Brigham Quote - Why aren't we all rich?

[Blackmarch]

An interesting Brigham Young quote for discussion.

 

"If the Latter-day Saints will walk up to their privileges, and exercise faith in the name of Jesus Christ, and live in the enjoyment of the fulness of the Holy Ghost constantly day by day, there is nothing on the face of the earth that they could ask for, that would not be given to them.  The Lord is waiting to be very gracious unto this people, and to pour out upon them riches, honor, glory and power, even that they may possess all things according to the promises he has made through his Apostles and Prophets"

 

Thoughts?

we are. It was interesting listening to my friend who started his own company when he was trying to get the town council to ok his permit or whatever that they had to do so that he could legally get his company going. He had prayed and fasted for it to go through... and not only did it go through but it only took an hour or something like that. one of older council members told him that was the first time he had seen the process go by so quickly.

an interesting talk I heard that has stuck with me is that when God wants something to be built or done he will pour out the blessings on those who pay tithing so that there will be enought tithes to get the job done.

[The Folk Prophet]

we are.

 

Maybe more accurately... some are.

 

an interesting talk I heard that has stuck with me is that when God wants something to be built or done he will pour out the blessings on those who pay tithing so that there will be enought tithes to get the job done.

 

Based on the growth and needs of the church then, I expect we'll all be getting richer very soon.

[Traveler]

We are all rich - but some people will only count stuff that really does not matter much before they will realize their riches.

[The Folk Prophet]

We are all rich 

 

We are, huh? Even those without homes, cars, clothing, family, health, or any other worldly thing.

 

We're just gonna call anything rich because it suits some odd sense of satisfaction to do so?

 

What's the use of having a word if we ignore its actual meaning?

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

An interesting Brigham Young quote for discussion.

 

"If the Latter-day Saints will walk up to their privileges, and exercise faith in the name of Jesus Christ, and live in the enjoyment of the fulness of the Holy Ghost constantly day by day, 

 

Maybe the problem is right here.  What does it mean to walk up to our privileges?  Maybe we are not exercising enough faith . . . perhaps we aren't living in the enjoyment of the fullness of the Holy Ghost.

 

I think the answer lies right there.

[Anddenex]

An interesting Brigham Young quote for discussion.

 

"If the Latter-day Saints will walk up to their privileges, and exercise faith in the name of Jesus Christ, and live in the enjoyment of the fulness of the Holy Ghost constantly day by day, there is nothing on the face of the earth that they could ask for, that would not be given to them.  The Lord is waiting to be very gracious unto this people, and to pour out upon them riches, honor, glory and power, even that they may possess all things according to the promises he has made through his Apostles and Prophets"

 

Thoughts?

 

Principle #1 - Ask and Ye Shall Receive 

 

The principle shared that, "nothing on the face of the earth that they could ask for, that would not be given to them," is double edged.  The double edge is the law of opposites -- opposite minds -- good vs. evil, or mind of Christ (spiritually minded) or the mind of the adversary (carnally minded).  

 

Carnally minded refers to a selfish -- save your life title of liberty.  Spiritually minded refers to "loose oneself title of liberty."  The  book of Jacob sheds some additional light (Jacob 4:6), "Wherefore, we search the prophets...and our faith becometh unshaken, insomuch that we truly can command in the name of Jesus and the very trees obey us, or the mountains, or the waves of the sea."  What we ask shall be given; what we command shall be done.

 

In relation to what we ask, Joseph Smith declared (Doctrine & Covenants 46: 28-30), "And it shall come to pass that he that asketh in Spirit shall receive in Spirit...He that sketch in the Spirit sketch according to the will of God; wherefore it is done even as he asketh."

 

When a person has reached this level of righteousness, the mind of Christ, they request (ask) in the right spirit -- and in the right spirit the request is granted.  Evidence, Nephi when the Lord said (Helaman 10:5), "behold, I will bless thee forever; and I will make thee mighty in word and in deed, in faith and in works; yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word."  And why is our Lord willing to give so freely, "for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will."

 

The question is, if we were to obtain the same mind -- the mind of Christ -- what would our asking be like?  Would we have riches (financially) or would we also be one who would say, "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but [we have not a place to lay our head]."

 

We know the Lord will not answer the carnal man's every desire, every request; yet, we also know that God will give unto his children according to their desires even if it turns against them (Alma 29:4), "I ought not to harrow up in my desires the firm decree of a just God...I know that he allotteth unto men, yea, decreeth unto them decrees which are unalterable, according to their wills, whether they be unto salvation or destruction."

 

Principle #2 - Ask and Ye Shall Receive -- Riches

 

Personally, I am not sure if there is a particular law of riches by which if the children of God obey they receive the predicated blessing.  

 

While attending BYU, I remember my American Heritage class regarding successful careers.  One of the examples shown were two young men who were bar tenders at a local pub.  They had no goals drive except to be bartenders.  They were drunks.  One day, after a late night at the bar, coming home drunk, they were rough housing and one ripped his pant leg.  He cut his pant leg off and wore it on his head.  The next night at work, he wore his cut off pant leg on his head.  To his surprise people began asking to purchase his pant leg.  This ended up as a million dollar business.  What law was obeyed that riches were bestowed upon them?

 

I have watched others work very hard without any form of success, while I have watched others who have been — lucky.  I have watched others work very hard and due to their efforts, intelligence, they have been successful. 

Edited November 14, 2014 by Anddenex

[2ndRateMind]

Rich isn't the problem. I want everyone rich. The issue is, rich when others are so poor they starve.

 

As for virtue. Well, that is said to be it's own reward. And it is one that cannot be taken from you.

 

Best wishes, 2RM.

Edited November 15, 2014 by 2ndRateMind

[Seminarysnoozer]

An interesting Brigham Young quote for discussion.

 

"If the Latter-day Saints will walk up to their privileges, and exercise faith in the name of Jesus Christ, and live in the enjoyment of the fulness of the Holy Ghost constantly day by day, there is nothing on the face of the earth that they could ask for, that would not be given to them.  The Lord is waiting to be very gracious unto this people, and to pour out upon them riches, honor, glory and power, even that they may possess all things according to the promises he has made through his Apostles and Prophets"

 

Thoughts?

The quote, if one reads it carefully, does not really say when those things will be given to the saints.  It is just saying if you desire any of those things and do so while being guided by the Holy Ghost then the Lord is willing to give those things according to the promises made through his Apostles and Prophets - in other words, the promises made by covenants, all things will be given to the faithful.  Receiving everything God has eventually, in other words, requires a desire for it but that doesn't necessarily mean desiring it for use in this life except under the circumstances by which the Holy Ghost guides it for this life.  Otherwise, he is talking about receiving all God has in the next life.  

[sxfritz]

We all go through life with filters. Many of us Americans believe we should be rich; that being rich is a goal.  Fact is, not everyone wants to be rich. Some never envision themselves with more money than they need. I would agree with many of the comments made, but would be careful to use trite quotes as a crutch as to why one (we) is not rich. Fact is, some don't care - and it is with them that I agree most.

[Drpepper]

Unfortunately, some members associate wealth ( in the worldly sense) with some form or level of righteous lds living. Perhaps a look at the top 500 listed companies and who started them may help adjust that thinking. Sadly to some, there simply is no pin code to Zion's bank disclosed to members who freshly come forth from the waters of baptism. If anything the scriptures paint a different story. " Christ said foxes have holes and birds nest but the son of man hath nowhere to lay his head". Peter replied on the steps of the temple. " silver and gold have I none" and Amulek who did have wealth and status lost it all when accepting his call to peach the Gospel with Alma. Perhaps as so one else alluded to here that if God did grant unto us an abundance of wealth we too like the prodigal would squander it away loosing both it and ourselves in the very act. Like most conversations around lds members and money the young rich man from the scriptures makes a cameo right on cue for his usual public trial of who not to be like. What they fail to see is this story has very little to do with money, and more to do with giving up that which keeps us from following Christ. Unfortunately for him it was money, but for us it could be a buffett of different vices. Some people grow up despising money, too many lessons on money being the root of all evil or talks on " you can' t take it with you has left a psychological scar which see money fall through their fingers easily. While they would like more of it they no longer prioritse it over spiritual things. They spend a great deal of mental energy balancing the guilt line between the tree of life and the great and spacious building. Some refuse or have never learn't the principles for both obtaining, retaining and multiplying money that the children of this generation may have learnt making them wiser than the children of light as recorded in the parable. Perhaps the most sad comparison to money and members is that obtained to righteousness. Yep that money is often associated with position in the church. This type of flawed thinking is often rolled out in the same sentance like. Did you know the new stake president is the CEO of a mining company? Church leaders have addressed this already. I knew a Bishop who was in finance when the GFC hit and was out of work for 6 months while serving as a Bishop in a large ward. He never complained, never murmured and never counted his blessings by the number of coins in his possession.

[Seminarysnoozer]

We all go through life with filters. Many of us Americans believe we should be rich; that being rich is a goal.  Fact is, not everyone wants to be rich. Some never envision themselves with more money than they need. I would agree with many of the comments made, but would be careful to use trite quotes as a crutch as to why one (we) is not rich. Fact is, some don't care - and it is with them that I agree most.

(This comment isn't aimed at you, just using your statement as a starting point for my comment)

The flip side of that is that some people make poverty a virture.  My parents do that.  I grew up in an area of San Diego where there is a lot of disparity in wealth, next to La Jolla for those that know San Diego and the ward area is large, it encompased 4 high schools. So, my parents, while I was growing up, would tell me that wealth is a curse and essentially a sign of unrighteousness.  I think that is the opposite extreme.

 

Wealth is not a sin or a sign of loving money more than anything else, necessarily.  The love of money is the problem and that cannot be judged by the size of one's house or how many cars one owns etc.  Growing up with that disparity and growing up in very humble setting (qualifying for almost every government assistance program, for example) and now having what most would call wealth, I would say that just as many poor as rich focus on money in this country.  They focus on the fact that they don't have it but want it or they focus on the fact that they have it and want more. So, just being poor alone is not a virtue.  The problem is not something any of us can easily detect from an outward perspective, it is a passion of the heart problem which only God can judge.

 

At the same time, I believe if one has wealth they should not flaunt it, they should not be outwardly in the "spacious building".  If one flaunts their wealth it only assists the calling attention to it more, either for their self or others.  This is true even when the 'calling attention' to is results in negative comments - 'did you see the size of that diamond on her finger?' etc.   The eye of envy would stil be called a love of money even if one doesn't have it.  This is why I refuse to read or subscribe to magazines or watch television shows that promote the following of celebrities and what they wear or what they own.  The culture of; 'Did you see how much she paid for that house?  Did you see what she wore to the awards ceremony? ... contributes to the love of money as well.

[Blackmarch]

I'd also like to point out that if a person lives the godly life, there are many principles that are contained therein that lead to wealth. Family, happiness, sustenance, life, even wealth is all affected positively sooner or later- even if they must pass through the valley of death first.

Malachi

 8 ¶Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

 9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

 10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

what more can you ask for?
 

 

[Roseslipper]

I am rich I am very rich but I am rich in the spiritual things not in the worldly things in the spiritual things I can have everything hopefully someday in the worldly things I have very little but I know that I am rich because I know I am a child of God his riches bring me more blessings and happiness enjoy even in my struggles

[mordorbund]

An interesting Brigham Young quote for discussion.

 

"If the Latter-day Saints will walk up to their privileges, and exercise faith in the name of Jesus Christ, and live in the enjoyment of the fulness of the Holy Ghost constantly day by day, there is nothing on the face of the earth that they could ask for, that would not be given to them.  The Lord is waiting to be very gracious unto this people, and to pour out upon them riches, honor, glory and power, even that they may possess all things according to the promises he has made through his Apostles and Prophets"

 

Thoughts?

 

You want to talk about riches? As it is today, we have a welfare system that puts the US government's to shame. If we exercised our faith and walked up to our privileges there would be no poor in our stakes. Not only that, but each family would have a such a surplus as to provide for themselves for a year.

 

You want to talk about honor and glory? As it is today, we are at the forefront in matters of family values. So much so, that any symposium on the subject is quite lacking without us. If we exercised our faith and walked up to our privileges, then those who wanted to shake up the traditional stance would no longer argue "you already have marriage and you're not doing such a great job with it; it's time to give us a chance". Such statements would have no teeth because we would be honored with the counter "the Mormons seem to have it right". Instead of talking about ideals, we would be the control group of any study (honor and glory!).

 

You want to talk about power? As it is today, we are already over-represented in politics on both sides of the aisle. Additionally we are in every business under the sun. If we exercised our faith and walked up to our privileges we would see a more moral people through the influence of example and not the power of law. Additionally our businessmen would not be indistinguishable from the businessmen of today.

 

If we exercised our faith and walked up to our privileges we would have Zion and those not of our faith would come flocking, giving us glory and honor, for in Zion there is peace and prosperity.

[classylady]

In 3rd Nephi 19:9, it has always impressed me "And they did pray for that which they most desired; and they desired that the Holy Ghost should be given unto them." IMO, if we have the Holy Ghost, we will know what to pray for. If we are meant to have riches, if we are close enough to the Spirit, I believe we will know that is what we should pray for. And, I do believe we will be given that which we ask.

 

Currently, by America's standards, I would suppose that my husband and I are living in poverty. When reading where the poverty level of income is, we certainly qualify.  We nearly lost our home to foreclosure, and for all intents and purposes, we probably should have had our house foreclosed on.  But, we got a letter from our mortgage company telling us that we qualify for a reduction in our mortgage payment.  For us, that means the difference between being homeless and having a roof over our heads.  Our prayers had been that if possible, to please allow us to stay in our home.  Our prayers were answered.  And, I truly believe it is because we have paid our tithing.  It does not mean that it will be easy to make our mortgage payment.  After our house payment, we only have $200 dollars to pay all other bills, food, utilities, etc.  But, this reduction in mortgage, and a time frame to pay our mortgage payments on time allows us to find employment. It means we still have a roof over our heads (at least for the time being).  

 

I believe that my husband and I are rich.  We have the gospel.  And, not only do we have the gospel, but we have strong testimonies of the gospel.  That knowledge, IMO, makes us richer than most in the world.

[Traveler]

We are, huh? Even those without homes, cars, clothing, family, health, or any other worldly thing.

 

We're just gonna call anything rich because it suits some odd sense of satisfaction to do so?

 

What's the use of having a word if we ignore its actual meaning?

 

I will try to explain from some insight to my past.  I was raised in a good home by goodly parents.  Like Nephi my father accumulated a great deal of wealth - But unlike Lehi it was not in gold and silver but in real estate.  The need for money was not a big priority for me.  When I returned from my mission I started a business, drove a nifty sports car (57 Triumph - paid for), lived at home and went to BYU (which was 2 blocks from my child hood home).  In many ways I was poor and had difficulties adjusting to life after loosing several friends in Vietnam that I served with in the military prior to my mission.  In short I was angry. 

 

A native American companion I had during my mission convinced me to find my spiritual roots in what he called a "Dream Quest".  I walked away from "civilization" into the wilderness to live on only what G-d would provide.  I took with me a rope and an knife. 

 

It took a couple of weeks but I finely learned how truly rich it is to be a son of G-d on such an abundant planet.  The earth shared with me great riches to grant my every need.  Not so much my wants but all my needs and then some to spare.  If I needed water - I was given water.  If I needed food - I was given food to sustain me and not once did the food make me sick.  But when I returned and tried to adjust again to the food of "civilization"; I got very sick.

 

One of my interesting experiences when I finely walked out of the desert of southern Utah - I walked to the Saint George temple and in rags that had not been washed or changed for 40 days - I laid on the grass of the temple grounds and was amazed at the sense of smell I had.  I closed my eyes and could smell the different kinds of grass around me as well as the separate trees and flowers.  A temple security person approached me and was one of the first persons I talked to following my 40 days in the wilderness - He smelled like a cow - most likely from the milk he drank and I could still smell his breakfast on his breath. 

 

We do not own houses, cars or even the shirt on our back - These things are all on loan to us while we live our mortal lives.  I honestly believe most live and die never realizing their riches and the great abundances that is ours.  Those 40 days have given me many things - one of the greatest things is in understanding riches are not owned - if we try to own riches they will in slave and own us.  Riches is not in owning but in appreciating and thankfulness.  Like the old song said - "We don't know what we've got til it gone."  My most valued assets that make me rich in every way are not liquid by the world's standards and their value is in keeping and caring - not in trading for money or bartering for things. 

[Seminarysnoozer]

I will try to explain from some insight to my past.  I was raised in a good home by goodly parents.  Like Nephi my father accumulated a great deal of wealth - But unlike Lehi it was not in gold and silver but in real estate.  The need for money was not a big priority for me.  When I returned from my mission I started a business, drove a nifty sports car (57 Triumph - paid for), lived at home and went to BYU (which was 2 blocks from my child hood home).  In many ways I was poor and had difficulties adjusting to life after loosing several friends in Vietnam that I served with in the military prior to my mission.  In short I was angry. 

 

A native American companion I had during my mission convinced me to find my spiritual roots in what he called a "Dream Quest".  I walked away from "civilization" into the wilderness to live on only what G-d would provide.  I took with me a rope and an knife. 

 

It took a couple of weeks but I finely learned how truly rich it is to be a son of G-d on such an abundant planet.  The earth shared with me great riches to grant my every need.  Not so much my wants but all my needs and then some to spare.  If I needed water - I was given water.  If I needed food - I was given food to sustain me and not once did the food make me sick.  But when I returned and tried to adjust again to the food of "civilization"; I got very sick.

 

One of my interesting experiences when I finely walked out of the desert of southern Utah - I walked to the Saint George temple and in rags that had not been washed or changed for 40 days - I laid on the grass of the temple grounds and was amazed at the sense of smell I had.  I closed my eyes and could smell the different kinds of grass around me as well as the separate trees and flowers.  A temple security person approached me and was one of the first persons I talked to following my 40 days in the wilderness - He smelled like a cow - most likely from the milk he drank and I could still smell his breakfast on his breath. 

 

We do not own houses, cars or even the shirt on our back - These things are all on loan to us while we live our mortal lives.  I honestly believe most live and die never realizing their riches and the great abundances that is ours.  Those 40 days have given me many things - one of the greatest things is in understanding riches are not owned - if we try to own riches they will in slave and own us.  Riches is not in owning but in appreciating and thankfulness.  Like the old song said - "We don't know what we've got til it gone."  My most valued assets that make me rich in every way are not liquid by the world's standards and their value is in keeping and caring - not in trading for money or bartering for things. 

I agree and I will take it even a step further, our body is on loan as well.  The body will turn to dust in the end from where it came. 

So, in that way people can fall in love with worldly things by falling in love with self and carnal traits (traits afforded by the body).  In other words, if someone is born with a genetic affinity towards science (that is the way their brain is wired), that is only on loan, not self.  Or, if they are born with a body that grows to be 7'2'' and becomes a famous and wealthy professional basketball player, that is also on loan and not self but a temporary trait that turns to dust as the body will return to its original state, dust.  Or if a person is vain about their thick curly brown hair, for example, that is falling in love with things of this world that will turn to dust that are just on loan.  This is why humility is so important, to not fall into the trap of thinking these "talents" or traits on loan, that are really just stewardships, are somehow owned.  They are not owned, we are only temporary stewards of these things.

This is why Christ used so many parables about stewards and stewardship and servants, laborers etc, none of whom owned anything they were working with.  In the end we may be given these things, like the parable of the ten talents but for now we have to maintain the attitude that we are simply stewards of everything given.  If these things were owned and we were not stewards then there could not be the statement, where much is given much is required, because those things wouldn't be "given" they would just be self.

[Traveler]

I agree and I will take it even a step further, our body is on loan as well.  The body will turn to dust in the end from where it came. 

So, in that way people can fall in love with worldly things by falling in love with self and carnal traits (traits afforded by the body).  In other words, if someone is born with a genetic affinity towards science (that is the way their brain is wired), that is only on loan, not self.  Or, if they are born with a body that grows to be 7'2'' and becomes a famous and wealthy professional basketball player, that is also on loan and not self but a temporary trait that turns to dust as the body will return to its original state, dust.  Or if a person is vain about their thick curly brown hair, for example, that is falling in love with things of this world that will turn to dust that are just on loan.  This is why humility is so important, to not fall into the trap of thinking these "talents" or traits on loan, that are really just stewardships, are somehow owned.  They are not owned, we are only temporary stewards of these things.

This is why Christ used so many parables about stewards and stewardship and servants, laborers etc, none of whom owned anything they were working with.  In the end we may be given these things, like the parable of the ten talents but for now we have to maintain the attitude that we are simply stewards of everything given.  If these things were owned and we were not stewards then there could not be the statement, where much is given much is required, because those things wouldn't be "given" they would just be self.

 

You are only saying this because your borrowed brain has it all wrong.  :)

[Seminarysnoozer]

You are only saying this because your borrowed brain has it all wrong.  :)

I think you're right.  ... if I was a computer I would be frozen in an endless loop.

[Traveler]

I think you're right.  ... if I was a computer I would be frozen in an endless loop.

 

You took that very well.  :)   Recently I was in a religious debate with an individual that was trying to argue that all religions and philosophies have some truth but no one particular paradigm is the right G-d supported undisputed true religion.    So I asked to be sure - "So you do not believe any particular notion has any advantage over all the others?"  Absolutely they responded. 

 

Then, I said, your particular notion - by its own projection must be wrong.  Because if it is right there is no advantage in believing it or thinking such a thing and if it is wrong then you just wasted your all your effort to discover anything and every conclusion you reach because of such thinking must be wrong or at best misleading.

 

There must be something that can be relied upon.  There must be truth that is correct by which the value of all other things can be measured.   If that truth is not empirical it cannot be used or even considered for use.  We must believe that we can identify truth by some infallible means - otherwise there is no purpose in trying to consider truth.

 

Some try to argue that G-d is the infallible means of knowing truth.  But we are not G-d and thus we are left with trying to discover the infallible means to know G-d and his truth granted to us.  There must be some empirical means.  Jesus taught that if we empirically apply the principles - we will know of such principles if they are granted to us by G-d.  Alma suggested the empirical means of "planting a seed".  Though he uses suggestive symbolism - the method is still empirical. 

 

In essence we must believe there is infallible truth and that we are capable of discovering it and recognizing it.  If we cannot believe that - there is no purpose in seeking truth.  But there is a most interesting caveat - and I think you understand that caveat better than most - that is that the infallible truth is always masked by pride and the refusal to consider that something may be better than what you currently understand.  For that reason alone your are my best and most trusted friend on the forum.  You make me see better things. :)

Edited November 21, 2014 by Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

You took that very well.  :)   Recently I was in a religious debate with an individual that was trying to argue that all religions and philosophies have some truth but no one particular paradigm is the right G-d supported undisputed true religion.    So I asked to be sure - "So you do not believe any particular notion has any advantage over all the others?"  Absolutely they responded. 

 

Then, I said, your particular notion - by its own projection must be wrong.  Because if it is right there is no advantage in believing it or thinking such a thing and if it is wrong then you just wasted your all your effort to discover anything and every conclusion you reach because of such thinking must be wrong or at best misleading.

 

There must be something that can be relied upon.  There must be truth that is correct by which the value of all other things can be measured.   If that truth is not empirical it cannot be used or even considered for use.  We must believe that we can identify truth by some infallible means - otherwise there is no purpose in trying to consider truth.

 

Some try to argue that G-d is the infallible means of knowing truth.  But we are not G-d and thus we are left with trying to discover the infallible means to know G-d and his truth granted to us.  There must be some empirical means.  Jesus taught that if we empirically apply the principles - we will know of such principles if they are granted to us by G-d.  Alma suggested the empirical means of "planting a seed".  Though he uses suggestive symbolism - the method is still empirical. 

 

In essence we must believe there is infallible truth and that we are capable of discovering it and recognizing it.  If we cannot believe that - there is no purpose in seeking truth.  But there is a most interesting caveat - and I think you understand that caveat better than most - that is that the infallible truth is always masked by pride and the refusal to consider that something may be better than what you currently understand.  For that reason alone your are my best and most trusted friend on the forum.  You make me see better things. :)

Thank you for your kind remarks.  I, too, find you to be a great friend on this forum because you are willing to go the rounds with me without it being any kind of personal attack but rather attacking the topic itself.  Thanks.

 

That being said ... I am not so sure that the test we face is to find infallible truth.  How do you couch that with faith?  I think above the test of infallible truth is the test of faith.  Faith is the first test and principle of the gospel.  If all we have is faith and act on it then that is good enough.  We do not have to have more than that, like some empirical means that is reproducable by all because we know that some are simply not capable of understanding these things.  Christ himself said that, and that is the reason He spoke in parables because those that have the ability to understand will gain more but those that don't will be even more confused by it.   If that is the nature of Christ gospel then I don't see how it can also be one that we would say there has to exist empirical evidence, reproducable by all or infallible truth that nobody can argue against while in this life.  At least, I think, that is true for this life.  Of course, when the veil is removed the truth would fall into that category as infallible truth as we know that every knee shall bend, everyone will then have a complete understanding.

 

I think you have to also ask if one believes there is infallible truth then how does that fit with the purpose of the veil.  We know there is a veil and a purpose for the veil.  How important is the purpose of the veil?  Not so important that having infallible truth is more important than that in this life? 

 

Knowing the purpose of this life changes our view on the need to understanding things fully.  We have faith, we have testimonies, we have the spirit, we have the still small voice, we have spiritual discernment, all of which are ways around empirical evidence.  If we had empirical evidence then we wouldnt need those things or at least those things should be sought after in a lesser way if empirical evidence is available.   For me, I will keep spiritual discernment and faith higher on the list of useful tools while in this life.  Empirical evidence and infallible truths were the tools of the first estate test and we all proved to be able to use those tools wisely.  We don't need to be tested with empirical evidence again.

[The Folk Prophet]

If all we have is faith and act on it then that is good enough.  We do not have to have more than that

 

I know it's not entirely what you mean...but this isn't exactly accurate. We do, indeed, need to have more than that. Acting in faith is good enough, but the reason it is good enough is because doing so will bring greater light and knowledge to us. If we are acting in faith we are constantly being given more and more, and this is imperative. If we are not moving forward, we are moving backwards. The acquisition of light and knowledge is key. It is by this means that we know our Heavenly Father, and it is through knowing Him that we become like Him. Stagnant faith will not yield this end. (Though, from a certain point of view, the term stagnant faith is an oxymoron, so....)

[Traveler]

I know it's not entirely what you mean...but this isn't exactly accurate. We do, indeed, need to have more than that. Acting in faith is good enough, but the reason it is good enough is because doing so will bring greater light and knowledge to us. If we are acting in faith we are constantly being given more and more, and this is imperative. If we are not moving forward, we are moving backwards. The acquisition of light and knowledge is key. It is by this means that we know our Heavenly Father, and it is through knowing Him that we become like Him. Stagnant faith will not yield this end. (Though, from a certain point of view, the term stagnant faith is an oxymoron, so....)

 

I agree - it is by faith that we begin a quest for truth - including a G-d of truth.  True faith builds knowledge and understanding - not ignorance and confusion.  It is by faith that knowledge is borne.  It is by false faith that ignorance is given power over mankind.

 

The first principle of the Gospel is not faith but faith in Jesus Christ which also must include the truth he taught and the methods by which he taught and logically (or rhetorically) engaged - all of which are followed by the empirical evidence that Jesus is the Christ and his teachings are the demonstrably infallible truths of G-d (proven empirically to anyone with the faith to live or try them).  It is by faith that we allow empirical evidence to sustain, validate and supports our notions that are true.  It is by false faith that many hold on to incorrect principles and hope despite the empirical evidence that demonstrates otherwise.

[mrmarklin]

An interesting Brigham Young quote for discussion.

 

"If the Latter-day Saints will walk up to their privileges, and exercise faith in the name of Jesus Christ, and live in the enjoyment of the fulness of the Holy Ghost constantly day by day, there is nothing on the face of the earth that they could ask for, that would not be given to them.  The Lord is waiting to be very gracious unto this people, and to pour out upon them riches, honor, glory and power, even that they may possess all things according to the promises he has made through his Apostles and Prophets"

 

Thoughts?

If you have access to a computer and can read/reply to this you ARE rich.

[Silhouette]

If you have access to a computer and can read/reply to this you ARE rich.

I have no computer, so I come in on a cell phone. Maybe I'm middle-class?