Wayward gay Catholic looking for inner solace


HomogenousHomo
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To start off my story, I'd like to give myself a brief introduction of my background. Through birth, baptism, and up until today, I have been a member of the Catholic Church. As I was a baby, I did not get a choice in my baptism, and was forced to attend a Catholic school for 9 years, until I reached a public school.

 

 

At the age of 15, I realized I was a homosexual. Regardless of what you believe is the source of homosexuality, I am not seeking solace in that, but simply my faith.

 

All my life, I grew up in a small Connecticut town where Catholicism reigned, until I moved to the town of Gilbert, Arizona, which has a large LDS population.

 

As I got older, and Pope Benedict's sermons and edicts became more archaic in its messages, my parents and I fell out of place with the church. At 14, all boys and girls are supposed to receive their confirmation into the church, but I did not, and as time went on, my ignoring of that Catholic sacrament meant something deeper. 

 

Our new church in Arizona was very different than the one I had experienced in Connecticut. While my church in my hometown was the center of all our activities, friends, colleagues, and culture, this new church was comprised of "Holiday Catholics," whom I didn't share a bond, and didn't feel I needed to. The congregation did not only seem disinterested, but my own clergy at this new church seemed very out of touch with reality as well.

 

Fast forward to today: I am 19 years old, in college at Arizona State University, and at a dilemma. My parents have left the church, with the breaking point being my grandmother and I hearing a very hateful sermon about homosexuality, attacking the individual, not the sin. This really hurt me, since this was the church (as a whole) I had grown up all my life. My grandma and I, the last of our family hanging on to the church, finally left.

 

As I sit here at my dark computer at 4 AM, one thing is true, I do not question my homosexuality, but I do question my faith. All throughout my life, my passion has been history, and I quickly became a history major when I enrolled at ASU, changing from the sciences. When I first discovered the atrocities of the Catholic Church throughout thousands of years up until today, I was horrified. These weren't just accusations that had no foundation, but written proof and receipts of "indulgences" (upper class people paying priests in the Middle Ages to reach salvation faster), to Popes and Saints having harems of live-in whores. This was my inner breaking point as I realized that the church I thought was infallible indeed was not. When I would question a priest on my findings, they would simply shoo me away, as if I had brought out a skeleton in the closet.

 

With my loss of faith, I almost feel scared in a battle of my own culture, homosexual culture, and popular culture. While I do question many things, and want to see myself as an intellectual someday, there are a few things I believe in my heart that are true:

 

-I believe in the holy trinity of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit

-I recognize the King James Bible, although containing certain historical inconsistencies, as the most factual, relevant, and correct version of the bible

-God is infallible, but man and man's own creations have flaws

-Although I am a firm believer in science, the power of man, and free will, I do know there is someone called God up there.

 

 

I have studied religion, from religion, trying to find my niche, and I feel like I can't find a match for my beliefs. There are so many denominations calling themselves the "true" church, but I just don't buy it, to put it plainly. I want to reach the afterlife someday, but I want to make sure I'm joining the right side. Quite frankly, I do not believe being a Catholic is being on the right side. Looking back, my experience in Catholicism was full of hate, and a lot of brainwashing. You sit in a pew while you recite prayers you learn from birth, over and over again, almost to the point where you feel numb. The Catholic Church is based on the collective, not the individual relationship with God. In my religion, you are encouraged to use the priest as a medium, for you, as an individual, are not strong enough. I do not agree with this.

 

This brings me to the point of how I stumbled into the LDS Church.

 

As a homosexual living in an LDS town, most of my boyfriends have been both inactive and claimed-to-be-active members of your church. When I tell people this, this almost makes them gasp, because many LDS folk I have talked to in my area scratch their head at the fact of a homosexual active member -- but trust me -- they are out there. And to no surprise, with their fine morals and beliefs, happened to be some of the most clean gentlemen I have ever met. I guess I just happened to meet the right guys.

 

One thing that has attracted me to the LDS church is the focus on family. Growing up, my family life slowly unthreaded itself as my mom found new hobbies, my dad, who was never around to begin with, found himself, and my brother and I were left to their own devices. I sometimes looked at my boyfriends' families and wish I had that bond with my own. Although some of their families had different reactions to them having a boyfriend, most of them gladly welcomed me into the fold, and accepted their son regardless of what they thought was his sin. Another attraction I had to the LDS church, was its focus on your personal relationship with God. Growing up, our church always emphasized how you must go through someone else to get to God. I always thought it was silly how God and Jesus needed their own earthly secretaries,and we couldn't properly be forgiven of our sins or have proper prayer without a priest. The LDS church has welcoming qualities and good morals that make me want to teach my child these lessons when I decide I want to settle down with a partner someday.  

 

I think what really made me start thinking about my "lost" feeling, is working at Iceberg Drive Inn. I work at the only out of state Iceberg Drive Inn, which is frequented by Utah transplants, and various LDS families. One thing that deterred me from the church, was the feeling that I wasn't right for them.

 

To give you a few reasons:

 

--I am a homosexual. Although I do not brag about it like many do, this sheer fact can scare people away.

--If I was to join a church, I would not be closeted. If I had found a longterm partner, I would encourage him to come to services.

--I am surrounded by friends and family that are very judgmental of the stereotypical LDS culture of what pop culture has formed its thoughts on

--I swear like a sailor, and my dry humor is unparalled. 

 

All these reasons alone make me feel like I would not be welcome. 

 

I almost used to loathe the clean-cut, cookie-cutter families I would see at my work. Although I admired the foundations of the LDS culture, I loathed seeing how "perfect" my mind made them seem, and how I felt like it was all baloney. The entitlement as they would come into my store and treat fast food workers like dirt with impatience would make me so angry, since I was trying to give them the best product I possibly could. 

 

That's when I realized I was looking at it from the wrong perspective. These "perfect" families I was seeing were not just mormon families. These families built on a hill of suburban upper-class entitlement were not white, black, Catholic, Jewish, or anyone specific. Although Iceberg Drive Inn does have a large draw of LDS customers, I was wrong to single these people out as mormons, because not all of them are. I realized that undesirable people exist everywhere, and to judge a collective of people based on a regional community I had come to know and label, isn't fair to anyone of the LDS faith. That goes for my analyzation of the Catholic faith as well. Although I did not find comfort in my original faith, there are many people who have, and I am okay with that.

 

That is when I met one of my co-workers. He was everything the mainstream hated; he had tattoos, he swore like a sailor, drank, and he dressed like a rock star. But, although he was not the poster-child of his LDS faith, he had one of the cleanest hearts I had ever met, and did not have a bad bone in his body. Like everyone else, he sinned, but in different ways. That made me realize that being mormon isn't just being a singular image. Being mormon is like that advertisement campaign of millions of different types of people, coming together in a similar belief. Yes, there are distinguishing differences from an Arizona LDS member, compared to a Utah one, or Northern California member, based on dress, lingo, and standards, but I believe that those differences are based on regions, social class, and upbringing, not just being "mormon." Although there are qualities that do attribute to someone "being mormon," I have come to realize that those are issues of faith, and heart. 

 

As I have stated above, I think what scares me the most about seeing if my heart fits with the LDS faith, is my flaws. 

 

--I love drinking coffee. 

--I want to get tattoos

--I want to have a loving relationship with a partner and have a big family

--I swear like a sailor

 

I feel that these things will possibly intimidate other members, simply because my sins are different from theirs. I think what attracted me the most was also the church stance on homosexuality. I found a lot of repression within my Catholic community, but your message gives me hope. Even if you think homosexuality is a sin, it is okay. I loathe the gays that seem to bash on religious people because of their beliefs. I think it is wrong, because everyone has the right to free speech, and also free belief to not support gay marriage. When someone tells me they do not support gay marriage, or homosexuality, I am okay with that. I know in my heart that their beliefs do not believe they hate or fear me. They may not like the acts, but they do not hate me in the slightest on terms of personality, or me as a human being. Everyone is entitled to their own belief system, be it political, religious, or personal. 

 

Although that every member comes from a different background, I hope that as all these things about myself don't deter people in seeing that I want to be a good person, to have a good heart, and make good decisions. I want to go to a church someday with my partner, and be able to stand in there without people casting judgement on our persons -- not on our decisions. I want to go to a church where I can make lasting friends, bonds, and connections both spiritual, and personal.

 

I think what i am truly afraid of, and this is not just singular to me being weary of going to an LDS service at a local ward, is losing who I am. I am afraid of losing what I know as the Irish, sarcastic, quick-witted, fast talking History major who questions everything and only accepts what he truly believes. I'm afraid of becoming like the "sheeple" in some sense, and I still want to be unique. I also want to be unique, but still have a shot of being included in some semblance of a community. If I converted to Mormonism, I wouldn't want to just be another convert, but the exact same person who I am, but with a better heart, better mind, and closer to God.

 

 

A little help? I really can't pinpoint what I'm asking. I guess I'm just a little lost, and looking for answers and advice from you lovely folks of the internet. 

 

 

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A little help? I really can't pinpoint what I'm asking. I guess I'm just a little lost, and looking for answers and advice from you lovely folks of the internet. 

 

 

 

​Fundamentally it comes down to how you identify yourself, if you define yourself by the things conversion requires and counsels of you to discontinue then I can see how one could feel, "I'd lose myself." If one identifies oneself by other qualities it's less of an issue. Mormonism would ask you to discontinue some things, but it also asks you to identify yourself not by your sins (within a Mormon context) but by your virtues and potential. If Mormonism, and Christianity in general, are what they claim to be then one should in a sense lose themselves and find a better self (Matthew 16:24-26 and all that). Indeed, one can make the argument that such is the sole goal.

Edited by Dravin
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A little help? I really can't pinpoint what I'm asking. I guess I'm just a little lost, and looking for answers and advice from you lovely folks of the internet. 

 

I have about the same background as you.  I was born Catholic complete with Catholic Schooling from Kindergarten through a Bachelor's Degree (it's very telling when you say you were "forced" to go to Catholic School) and remained with my close-knit family as a devout Catholic all the way to the day I got baptized into the LDS Church.  I love the Catholic Church and people on LDS.net knows I will defend that Church from any who mis-characterized it.

 

And I can tell you, with conviction, that the reasons you left the Catholic Church will be the same reasons you will not join the LDS Church unless you change your mind about some things.

 

But, let me just put some detail into it a bit -

 

- I believe in the holy trinity of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit

 

The LDS do not.  They believe that the person of God - The Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the same substance as Man.  They are united into one God, not through their physical substance, but through the perfect unity of their Will.  (You will notice that LDS is very particular about free Will that is necessary as a vehicle to become God).

 

-I recognize the King James Bible, although containing certain historical inconsistencies, as the most factual, relevant, and correct version of the bible

 

The LDS believe this only so far as it is translated/interpreted correctly.  The Book of Mormon is the "other stick" that clarifies the things of the Bible.  You can run a line through a point in many directions.  But when you have 2 points, you can only draw one line through both.

 

-God is infallible, but man and man's own creations have flaws

 

I'm not so sure you really believe this from your reasoning that the history of the Catholic Church is part of your reason to leave it.  The LDS Church is a lot younger and more modern than the Catholic Church.  But, in its 200+ years of history, you can dig historical dirt from it as well.

 

-Although I am a firm believer in science, the power of man, and free will, I do know there is someone called God up there.

 

That's a good start.

 

 

--I love drinking coffee. 

You can't get baptized into the LDS Church unless you make a covenant to not drink coffee.  If you can't even sacrifice that one thing, it will be very difficult to follow through with the entire baptismal covenant.  It's like telling the Jaguars you want to become a Jaguars quarterback but you want to wear your beloved Dolphins uniform to every game.

 

--I want to get tattoos

This is not a covenant.  That is, the bishop will not ask you to get rid of your tattoos to be baptized.  But, the LDS teach that your body is your temple.  And your baptismal covenant includes taking on the name of Christ (like taking on the Jaguars name when you become their quarterback).  So the Church advices against getting one because a tattoo, in American culture, comes with its own image.  By the way, it's not just the Church that says this... a lot of jobs requires that you cover your tattoos and remove your piercings due to the image that it portrays.

 

--I want to have a loving relationship with a partner and have a big family

The LDS do not believe that homosexuality is a sin.  The LDS believe that having sex outside of marriage is a sin.  The LDS believe that marriage is ordained of God between a Man and a Woman with the natural qualities of both genders contributing to the foundation of children.  And the Love that binds one Man to one Woman under the covenant of marriage can be expressed through sexual intimacy.

 

Unlike the Catholic Church, the LDS Church believes that gender is an eternal trait and marriage is an eternal union.  It does not start at birth and end in death.  The LDS believe in a pre-mortal existence as well as a post-mortal one.  Therefore, gender plays an important role in the entirety of existence in Priesthood Power - with Woman set apart for the work of bringing the human spirit from pre-mortality to mortality  and man set apart for the work of bringing the human spirit from mortality to post-mortality... with both of them working together as complements in mortality.

 

So, yes, you can have a loving relationship with a partner as long as that expression of love does not involve sexual intimacy (as it will be sex outside of marriage).  After all, the 2nd great commandment is to Love others like yourself.

 

--I swear like a sailor

Jaguars quarterback wanting to wear a Dolphins uniform...

 

Hope this helps.

Edited by anatess
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Guest MormonGator

I'm a former Catholic. While I'm not homosexual, I totally understand how you would feel about "losing yourself" to join the church. I'm a guy who likes things that a church lady would be aghast at. I'm also quite libertarian in my politics and thinking. I have long hair, many tattoos and would prefer to be at a Megadeth concert than a church. 

 

For me, it was all about the Book of Mormon/KJV bible. I became LDS a year ago and it's the greatest thing that even happened to me. I've experienced nothing but love and acceptance in my church. They know I come to church with odd bumper stickers on my car, music blasting, and sometimes I bring my pit bull to church activities. Are there some weird stares? Of course. They get over it quickly when they realize my testimony is just as strong as theirs. 

 

All my friends were shocked when I joined the church. They said, "Dude, you are going to have to stop being yourself. No drinking? No smoking? No coffee? No girls? " (Seriously, Dunkin Donuts, Budweiser and Camel lights were my food group for a long time). it's been HARD. I'm not going to lie-sometimes I'm not a very good Mormon in practice. (In thought/theology I'm fairly orthodox)  But I keep trying. 

When you join the church a lot of stuff falls into place. 

 

In many ways Homosexuals and LDS have more in common then they think. It's hard to be both in this world because we are viewed as outcasts. Also, being open with both homosexuality and being an open LDS can lead to family strife.  While the church doesn't support gay marriage, it strongly and vehemently opposes homosexual discrimination.  We have more in common than you think. 

No matter what you find in your journey in faith-you are a brother to us in the LDS church. God bless you. 

Edited by MormonGator
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I read your long post quite carefully because it was so interesting.  I seemed to detect an air of urgency in your comments, as if you need to decide something soon or else horrible things will happen.  They won't.

 

Humans often fall into the trap of thinking that a decision must be made immediately, that it's a black-and-white decision, that it's a dilemma, and that if they choose the wrong path then there's no going back.  Maybe some decisions are like that, such a decision to donate a kidney to a relative, but they are few and far between.  Slow down.  I have found that many decisions sort of decide themselves if I just keep learning and gathering data.

 

If you feel drawn to the LDS Church, by all means investigate further.  Just go to church and listen and observe and learn.  Nobody will put a gun to your head and demand that you either get baptized or get lost.  I think the decision before you now is, "Should I learn more?" and not "Is the LDS Church the true path to inner solace?"  Some part of you may be uncomfortable with how tentative this makes your life for the coming months or years, but learning to find peace in uncertainty and tentativeness is a good skill to learn and will serve you well.  Good grief, I was an investigator off and on over a 10-year period before I finally got baptized.

 

And don't misinterpret my next comment, but I think it's a mistake to compartmentalize yourself permanently as gay.  You may feel that way now, but your whole life is ahead of you.  I'm not suggesting that you try to alter your orientation.  Statistically speaking, people who self-identify as homosexual in their youth continue to self-identify as homosexual for the rest of their lives, and that's okay if you do, too.  However, I have hundreds of business contacts along the California coast, and I've noticed a change over the last decade where a few older gays release themselves from strict categorization as gay and allow themselves to feel sexual attraction wherever it occurs.  Most remain predominantly gay, but I know several people who started self-identifying as bisexual after decades of being totally gay.  One friend left his same-sex partner and married a woman.  He is a rare exception, and I am not in any way telling you that you need to change.  I'm just advising you to be open to change in every aspect of your life, and to follow the changes that benefit you.

 

Be happy.  Better to have a long unexplored journey before you than to be chained by the side of the road.

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You seem like a very bright guy.  I was reading your story, and I thought "He could really use this insight", and in the very next paragraph was that exact insight.  This happened not once, but many times.  You've obviously put a lot of high quality thought into this.  Hopefully we can add some more fuel to the fire.

 

As you touched on, people are very fallible.  Those snobby families at the drive through can be Catholic, Mormon, atheist, or many other things.  We all suffer from weakness and have a long history of screw-ups.  One of the things *everyone* needs to work on is not judging others in their imperfect actions.  You seem to have reflected on this quite a bit already.  If you do go to a Mormon church (or anywhere else), I can guarantee you that at least 1 person of the 300 there will be struggling with judging others and will sin by judging you as a person because you're gay.  I would ask you to forgive said person for his sin against you, and not let the weakness of that man to keep you from God.

 

Mormonism is founded on the principle of each individual talking to God directly, to get to know Him that way.  Bow you heart down, invite Christ into your life, read His words, and listen to what He answers to your prayers.  Your relationship with God involves exactly two people: you and God.  

 

You're worried about using yourself.  I understand that 300% (I've felt the same way).  Now, let's take a moment to step back and ask: who are you?  Are you defined by by your love of coffee?  Of course not!  If all the world's coffee were to vanish, you would continue to be the exact same person you've always been.  No, you are you!  An intrinsically valuable human being, not defined by any actions-- in fact you would be just as valuable if you suddenly went into a coma and could do nothing the rest of your life.  So, if your worth doesn't come from your deeds, where does it come from?

 

You are a child of God!!  That's where your value comes from!!!  The Master of the Universe, the Creator of all: you're His SON!!!  I'm not talking about being "adopted" by God because you've been a good boy, no-- you are His SON because you are of His spiritual flesh and blood-- an offspring of His own nature!!   The heart that beats, the mind that thinks, the will to choose, the soul that loves: you are HIS SON!!  The Father has loved your for eons before you ever came to this world, a love deeper than you could ever comprehend.  His love, your value, goes far beyond mortal understanding.  

 

Please, come to the Father, and let Him tell you how much He loves you.  It's not because of any actions He loves you.  Now, that being said He does want you to do good things: just like any earthly father would want you to do good things ;) .  He wants you to be safe, to be close to him, to love those around you, and to grow into the best person you can be.  Because of that yes, He does ask us some things: like don't kill anyone :P.  Somethings just make a better world for all of God's children.  

 

And yes, Mormons will put "don't drink coffee" on the list of things you shouldn't do cause they're bad for you. But remember, God doesn't define your worth on coffee consumption, instead it's a recommendation to help you grow to be a better person.  It's just like my friend who's working on anger-management: her temper doesn't define her worth, but mastering it will enable her to be a much better person, and more like the God she's loves so much.  She's learning to define herself not by her actions (i.e. yelling), but to define herself a beautiful beloved daughter of God.  

 

On a side note: if you haven't already, I'd recommend checking out the official stance of the Mormon church on gays at http://mormonsandgays.org.  

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I commented on your Welcome post and won't try and digest the long post here.  I love Anatess. She is always on the mark as far as I am concerned.  Ditto her. 

 

I do think it interesting you recognize the failability of man but don't forgive the priest who offended your grandmother (you). The Catholic church is huge and has issues with leaders trying to envoke their own belief - hence a cardinal was just demoted by the Pope. Spend ten minutes searching out the "bad" of the LDS faith and you may never look back.

 

Yet I am a 30 year convert member, happy as can be in my faith.

 

Last comment, Arizona and Utah Mormons (some Californian) have a unique culture. You'll find a different level of acceptance out in the "mission field", where many more Mormons live.

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Thank you everyone for the post. I do plan on staying on this forum longer than my two current posts, and hope to learn a lot. If I am inclined to eventually convert after soul searching, I understand some of my views are contradictory to the doctrine. That does not mean my views can change. Although I like to think of myself as someone who not only questions certain things, but everything, that does not mean my view cannot change. I am dedicated to my points of view, but I am always open to new ones, which is why I have been doing some soul searching. As mentioned above, there was a sense of urgency. Two reasons for that include that it was 4 AM, and, I do not know why I was up, but I was :P the other reason is that I am naturally impatient when it comes to improving myself, but I also understand that becoming a good person, or working on anything in general, takes time, and patience is something I am constantly working on. I am searching out the LDS faith simply because I am open to change my ideals, or discover new ones that go hand in hand. 

 

One clarification that I'd like to make, is that I do not plan on making my homosexuality a focal point in my search. Although I have mentioned it various times, and included it in my username, I mainly include it to expand your range of advice you folks have to give me, since sometimes being a homosexual in both popular culture, different religious culture, and otherwise are sometimes a contradictory. Whether you believe it is inherited or not, I believe my homosexuality is a part of me, and something I cannot change. Therefore, I want to work on my inner person, behind that label. 

 

You are correct, Paul, I did oversee that fact. I could have forgiven that priest, and I have. He is a human being such as I. As I stated, I wrote this post in the very early hours, and my grammar and consistency might have been a little off. My experience in the Catholic church is simply mine, and there are many who have found happiness within it, but the churches, schools, and things I have experienced are unique to my story, in certain ways of course. 

 

I think the fear that comes from losing myself isn't so much in the things like drinking coffee; I'd like to say that I can very easily quit coffee. I have done it before, and as my schedule gets busier, and though it is addicting, I go weeks without it, until I decide to treat myself. My fear of losing myself stems from what I saw the LDS culture, and other religions, as producing one singular type of person that differs from no other. This fear changed, as I realized that being a certain doctrine won't change your personality. Of course you will have to change your actions, which might be harder or easier depending on your personality, but many of your responses comfort me in knowing that I will still be the same human being. Albeit a better one, who makes better decisions, but I am who I am, and have the personality I was born with. 

 

Thank you everyone for your carefully crafted responses, I really enjoy reading them!

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I don't know if this will be helpful to you or not, but i thought it was a unique perspective (and the woman is Catholic):  https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/former-lesbian-on-why-its-cruel-for-church-leaders-to-go-soft-on-same-sex-r  (there is a link on there to the full interview)

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I don't know if this will be helpful to you or not, but i thought it was a unique perspective (and the woman is Catholic):  https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/former-lesbian-on-why-its-cruel-for-church-leaders-to-go-soft-on-same-sex-r  (there is a link on there to the full interview)

 

With full respect to the woman on the article... I just don't think addressing homosexuality as something to be "healed from" is productive.  It's like Autism - you don't get "healed from" Autism.  Instead, you learn to maneuver through life with this reality.  But yes, it is possible to change one's orientation... but it's not always probable for some, if not most.  Which is just fine because Man is a lot more than his sexual orientation - so it is a less daunting task to learn to maneuver through life with that reality than Autism, because Autism affects every facet of life.

 

It's a little bit different between Catholics and Mormons.  Catholics consider the vow of celibacy as desirous - even heroic - and is a truly righteous goal in itself.  In LDS, though, Eternal Marriage is the righteous goal, and celibacy is hoped for as temporary.

 

So there's that.

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There is undeniably a Mormon sub-culture in parts of Arizona, Utah, and Idaho that does subconsciously push this homogenous was of acting.  When I lived in Idaho for my undergrad, that culture made me downright livid.  I remember standing in my apartment parking lot, looking up, and the SAME movie playing on TEN different televisions.  Argh!!!  "Mr. Darcey, Mr. Darcey"-- if I never hear one more word of Jane Austin in my life, then I shall die happy.  In many ways I become a social pariah because of things as silly as not liking Jane Austin, dating, or wearing high-heals.  And yeah that kind of sucked (a lot actually).  

 

And then the solution hit me like a bag of bricks: those Jane Austin lovers-- forget them!!  Just forget them.  If a person is going to be so silly as to ignore me because I like different movies, then why should I care?  I can get my education, worship the Lord, and do everything else without worrying about other people sinning by judging me for it.  My relationship with the Lord is individual.  And there is far more than one way to be a Mormon.  And totally forget about those high heels in Rexburg winter!!!

 

There IS diversity in Mormon people!  That homogenous attitude Mormonville culture wears- it's nothing more than a mask.  And I feel that Mormon leaders and people are coming to ditch the mask and embrace their diversity.  Just in the last 3 months speakers at General Conference are talking in many languages, and the "Meet the Mormons" movie downright celebrates diversity.

 

* Disclaimer: I mean no offense to anyone in Arizona, Utah, or Idaho.  And there are many exceptions to the general-culture rule.  

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Isn't that exactly the point of the Savior's Atonement?

 

I think it is, in a sense. But there is another side to it. I have a close and beloved relative who was recently paralyzed and is now learning to live as a quadriplegic. I have prayed daily for his complete recovery, and will continue to do so, with hope for the realization of my prayers and faith that it will happen in God's time. But I also must acknowledge that my relative may well be paralyzed for the rest of his life. I don't want that, and I sometimes feel that if I had developed sufficient faith, I could somehow heal him with that faith. But whether that's true or false, the possibility (even probability) of a lifetime of severe paralysis is front and center.

 

Some life trials can be healed. Others we are expected to endure for a time, even for the rest of our lives, if necessary. I believe that anatess is suggesting that, in many cases, homosexual inclinations are the latter type of trial. From what I have seen, I tend to agree.

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--I want to have a loving relationship with a partner and have a big family

The LDS do not believe that homosexuality is a sin.  The LDS believe that having sex outside of marriage is a sin.  The LDS believe that marriage is ordained of God between a Man and a Woman with the natural qualities of both genders contributing to the foundation of children.  And the Love that binds one Man to one Woman under the covenant of marriage can be expressed through sexual intimacy.

 

Unlike the Catholic Church, the LDS Church believes that gender is an eternal trait and marriage is an eternal union.  It does not start at birth and end in death.  The LDS believe in a pre-mortal existence as well as a post-mortal one.  Therefore, gender plays an important role in the entirety of existence in Priesthood Power - with Woman set apart for the work of bringing the human spirit from pre-mortality to mortality  and man set apart for the work of bringing the human spirit from mortality to post-mortality... with both of them working together as complements in mortality.

 

So, yes, you can have a loving relationship with a partner as long as that expression of love does not involve sexual intimacy (as it will be sex outside of marriage).  After all, the 2nd great commandment is to Love others like yourself.

 

A few parts I really disagree with.  1st off, God loves all His children regardless of their station in life and the things they do.  However, just because He loves us all equally does not mean that there are not things He approves of or disapproves of.

 

I personally think the idea that one can be homosexual and as long as there is not sex involved it is okay is extremely destructive.  Homosexual actions are sin.  I personally do not believe that one can be involved in a homosexual relationship and as long as it doesn't involve sex there is no need for repentance.  Claiming that homosexual sex outside of marriage is immoral is not accurate.  Homosexual actions are sin, regardless of whether it is in "marriage" or outside of "marriage.

 

Right from the mormonandgays website:

"Members of the Church who have same-sex attractions, but don’t act on them, can continue to enjoy full fellowship in the church, which includes holding the priesthood, carrying out callings, and attending the temple. Unlike in times past, the Church does not necessarily advise those with same-sex attraction to marry those of the opposite sex. Same-sex attraction itself is not a sin, but yielding to it is. However, through repentance Jesus Christ will offer forgiveness."

 

Saying that a righteous homosexual member of the church can have a loving relationship with the same sex as long as it doesn't include sex is flat out 100% wrong. And no a righteous homosexual member of the church cannot have a big loving homosexual family.  So if a homosexual member came to church with their partner holding hands that would be sin because they are yielding to homosexual attraction.  

 

The life of a homosexual individual to live the gospel and be worthy of the full benefits of church membership is an extremely difficult road; one that I am very glad that I do not have to travel.  I firmly believe they can do it, and I believe that if they choose to travel down that path they will gain a greater understanding of the Atonement and will in many ways will be able to comprehend it better than others.  It is as the rich man and Christ, who Christ asked to sell all that he had to follow him and the rich man could not do it.  Christ asks homosexuals to give up all behaviors that yield to same-sex attraction.  That is very, very difficult.  

 

And HH, I'm probably the most libertarian on the board.  I believe the government should stay out of marriage and if 2 homosexuals had a church that let them get married I see no reason why the government should prevent it.

Edited by yjacket
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I think it is, in a sense. But there is another side to it. I have a close and beloved relative who was recently paralyzed and is now learning to live as a quadriplegic. I have prayed daily for his complete recovery, and will continue to do so, with hope for the realization of my prayers and faith that it will happen in God's time. But I also must acknowledge that my relative may well be paralyzed for the rest of his life. I don't want that, and I sometimes feel that if I had developed sufficient faith, I could somehow heal him with that faith. But whether that's true or false, the possibility (even probability) of a lifetime of severe paralysis is front and center.

 

Some life trials can be healed. Others we are expected to endure for a time, even for the rest of our lives, if necessary. I believe that anatess is suggesting that, in many cases, homosexual inclinations are the latter type of trial. From what I have seen, I tend to agree.

 

My point was not, necessarily, that someone can overcome homosexuality in this life. But, rather, that someone can, by turning to the Atonement through repentance and obedience, be healed from the hurt of it -- just as someone who is a quadriplegic may also be healed in their hearts and souls despite perhaps never actually gaining usage of their full bodies again in this life.

 

As to the overcoming of homosexual or not...claiming that one cannot is every bit as invalid as claiming one can. All evidence one way or the other is entirely anecdotal and therefore invalid. If I'm not allowed to use anecdotal evidence based on people I've known to support my ideas in this regard then neither is anatess.

 

In short, comparing homosexuality to something like Autism (or permanent paralization of some sort) may be valid in some cases, but it just as well may not be, and putting it into those terms in such an adamant way is therefore potentially harmful.  In other words, stating that it isn't productive to claim we can be healed from such things is assuming a black-and-white reality that remains to be proven, and will likely never be proven. And if such thinking is universally adopted, and if homosexuality, in reality, is entirely alterable, then we put ourselves into a state of blindness and lies based on political sensitivity. Dangerous.

 

There's way too much "from what I've seen" behind this issue going around. What we've seen is what people say and do. And what people say and do proves nothing. People, as we well know, are quite capable of corruption, sin, naivety, mental disorders, and a host of other weaknesses that keep them from being, as a whole, very good witnesses of much. And they are all generally blind to reality until they put off the natural man and come to Christ and gain truth by the only sure means of gaining pure truth and light, which means is through the Holy Spirit. So even if everyone living on the earth adamantly claimed that they knew they could not change something that ultimately accounts to nothing more than taste, is not particularly swaying as an argument.

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A few parts I really disagree with.  1st off, God loves all His children regardless of their station in life and the things they do.  However, just because He loves us all equally does not mean that there are not things He approves of or disapproves of.

 

I personally think the idea that one can be homosexual and as long as there is not sex involved it is okay is extremely destructive.  Homosexual actions are sin.  I personally do not believe that one can be involved in a homosexual relationship and as long as it doesn't involve sex there is no need for repentance.  Claiming that homosexual sex outside of marriage is immoral is not accurate.  Homosexual actions are sin, regardless of whether it is in "marriage" or outside of "marriage.

 

Right from the mormonandgays website:

"Members of the Church who have same-sex attractions, but don’t act on them, can continue to enjoy full fellowship in the church, which includes holding the priesthood, carrying out callings, and attending the temple. Unlike in times past, the Church does not necessarily advise those with same-sex attraction to marry those of the opposite sex. Same-sex attraction itself is not a sin, but yielding to it is. However, through repentance Jesus Christ will offer forgiveness."

 

Saying that a righteous homosexual member of the church can have a loving relationship with the same sex as long as it doesn't include sex is flat out 100% wrong. And no a righteous homosexual member of the church cannot have a big loving homosexual family.  So if a homosexual member came to church with their partner holding hands that would be sin because they are yielding to homosexual attraction.  

 

The life of a homosexual individual to live the gospel and be worthy of the full benefits of church membership is an extremely difficult road; one that I am very glad that I do not have to travel.  I firmly believe they can do it, and I believe that if they choose to travel down that path they will gain a greater understanding of the Atonement and will in many ways will be able to comprehend it better than others.  It is as the rich man and Christ, who Christ asked to sell all that he had to follow him and the rich man could not do it.  Christ asks homosexuals to give up all behaviors that yield to same-sex attraction.  That is very, very difficult.  

 

And HH, I'm probably the most libertarian on the board.  I believe the government should stay out of marriage and if 2 homosexuals had a church that let them get married I see no reason why the government should prevent it.

 

I guess you can say this is my dilemma in searching for my true faith. There are so many churches out there that want to "heal" me, to become better. Although there are many of my homosexual brothers and sisters that believe you are stuck the way you are stuck the way you are stuck, I believe in fluidity. Who knows, maybe I will fancy a woman someday, but at the moment, I can't see it happening. I try to keep my mind open to all theories. 

 

The point is, I want to feel comfortable in a faith where my homosexuality is not an issue. Whether it is a church that recognizes same-sex attraction and the action a sin, or just the acting upon a sin, I don't want a church where my partner and I will be judged. I can live going to church and not holding hands or acting upon it in public. I see that goes both ways for hetero and homosexual couples. You don't want to be immodest and just plain gross in public with others around. Even if I am comfortable with a church that deems the acts as a sin, I want to find a faith where my homosexuality will not be a constant touching-point. I am aware I am a sinner, for we are all sinners. Although homosexual acts are a sin, can I still be happy in a faith where I want to improve myself, without living a life of celibacy? Celibacy for me is not just restraining from sexual acts, but being happy with someone else. I want to know what lifelong love and family feels like. I want to raise children and send them off with everything I learned. These wants transcend perceived sexuality, for we all wish to be loved by another human being. I just wish I could include my want to love and be loved by another man, improve myself in faith and body, yet also not be looked on for what others see as that sin in their faith. 

 

Also on the topic of my username, that is pretty clever. Although I am a homosexual, I dress like any other guy, listen to some good old rock and roll, and don't exhibit perceived feminine traits (aside from looking up to strong female "divas" like Tina Turner, Kate Bush, and Madonna when I was younger, of course, but that was a while ago). 

Edited by HomogenousHomo
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I guess you can say this is my dilemma in searching for my true faith. There are so many churches out there that want to "heal" me, to become better. Although there are many of my homosexual brothers and sisters that believe you are stuck the way you are stuck the way you are stuck, I believe in fluidity. Who knows, maybe I will fancy a woman someday, but at the moment, I can't see it happening. I try to keep my mind open to all theories.

 

I'm glad that you are keeping your mind open; you are young and there are many things that have occurred in your life that have imprinted themselves on you to the point that you have no idea as to why you do the things you do.  It took me many, many years into adulthood to understand many of my basic characteristics and why I act the way I act.  It took self-reflection, understanding, being able to look in the mirror and really strip down all the barriers and lies that I told about myself and it took a lot of reading.

 

The whole nurture vs. nature debate; I think it is a combination.  Personally, I'm not so sure that individuals are born homosexual (maybe they are, but I think many times it is used as an excuse for acceptability of actions, i.e. if I'm born that way how can someone say it is wrong).  Children when they are born do not have sexuality; they have sexual characteristics, but not sexuality. Explaining sex to a child would be pretty pointless as they couldn't grasp the deeper meaning of things; there is a long period of time (about 14-15 years) between birth to sexuality that has the potential for lots of bad things to happen to screw up a person's sexuality. But there is a lot that we don't know and it is entirely possible that it could be 100% nature.

 

Churches are specifically for the sick; that is the purpose of church to help us find our way to Christ so that He can "heal" us. If you are looking for a church that doesn't look to help individuals improve or heal, you aren't looking for a church but a support group.

"I don't want a church where my partner and I will be judged"

 

To be honest, who cares about what other people think; we are taught not to judge unrighteously, but the ultimate judge is God.  At the end of the day, what I think of you or what any other member of the church thinks of you means absolutely nothing.  What matters is what God thinks of you. 

 

" Although homosexual acts are a sin, can I still be happy in a faith where I want to improve myself, without living a life of celibacy? Celibacy for me is not just restraining from sexual acts, but being happy with someone else. I want to know what lifelong love and family feels like. I want to raise children and send them off with everything I learned. These wants transcend perceived sexuality, for we all wish to be loved by another human being."

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/41

 

It seems as if you want to be happy in sin, which is completely against what God, His prophets and the scriptures teach.  We can never be happy in sin.  We are saved from sin.  Repentance isn't about just saying "oops, my bad"; it is about change, turning away from sin to where the act of the causes us to sin is repulsive to us.

 

You want to raise a family and that is a good desire; however having children and raising them is a tremendous responsibility.  Those children, who are innocent before God, deserve to be raised in a home where a father and a mother can provide for them and teach them.  There are qualities that only a mother can provide to their children and there are things that only a father can provide; anything else is just a poor substitute.  Sometimes through divorce or death families have one-parent and they do the best they can, but it is no replacement for a mother & father raising their children together.  God instituted the family the way it is structured with male and female because it is the best way to raise the next generation.  Nothing else can compare or come close to replicating it's structure.  One is doing the child a major disservice by denying them that opportunity.

  

" I want to find a faith where my homosexuality will not be a constant touching-point."

 

It is only as much of a touching-point as you make it.  I sense through all of this that you want to find a religion that "fits you" and if that is what you desire, you will find it.  However, I would recommend rather than trying to find something that fits you, worry about what God wants you to do.  Don't search based upon the faith's response to homosexuals, but search based upon what God, who is your Father and loves you would have you do.  If you do that; you will find what you are looking for.

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Isn't that exactly the point of the Savior's Atonement?

 

Of course.  But that's preceded by faith.  So that's not how it comes across to the homosexuals that has not developed that faith.  And those that have developed that faith are not who that article addresses.  For those who don't have faith yet, it does not give the connotation of spiritual healing.  It gives the connotation of medical healing.  And that isn't productive.

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My husband's best friend is gay. Soulsearcher here has been saying the same thing. But, hey, you can believe what you want.

 

So what? Gay people are hardly valid witnesses as to the potential biases of gay people.

 

Give me something concrete or your point of view on discussions of healing being unproductive is mere opinion. Back it up with something other than a gay person or two said so. You can't act like the debate's settled. It is not, and will not be -- cannot be. Opinions don't prove anything.

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I think that acting on homosexual feelings is not of God, and I do not support same-sex marriage.

That being said, looking back on my childhood and the way I was abused both physically and emotionally, I would have much rather been raised by a loving set of same-sex parents than the horrible heterosexual couple that I was born to.

I have no idea how to reconcile the above two paragraphs. I do know this much though: If I were a parent giving a child up, and I had a choice of whether or not my child was put in foster care or adopted by a loving same-sex couple, I'd go with the same-sex couple.

I guess I really am of two minds about this issue. No idea how to get the two ideas together though.

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I think that acting on homosexual feelings is not of God, and I do not support same-sex marriage.

That being said, looking back on my childhood and the way I was abused both physically and emotionally, I would have much rather been raised by a loving set of same-sex parents than the horrible heterosexual couple that I was born to.

I have no idea how to reconcile the above two paragraphs. I do know this much though: If I were a parent giving a child up, and I had a choice of whether or not my child was put in foster care or adopted by a loving same-sex couple, I'd go with the same-sex couple.

I guess I really am of two minds about this issue. No idea how to get the two ideas together though.

 

Why is there always this comparison between the "loving same-sex couple" vs. the horrible heterosexual couple.  All the arguments I see in favor of homo adoptions are that the child will be raised by two people who "love each other".  Why the portrayal of the loving homo relationship vs. the horrible heter. relationship.

 

Here's a hint, every single couple in the world has issues and problems, some issues are bigger than others, but they are there. And here is another hint, statistically speaking homo. relationships end up breaking up more than heter. relationship.  The relationship that statistically breaks up the most is female & female.

 

This flawed idea is promoted in the movies people watch and the shows people watch.  Most heter. relationships are portrayed as deeply flawed while most homo. relationships are portrayed as blissful.

 

So the very premise of your argument is flawed, statistically speaking you will have a better chance of being raised in a loving environment with heterosexual parents vs. homosexuals guardians.

Edited by yjacket
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Says you.

Anatess is saying it isn't productive to insinuate someone be healed physically, as if homosexuality is medical condition. She is right to say it requires a spriritual change to take advantange of the Saviour's atonement.  How the heck do you disagree with that?!?

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