Belief and the Will

[2ndRateMind]

I have long thought that some people are not Christians because they simply do not want to be Christians. I was one of them. For such as these, any objection to the Christian world-view is sufficient to throw the whole edifice of faith away. A virgin birth? A speaking serpent? A global flood? Don't make me laugh. And those dinosaur thingies - on which day did God create them, only to destroy them all, later?

 

On the other hand, we cannot simply change our beliefs - interwoven as they are with our whole world view - just because we want to. If we think a thing to be false, we cannot, however much we might want to, believe it. Conversely, if we think a thing to be true, we cannot, however much we might want to, disbelieve it. Our beliefs, and our volition, seem at least to this extent to be independent. If you doubt this, try this experiment. Become a Muslim for the next five minutes, and then revert back to your Christian beliefs. If you succeed, I stand refuted.

 

Yet, most Christian denominations that I have come across seem to think that the quality of our hereafter depends primarily, sometimes even solely, on what we believe. So, my question is this. How is it just that heaven depends on a matter beyond our control? If our beliefs are not a matter of our volition, why should we be held accountable for them? I'm interested in the LDS perspective on this matter, which seems to me to be an important one.

 

Best wishes, 2RM

[Guest]

Well, the answer to that is simple...

Heaven does not depend on matters beyond our control.

And that's very much detailed, expanded on, confirmed, testified to in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

[Dravin]

Our beliefs, and our volition, seem at least to this extent to be independent. If you doubt this, try this experiment. Become a Muslim for the next five minutes, and then revert back to your Christian beliefs. If you succeed, I stand refuted.

 

 

Isn't that kinda like claiming, "Weight loss is beyond our control. If you doubt this try this experiment, become 25 lbs lighter for the next five minutes and then revert back to 25 lbs heavier. If you succeed I stand refuted." Your quip makes a nice rhetorical flair but it's not really a considered experiment. 

[2ndRateMind]

No, I think there is a significant difference. No one is claiming that weight loss is a simple, instant matter of mind-control. But some people do seem to think that about beliefs. The idea I am questioning is the idea that we can will what we believe. I just don't think we can, though I'm open to contrary arguments.

 

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Dravin]

No, I think there is a significant difference. No one is claiming that weight loss is a simple, instant matter of mind-control. But some people do seem to think that about beliefs. 

 

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

Instantly flip a switch and believe whatever the switch is flipped to? If that is the question, then yes, your 'experiment' is relevant. However...

 

 

 

The idea I am questioning is the idea that we can will what we believe. I just don't think we can, though I'm open to contrary arguments.{

 

 

That we can will what we believe, and that we can instantly will what we believe are not the same thing. Your experiment address the idea of if one can simply flip a mental switch into believing what one might like, it does not address if belief is volitional in nature. I think you'll find that while some on the board will argue for a volitional foundation to belief they aren't likely to agree with your 'flip a switch' premise.

[Leah]

Of course our beliefs are within our control. Who else would have the control?

We're not helpless creatures. We all have free agency to believe and act as we do.

That free agency also includes the ability to change our minds, which can also include changing our beliefs.

I converted to the church from Judaism. The whole "Jesus thing" (as I used to call it) made no sense to me. Then a member of the church shared his testimony with me and invited to read the Book of Mormon and go to church. I took the missionary lessons. I was presented with information that I never heard before.

My beliefs changed. That was my choice. I could have said thanks, but no thanks (and I initially did. I fought changing my mind). But I made the choice to change my beliefs.

At some point, we all choose. To believe X or believe Y. Or not to believe.

[Backroads]

So you're saying Heaven and God should cater to everyone's whims? Because people might not want to search/ponder/pray and rethink their world view and adjust their beliefs based on conclusion and inspiration? If you can't believe something, that's that. Don't whine the world is mean because others believe differently.

[Backroads]

Further, faith in God and loving God is a commandment. One can't say one wants the perks of believing without actually bothering to believe.

Truth is truth. Our beliefs will not win us a field of postmortem unicorns if that isn't the truth. We will have opportunities to learn truth, everyone will. But we can't pick our truths.

It may not be easy to change our beliefs. But believe we must. Faith is compared to a mustard seed. A tiny acceptance, a bit of consideration, can grow monumentally.

If, after all we study and consider and pray, we arrive at something not quite truth, I think sincere effort and faith will be considered. But I likewise believe a lack of effort and will will also be considered.

God is just. Whatever He commands is just. Perhaps inconvenient for mortals but still just.

[2ndRateMind]

Hmmm. It seems I have caused offence. That was not my intention, and I apologise.

 

For such as these, any objection to the Christian world-view is sufficient to throw the whole edifice of faith away. A virgin birth? A speaking serpent? A global flood? Don't make me laugh. And those dinosaur thingies - on which day did God create them, only to destroy them all, later?

 

 

When I said this, I was not saying that these are my own considered opinions. And even if they were, I hope I would never be so impolite as to express them in such a way. I meant that these are the kind of things a non-believer might say. And I am sure that those of you who have been on missions have confronted such opinions, and far worse.

 

Nevertheless, even the idea that we believe what we want to believe has it's problems, too. Would we really want to say that our beliefs are independent of any truth value they might possess, and solely down to what we want to be true?

 

So, we have a dilemma. If our beliefs are independent of our volition, we are not accountable for them. And if they are solely dependent on our volition, truth has no relevance to our beliefs. Somewhere between these extremes, must lie the reality.

 

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Guest]

Hmmm. It seems I have caused offence. That was not my intention, and I apologise.

 

 

I didn't see a single post that indicated such.

 

 

 

 

So, we have a dilemma. If our beliefs are independent of our volition, we are not accountable for them.

 

We have no dilemma on this one because our beliefs are not independent of our volition.

 

 

 

 

And if they are solely dependent on our volition, truth has no relevance to our beliefs.

 

I don't know why you would conclude such.  Our beliefs are solely dependent on our free will - it is the MOST important feature of God's Plan.  Truth is completely relevant to our beliefs because we are born with the Light of Christ (Truth) - everyone starts off as innocent spiritual babes knowing, instinctively, right and wrong.  Every single choice that one makes after that will either increase that Light of Truth or decrease that Light of Truth and every single one of those choices determine our destiny.

 

The Atonement of Christ was made to pay for our wrong choices that were made without complete knowledge of Truth.  This satisfies God's justice - the consequence of spiritual death (separation from God) that must be applied for sin.  That's why it was necessary for Jesus Christ - a God, who has perfect knowledge of Truth and perfectly without sin - to die.  From the time Jesus prayed at Gethsemane to the time that he was resurrected, he was completely separated, spiritually and physically, from God, so much so that Jesus, in his last day cried out to God in agony, "Father, why have you abandoned me?".    The Atonement of Christ made it possible for God to be merciful to those who chose the wrong path with a perfectly good intention but with an incomplete knowledge of Truth.

 

 

 

Somewhere between these extremes, must lie the reality.

 

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

I presented you with what I believe.  It is up to you to chose to believe it.... or not.

[The Folk Prophet]

If we think a thing to be false, we cannot, however much we might want to, believe it. Conversely, if we think a thing to be true, we cannot, however much we might want to, disbelieve it. 

 

Obviously, this idea is not true.

[Windseeker]

So, we have a dilemma. If our beliefs are independent of our volition, we are not accountable for them. And if they are solely dependent on our volition, truth has no relevance to our beliefs. Somewhere between these extremes, must lie the reality.

 

Belief is to have faith in someone or to accept something as true.

The definition of Faith from the scriptures -

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. ~ Hebrews 11:1

 

The mistake many atheists make is that they assume that religious belief is not based on evidence. But on the contrary it is based on evidence. The evidence is a combination of thoughts, feelings, experiences and every bit as much if not more deduction, reasoning and logic that comprise any scientific theory...but I digress.

 

So what is truth vs belief?

 

From a What is Truth? from Dieter F. Uchtdorf of the First Presidency

 

The thing about truth is that it exists beyond belief. It is true even if nobody believes it.

We can say west is north and north is west all day long and even believe it with all our heart, but if, for example, we want to fly from Quito, Ecuador, to New York City in the United States, there is only one direction that will lead us there, and that is north—west just won’t do.

Of course, this is just a simple aviation analogy. However, there is indeed such a thing as absolute truth—unassailable, unchangeable truth.

This truth is different from belief. It is different from hope. Absolute truth is not dependent upon public opinion or popularity. 

 

We will be held accountable for our actions, which are often caused by our beliefs so the two are intertwined. Our hope, faith, belief and actions are constantly changing as we encounter, receive and accept or reject truths. 

 

Truth is absolutely relevant to our beliefs. The closer our actions line up to correct beliefs, and our beliefs line up to the truth the closer to perfection and the greater blessings we will receive.

 

All people are given the "Light of Christ" which gives us a basic sense of what is wrong or right. Yet even that can be snuffed out, by repeatedly choosing evil over good or if environmental conditions where so horrendous as to completely damage that persons mental and spiritual ability to make choices.

 

I don't know any belief system outside the LDS faith that has such great provisions for those living or dead whose environmental circumstances did not allow them in this life to hear the truth of the Gospel or give them an opportunity to believe. Our Heavenly Father will take all things, all factors into account when we are held accountable for our beliefs. 

[2ndRateMind]

The thing about truth is that it exists beyond belief. It is true even if nobody believes it.

 

 

I think this is so, and well put.

 

Nevertheless, I am looking to explore the relationship between the will and belief, rather than the truth and belief. In other words, I am not looking, necessarily, at an idea about knowledge (justified, true, belief, as philosophers would have it) but the way our beliefs may or may not reflect reality, according to the influence of our will. And the implications that relationship might have for popular theology.

 

 Best wishes, 2RM.

[Guest]

I think this is so, and well put.

 

Nevertheless, I am looking to explore the relationship between the will and belief, rather than the truth and belief. In other words, I am not looking, necessarily, at an idea about knowledge (justified, true, belief, as philosophers would have it) but the way our beliefs may or may not reflect reality, according to the influence of our will. And the implications that relationship might have for popular theology.

 

 Best wishes, 2RM.

 

 

Belief, as Windseeker has mentioned, is a product of Will.  But Will is a product of intellect.

 

Realist perspective is always subjective.  Your 6 senses (adding spirit as a 6th sense) provides input to your brain that processes these data to form your reality.  Saying something does not reflect reality because it's not the same perception of reality as yours is erroneous.  Sure, a red apple is a red apple - easy enough to determine when everybody has the same perception of what is red and what is an apple.  A red apple to a man born blind will have a different reality.  But that doesn't mean that the blind man will not be able to know of the Truth of a red apple as he senses it using other means besides visual - maybe, in his perspective, he can determine if an apple is red or not by the way it tastes or smells...  But, maybe he will insist that the red apple is green because it tastes like green.  It doesn't mean that he did not study or research or have a logical explanation for why he believes it is green.  The good news is, that's what we are here on earth for - like a blind man learning and hopefully changing his belief of the color of the apple to come closer to what is True.

 

But the thing I'm trying to impress upon you is that Will does not start at the moment of birth.  Will existed before mortality.  So that, when one points out - a good percentage of people born Catholic die Catholic... or a good percentage of people born Hindu die Hindu, etc. - so belief is simply based on what you are taught to believe with choice not really instrumental in it in the same manner that you did not choose to be born Catholic/Hindu... this is not the case as far as what I believe... because, as taught in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I believe that we had a hand in the choice of the circumstances of our birth in our pre-mortal existence... of course, with God's will ultimately deciding what is the best path for our spirits to learn of Truth.

Edited December 1, 2014 by anatess

[Windseeker]

Who believes against their will?

[Guest]

Who believes against their will?

 

Nobody.  But I don't think this is what he's getting at.

 

Rather, reading between the lines... I think he is trying to imply that our Will is not based on reality - or logic.  Or in other words, we believe what we want to believe regardless of evidence to the contrary.

[Anddenex]

Hello 2ndRateMind:

 

I am not sure I am fully comprehending your initial premise.  I will seek to explain my thoughts according to the premise as I understand it explained and the questions provided.

 

It would not be just for the children of God to be condemned or exalted according to means beyond our control.  Our Father in heaven has given us "moral agency" (one might say volition) and adequate knowledge regarding "good vs. evil" in order to make accurate decisions.  

 

We experience this independence of individual's beliefs and their volition anytime a Christian sins knowingly.  Their actions contradict their belief; however, their actions were their choice.  In scripture, I would specify this has been answered (2 Nephi 27:25), "Forasmuch as this people draw near unto me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their hearts far from me, and their fear towards me is taught by the precepts of men--"

 

EDIT: I have no reason to become Muslim for 5 minutes, thus the experiment appears moot to me, and in 5 five minutes there is no way for me to fully experience a muslim mind set; however, I would claim converts refute this concept, in addition to the principle of Repentance - a change of mind (belief).

Edited December 1, 2014 by Anddenex

[Windseeker]

Nobody.  But I don't think this is what he's getting at.

 

Rather, reading between the lines... I think he is trying to imply that our Will is not based on reality - or logic.  Or in other words, we believe what we want to believe regardless of evidence to the contrary.

 

Well then you probably know by experience. As a convert (and I've heard this elsewhere) even though you changed beliefs you still may feel that loss of comfort or nostalgia for your former belief system. But in a sense that proves that even though habit,  good memory exist from a certain environment the desire to process, accept and act on truth that counters that upbringing is stronger in some people. 

 

(Thinking of former Catholics missing Christmas Mass, or certain former Muslims missing the comfort of the Hajib)

 

edit to add - 

 

BTW I was directing the former question "believes against their will" to the OP, not disagreeing with what you said just to be clear. 

Edited December 1, 2014 by Windseeker

[Guest]

Well then you probably know by experience. As a convert (and I've heard this elsewhere) even though you changed beliefs you still may feel that loss of comfort or nostalgia for your former belief system. But in a sense that proves that even though habit,  good memory exist from a certain environment the desire to process, accept and act on truth that counters that upbringing is stronger in some people. 

 

(Thinking of former Catholics missing Christmas Mass, or certain former Muslims missing the comfort of the Hajib)

 

edit to add - 

 

BTW I was directing the former question "believes against their will" to the OP, not disagreeing with what you said just to be clear. 

 

Oh yes, I know you were directing it to 2RM.

 

About that "conversion process" though... I don't think it's about strength of will to act on truth that is the turning point... I think it's more of the strength of evidence of truth.  And this comes about through study/research/humble plea to the Holy Spirit.  When one is not really invested in the truth, it is easy to dismiss it and go back to what is comfortable.  But, when one is really diligent in the search for truth, a time comes when one just could not deny one's testimony of the truth... at this point, one gets to decide whether to take the risk of the unfamiliarity of a new path or to decide to stick with the familiar cul-de-sac... but, either way, that testimony is imprinted on one's brain/heart and it will eventually cause unhappiness as the internal conflict continues to foster guilt.

[Backroads]

What isn't clear for me is the idea we shouldn't be accountable for our beliefs

[Blackmarch]

I have long thought that some people are not Christians because they simply do not want to be Christians. I was one of them. For such as these, any objection to the Christian world-view is sufficient to throw the whole edifice of faith away. A virgin birth? A speaking serpent? A global flood? Don't make me laugh. And those dinosaur thingies - on which day did God create them, only to destroy them all, later?

 

On the other hand, we cannot simply change our beliefs - interwoven as they are with our whole world view - just because we want to. If we think a thing to be false, we cannot, however much we might want to, believe it. Conversely, if we think a thing to be true, we cannot, however much we might want to, disbelieve it. Our beliefs, and our volition, seem at least to this extent to be independent. If you doubt this, try this experiment. Become a Muslim for the next five minutes, and then revert back to your Christian beliefs. If you succeed, I stand refuted.

 

Yet, most Christian denominations that I have come across seem to think that the quality of our hereafter depends primarily, sometimes even solely, on what we believe. So, my question is this. How is it just that heaven depends on a matter beyond our control? If our beliefs are not a matter of our volition, why should we be held accountable for them? I'm interested in the LDS perspective on this matter, which seems to me to be an important one.

 

Best wishes, 2RM

I agree that one cannot merely drop their deep beliefs at the drop of a pin without having something to move them first. I think there is real good reason why "might, mind, and heart" are all three included when admonished to seek after God. And which is why it takes work

Heaven does not matter on things beyond our control- that is what Christ is for.... Judgement will be based within the realm which you have control over, faith, gospel and direction from God provide a path to a greater sphere of which you will be able to operate within.

However belief is one of the first steps which one has to take to go on that path for your beliefs influence which way you will 'turn your boat's rudder' so to speak.

[Dravin]

What isn't clear for me is the idea we shouldn't be accountable for our beliefs

 

Given the premise, that one isn't in control of one's beliefs, the reasoning is pretty straight forward. Being held accountable for your beliefs, if you don't control them, is akin to being held accountable for other things you don't control such as eye color or nationality.  If your response to the prior is, "But we do have control over our beliefs!" you're getting hung up on the premise, if you try an filter his reasoning through a premise he's not using then the end result will continue to be confusing because it's like trying to make an apple pie using beets for filling.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Dravin