head, it becomes more and more of one type.

 

From the C.S. Lewis quote and again from the article on the Eternal Principles of Goverment - 

"All these principles of liberty flow together toward two preeminent principles—a harmony of the one and the many, with man’s god-like individuality on the one hand and his natural, uncoerced communality on the other. These two principles provide at once the origin and the apex of all other governmental principles."

 

The reason this is important is that it points to the way we will be governed in the Eternities. There is no harmony if we are all singing the same exact note. Our individuality is so important that it was Satan's plan to wipe it out. I don't even think it's possible to have agency without individuality and "self". And as far as I know our agency will never be taken away. 

 

Following the straight and narrow path will only help us find our identity not lose it. It's a path toward more individuality, more freedom and away from sin which threatens both.

 

 

 

God wants us to have all that He has.  If we are so fortunate to have all in the next life then one persons "all" would not look any different than another person's "all".   Let me ask you, is there any talent or ability that God does not possess?  Is there any unique trait that is good that God does not also possess.  Let's say someone has a love for music and a talent for playing the piano.  Would you say that the person could possibly love music or have a talent for playing the piano more than God?

 

I think anyone that discovers who discovers beauty in this life, whether in nature or art, you quickly learn that perfection does not mean one song or one painting or one face. I can think of many perfect piano pieces that were created and played by completely different composers. Yet they are not the same, not even close.

 

Do you consider our individual personalities an imperfection?

 

again..how different are the saints....and how different are the Prophets of Old and our Modern Prophets. 

 

What comes to mind when I say Benson, Kimball, Hinckley, Monson? I too love how different they are from each other. 

 

 

If one likes variety, there is a place for that described in the scriptures as 'one star differing from another'.  

 

Thank you, I find that very comforting.

 

 

But as for the Celestial Kingdom it is described as one body as the Sun is one body.

 

One body that contains three heavens or degrees. 

 

You used D&C 130 to describe the "borg like" conditions in the next life but left out the very premise of that society which is this - 

 

 2 And that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy.

 

The sociality that exists now consists of individuals who by their own agency chose to associate with one another.

 

I think there is some truth to the eastern faiths idea of joining with God. As you quote in D&C we will be able to instantly know the will of God. I think this earth will be celestialized but I don't believe we all become one "Self". 

 

We find joy in variety, in personality, in individuality and certainly community. I don't think Heavenly Father is different.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Windseeker

[The Folk Prophet]

If no one ever thought they could find some joy in sin - no sin would ever be commuted.  Note there is a difference in enjoying sin and happiness as described by Alma

 

What people "think" is irrelevant. Of course people "think" they'll find joy in sin.

 

I am interested in any scripture you have that someone willing to repent (even if they are in bondage) will not be delivered.  Here are a few to counter that thought:

 

Doctrine and Covenants 19:16

Doctrine and Covenants 138:31

Alma 24:11

 

Alma 4:24

[The Folk Prophet]

Could any form of wickedness be associated with a Kingdom of glory? 

 

This is irrelevant to the discussion. I don't know the answer. But it has nothing to do with whether God will universally leave souls in Hell who are begging for mercy and deliverance or not.

 

The conditions of salvation are not the begging for it any way you cut it. Neither are the conditions of exaltation.

 

We will be rewarded according to plain standards of obedience to God's laws and ordinances. If we choose to disregard these, then we cannot be saved*. Period. We will also merit other kingdoms of glory based on strict standards. Begging for something different on judgment day will not make any difference.

 

 

* and just so we're clear, by "saved" I mean fully saved, as in Exaltation -- as these discussions often degrade into semantics around such things.

 

So, the only people that are currently here that may not end up in some state of happiness are those that become the sons of perdition.  But liars and murders and all those that make up the Telestial Kingdom will be in a state of happiness.

 

I'd be interested to see a quote, scripture, or otherwise that says those in the Telestial kingdom will be happy.