A life without God


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My brother and sister who no longer belong to the church live good, upstanding, moral lives. My sister's son, who is atheist, is good because (as he says) he believes in being good. He believes in doing what is kind and noble and best for humankind. He is a sweet guy with a good heart, and even though he no longer believes, I don't think that makes him a bad person.

 

People who leave religion don't necessarily do so to turn to a life of debauchery, though I think they certainly run more a risk of doing so when they leave God behind.

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My brother-in-law left the Church after he was dis-fellow-shipped after fornicating on his mission, he returned home got a girl pregnant, married her and she left him for another women several years later. He re-married another girl in an open marriage and they live a swinging lifestyle. He burned a Book of Mormon with his daughter and was feeding her pot brownies at the age of 14. 

 

He definitely played a part in my former wife (his sister) leaving me and our kids as he and his wife were both managers for a major software chip manufacture and making six figures each and she couldn't figure out why he seemed so blessed with success when we struggled.  He also pulled in his returned missionary brothers wife into their swinging lifestyle and they ended up divorced. 

 

He's a nice guy though..lol. 

 

I think many who leave the Church throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to true values and they seem to often fall hard and end up much worse then those who were raised outside the influence of the Gospel. They think that if the Church isn't true then fidelity, honesty, chastity, and the Word of Wisdom all the sudden don't apply. 

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My personal feelings is that the church rules and commandments helps me keep my mind and body clean. 

I'd agree.  However, I'd also say there's a big wide world out there chock full of things that help humans keep their mind and body clean.  Other religions, finding a moral center, heck, even being traumatized by a bad guy and not wanting to be like them.  It's absurd to think our church is the only place people can find help in being good people.

 

 

 

A life without God is a life without restrictions. curious what others have to say.

I'd disagree.  Plenty of people self-impose restrictions without God.   

 

To counter anecdote with anecdote:  

I personally know four people who have left the church to one extent or another.  Two maintain faith in God, although beliefs about God, or what faith is, have changed.  At least three are family men, putting much effort and love and heart into wives and children, rejoicing in successes, mourning failures.  Family is central to two.  Broken family and heartache is central to one.  All of them live lives they choose, and they give indication they are trying to choose "good" and reject "bad" (although what that means to them varies by person).

 

Words from President Hinckley to a reporter come to mind:

 

 

I SAY TO PEOPLE OF OTHER CHURCHES, YOU BRING ALL THE GOOD THAT YOU HAVE, AND THEN LET US SEE IF WE CAN ADD TO THAT. NOW THAT'S OUR WHOLE PURPOSE, THAT'S OUR MISSION, THAT'S THE WAY WE OPERATE. WE WANT TO BE COOPERATIVE, WE WANT TO WORK WITH OTHER PEOPLE. WE DO SO RIGHT HERE IN THIS COMMUNITY. WE HAVE GOOD RELATIONSHIPS WITH OTHER CHURCHES. WE GET ALONG VERY WELL WITH THE CATHOLIC PEOPLE, PROTESTANT PEOPLE, OTHER PEOPLES. ISLAM PEOPLES, PEOPLE OF ISLAM. WE…WE HAVE A GOOD RELATIONSHIP. WE LIKE TO BUILD THAT KIND OF RELATIONSHIP WHEREVER WE GO, YES.
Edited by NeuroTypical
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I'd disagree.  Plenty of people self-impose restrictions without God.   

 

Indeed. Take the examples given of 'people off the deep end', ask them if they'd rape someone or if they'd shoot a man in Reno just to see him die if they could get away with it.  Is the response a no? Sounds like restrictions to me. I think it's important to understand that different restrictions aren't the same as no restrictions even if one might be inclined to find the different restrictions inferior or insufficient.

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Ghandi was not Christian but had utmost respect for Christianity.  Hitler was a Catholic who had no respect for Christianity.

 

So really, one's religious affiliation does not decide your place in Heaven.  It's what you do with your life that does.  And one's religious affiliation does not directly imply if a person is good or bad.  It's what you do that does.

 

What's my point?  Well, it's simple really.  There is sin inside the Church and there is sin outside the Church.  Don't worry about which Church he goes to.  Worry about how you can influence him to live a good life.

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This is all anecdotal, but it seems that is what you are looking for.  In my experience, a couple will either leave the church together or one will leave and the other will follow.  Oddly enough, I find this admirable in a way as they still desire a unity in their marriage.  Of the couples I am acquainted with who left, they are still good people who believe in morals and most still believe in God.  There is one lady in my ward whose husband left and she is still trying.  I can’t say she is the most active person, but she still tries to come to church and bring her kids and hold a calling.  It must be so hard.  I worry about her.  Because of that desire that most couples have for unity in their marriage I think it is inevitable that something will eventually give—one way or the other—given enough time.  Either one will follow the other out or the one who left will come back.  The only other options are to learn to live with disunity or to divorce.  I’m sure one could find examples of all of the above.

 

Also, sometimes even a life with God can be a life in many ways without restriction.  My sister still believes in God and principles of faith, but she has rejected principles of repentance, change and being born again and has replaced them with ideas of tolerance, "accepting me for who i am," and "doing what makes me happy because God loves me and will save me no matter what i do."  She is pretty faithful about attending mass with her local catholic congregation, but she is also just fine and dandy with sex outside of marriage and condemning and not forgiving those she feels are "judging her."  Sometimes i wonder how much she REALLY believes in those ideas of tolerance and "accepting others" since it seems she wants them to flow toward her from others and never the other way round.  That’s extraneous to the topic of your thread though.

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My husband and I were very active when we first met and in the early years of our marriage. I was in the Relief Society Presidency and he was Elders Quorum President. The kids came along, and we stopped going when they were young because it was such a battle every Sunday to get them to get ready and attend. They absolutely hated Church. Hated their classes, and hated us for making them go. My husband baptized each of them when they were 8, and we all promptly became inactive. Fast-forward to present. Both kids are inactive still, they drink and have no idea of moral standards and despise organized religion. They have no tolerance for me attending Church and the duties and demands that my new calling entails. I've started attending again these past several months and received a new calling last week.

My husband drinks every night, watches porn, lies, keeps secrets from me about my children and how they are doing because he agrees with them that it's none of my business, hasn't touched me in any affectionate way in over 7 years now. No hugs, cuddles, or kisses, no hand holding, no kind words, no empathy or sympathy about anything that concerns me, and sex has been non-existent for at least 7 years too.

There has been zero support for me for the demands of my new calling (Primary Secretary), and he allows both our children to abuse me verbally and emotionally. Once my son shoved me and knocked me down and I called 911 because I was afraid. My husband got on the phone with them on the house phone and told them I was lying. The police came and threatened to arrest ME for lying and trying to file a false report.

He is impatient and selfish, and views the Church and members with contempt and hatred.

If I had the means to take care of myself financially, I would be out of this hell-hole faster than you could blink.

As it is though, I must endure because I have nowhere else to turn, unless I wanted to be out on the streets homeless.

I'm trying to be a good Mormon by accepting this new calling and attending regularly, counseling with my Bishop, etc., but as the saying goes, "It's hard to soar with the eagles when you're surrounded by turkeys."

This might be awfully harsh, but it's the God's truth: If I had it all to do again, I wouldn't. Not with him.

Edited by Silhouette
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Silhouette, 

 

I'm so sorry for what you are going thru. Only you can decide what you can handle but I would honestly prefer to live in a shelter then deal with that. 

 

There are two things which helped me in my struggles with my own kids

 

I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better by   by Gary Lundberg

 

and 

 

How to Hug a Teenage Porcupine by Dr. John L. Lund

 

Both taught me that my efforts need to be focused on Love and I can't make things all better, and I'm not alone in wanting my family to make better decisions...I have the Creator of this Planet on my side. So I don't need to do all the heavy lifting. I can let some things go. 

 

These things go to how we deal with our spouses as well. 

 

Anyway, big hugs from the other coast.

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Silhouette,

I'm so sorry for what you are going thru. Only you can decide what you can handle but I would honestly prefer to live in a shelter then deal with that.

There are two things which helped me in my struggles with my own kids

I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better by by Gary Lundberg

and

How to Hug a Teenage Porcupine by Dr. John L. Lund

Both taught me that my efforts need to be focused on Love and I can't make things all better, and I'm not alone in wanting my family to make better decisions...I have the Creator of this Planet on my side. So I don't need to do all the heavy lifting. I can let some things go.

These things go to how we deal with our spouses as well.

Anyway, big hugs from the other coast.

Thank you for your kind words, hugs, and suggestions. I'll look into obtaining these books.

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There has been zero support for me for the demands of my new calling (Primary Secretary), and he allows both our children to abuse me verbally and emotionally. Once my son shoved me and knocked me down and I called 911 because I was afraid. My husband got on the phone with them on the house phone and told them I was lying. The police came and threatened to arrest ME for lying and trying to file a false report.

 

I feel so bad for you, Silhouette!  You need help.  The sentence, "he allows... to abuse me", is very telling.  It doesn't matter what he allows.  It only matters what you allow... and I can tell you that it is very hard to rise above the muck to gain the courage and strength for you to be the master of your own destiny and "not allow" anything you don't want to allow.  Children will only respect their elders if the elders demand it.  You need the support system (your husband is not going to be one of them) to have the courage to demand respect... I urge you, very strongly, to find that support system.  Professionals would be best.

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I feel so bad for you, Silhouette! You need help. The sentence, "he allows... to abuse me", is very telling. It doesn't matter what he allows. It only matters what you allow... and I can tell you that it is very hard to rise above the muck to gain the courage and strength for you to be the master of your own destiny and "not allow" anything you don't want to allow. Children will only respect their elders if the elders demand it. You need the support system (your husband is not going to be one of them) to have the courage to demand respect... I urge you, very strongly, to find that support system. Professionals would be best.

I appreciate the words of support. We have been in marriage counseling (non LDS) for well over a year now. It has done a whole lot of nothing. I am under the care of a psychiatrist, who prescribes medications to keep me from going totally insane. It's not helping.

I wanted to go to an LDS counselor for both marriage and psychiatric counseling. My husband agreed for the Bishop to set it up. The Bishop did so, but one of the provisions we had to agree and sign off on was that the LDS counselors would be sharing everything with our Bishop, and keep him advised of everything we discussed, our progress or lack thereof, and any new problems that might arise.

I was fine with this but my husband refused at that point on the grounds that anything we shared should be kept confidential with the counselor and not be shared with anyone, including our Bishop.

Our counselor is not LDS and does not understand LDS beliefs or philosophies. I recall once we were discussing with her what was detrimental to our marriage. I said that my husband's being inactive was detrimental. The counselor laughed aloud and said that was the most ridiculous thing she'd ever heard, thereby fueling my husband's disregard for my feelings on the matter, and digging him even deeper in his trench in his battle against the Church and me.

The counselor does a great deal of harm whenever religion and the importance it has in our lives comes up. She thinks it's fine if I want to participate, but that I'm being unreasonable to expect my husband to do so.

I'm fighting a losing battle. It's my Church friends and me, ranged against my husband and children, and their beliefs, and our marriage counselor.

This new calling is going to take a great deal of time away from my home life. I feel myself drifting further and further away from my husband and children. And the truly sad part, the real tragedy here, is that the only reason I can muster to care is that I'd be out in the cold otherwise.

I guess that does not speak very well of me, either.

Anyway, thanks for your indulgence, everyone. I've derailed the topic without meaning to. My apologies to the OP.

Edited by Silhouette
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Silhouette,

 

If your husband has decided that church is not for him, then your marriage counselor is right.  You are being unreasonable to expect your husband to do something he has clearly disavowed/dislikes.

 

That being said, you are in an abusive relationship.  You need to get out.  I see you are located in CA.  Divorce laws are favorable to spouses in CA.  If you have been married for some amount of time you will be entitled to alimony.

 

Get an attorney, a good one.  Move out.  Find a job.  You are scared for nothing.  It is never as bad as you imagine it will be.  

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Silhouette, after hearing the behaviour of your husband, I have to admit (in much disgrace) that in some instances he sounds like an extreme version of me. If I can attempt to explain your husbands behaviour from my point of view just to give you some comfort I will try.
 

No hugs, cuddles, or kisses, no hand holding, no kind words, no empathy or sympathy about anything that concerns me,

 


I was raised in a good home but I never saw any outwardly love and affection from my father to my mother, thats just the type of man my father and grandfather was. subconsciously I guess I picked up on that and I have never felt comfortable showing love and affection toward my wife in public, maybe a kiss or hug here and there.

Athough I pinpoint my lack of affection as a personality flaw, pornography can also be a source and in my case sporatic porn outbreaks helped to magnify it. your husband is a porn addict which is the extreme.

The lack of affection is sort of a gateway to lacking in other areas like empathy or sympathy. When my wife encounters problems I am always telling her how she caused those problems upon herself. Im embarassed to say that my love for her is conditional, over the years I have been learning to get rid of those conditions and try to be more unconditional, its hard and its a process but I think that as far as I am willing to try then progress will and has been made, God/church/Jesus Christ/atonement all give me hope. Your husband is not trying and by leaving the church (any church for that matter) he has cut God out and I believe there is no hope.

What this all boils down to is the level of respect that he has for you. He has none. I have found that over the years I have hit those bottom levels before and at that point my wife was not only "not important" to me but she was almost like an enemy. that is not healthy and extented periods of being in this state makes it harder to get out of and eventually leading to physical abuse and total disreguard of your existence like how you explained to us. I agree with you that you need to divorce and get away from him.

Like I said earlier, your husband sounds like an extreme version of what I could have possibly become had I not subdued the natural human and carnal desires, which brings me back to my point that man/woman need some kind of moral compass and that it is usually found in organized religions.

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My husband and I were very active when we first met and in the early years of our marriage. I was in the Relief Society Presidency and he was Elders Quorum President. The kids came along, and we stopped going when they were young because it was such a battle every Sunday to get them to get ready and attend. They absolutely hated Church. Hated their classes, and hated us for making them go. My husband baptized each of them when they were 8, and we all promptly became inactive. Fast-forward to present. Both kids are inactive still, they drink and have no idea of moral standards and despise organized religion. They have no tolerance for me attending Church and the duties and demands that my new calling entails. I've started attending again these past several months and received a new calling last week.

My husband drinks every night, watches porn, lies, keeps secrets from me about my children and how they are doing because he agrees with them that it's none of my business, hasn't touched me in any affectionate way in over 7 years now. No hugs, cuddles, or kisses, no hand holding, no kind words, no empathy or sympathy about anything that concerns me, and sex has been non-existent for at least 7 years too.

There has been zero support for me for the demands of my new calling (Primary Secretary), and he allows both our children to abuse me verbally and emotionally. Once my son shoved me and knocked me down and I called 911 because I was afraid. My husband got on the phone with them on the house phone and told them I was lying. The police came and threatened to arrest ME for lying and trying to file a false report.

He is impatient and selfish, and views the Church and members with contempt and hatred.

If I had the means to take care of myself financially, I would be out of this hell-hole faster than you could blink.

As it is though, I must endure because I have nowhere else to turn, unless I wanted to be out on the streets homeless.

I'm trying to be a good Mormon by accepting this new calling and attending regularly, counseling with my Bishop, etc., but as the saying goes, "It's hard to soar with the eagles when you're surrounded by turkeys."

This might be awfully harsh, but it's the God's truth: If I had it all to do again, I wouldn't. Not with him.

Silhouette,

Sorry to read this; hope you find a way out soon...

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Intellectually I know one can leave the church and still care for their family, but of all the ex - Mormon ' s I know only o e has remained with family. My anecdotal experience is lousy.

 

I don't know many ex-Mormons but here are the ones I do know:

1.)  One left, the other followed - still married.

2.)  One left, the other became inactive - still married.

3.)  One got divorced, both stayed in Church for a while and she started dating a non-member who became an investigator but did not get baptized.  She eventually left and they got married.

4.)  One left, took the children with her, her husband is still in the bishopric and they're still married.

 

I don't know what that says of ex-Mormons and their marriages...

Edited by anatess
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Athough I pinpoint my lack of affection as a personality flaw, pornography can also be a source and in my case sporatic porn outbreaks helped to magnify it. your husband is a porn addict which is the extreme.

 

At no point did silhouette state that her husband was a porn addict.  She stated he watched porn. 

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At no point did silhouette state that her husband was a porn addict.  She stated he watched porn. 

 

True, but this sounds a lot like saying, "I didn't say he was a crack addict, I said he smoked crack regularly." I suppose it might be possible to smoke crack regularly without becoming addicted, but I doubt it, and in any case I will assume by default that anyone who smokes crack regularly is addicted to it.

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