Recent discussion with on anti-Mormon website...and painful comments.


Pa Pa

Recommended Posts

It is not secret that many claim we are not, nor ever will be Christian due to our rejection to the Nicene Creed and hard line views of the Trinity as believed by many. So I spoke of and called it "the other Trinity". Faith, Hope and Charity (Love), more importantly the defining aspect of Charity, "the pure Love of Christ". The hurtful comments came from the fact that we believe that the "Trinity", is defined as the "one God", as being "one" in the context of one purpose of God (or the Godhead) is clearly defined by The Lord's Intercessory prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane, where he prayer, "Father, I pray that they be one as you and I are one". A phrase repeated more than one. Anyway, because they believe we are not Christian that we cannot (ever) exercise, Faith, Hope, Charity, no matter what. Is this typical of anti-Mormons, or a lack of and least two of the "other Trinity" (metaphorically speaking) of a lack of "Charity", at least? Comments?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is not secret that many claim we are not, nor ever will be Christian due to our rejection to the Nicene Creed and hard line views of the Trinity as believed by many. So I spoke of and called it "the other Trinity". Faith, Hope and Charity (Love), more importantly the defining aspect of Charity, "the pure Love of Christ". The hurtful comments came from the fact that we believe that the "Trinity", is defined as the "one God", as being "one" in the context of one purpose of God (or the Godhead) is clearly defined by The Lord's Intercessory prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane, where he prayer, "Father, I pray that they be one as you and I are one". A phrase repeated more than one. Anyway, because they believe we are not Christian that we cannot (ever) exercise, Faith, Hope, Charity, no matter what. Is this typical of anti-Mormons, or a lack of and least two of the "other Trinity" (metaphorically speaking) of a lack of "Charity", at least? Comments?

 

Pa Pa, usually I'm the first one to jump at the chance to explain the faith and share spiritual experiences with non-members (including hearing their experiences).  However, if a person's not wanting to listen, not wanting to share, and just wants to bash.... you're not going to get anywhere when someone's heart is that closed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

During my investigator years and then later in my wilderness years, I read a lot of ex-Mormon and anti-Mormon material.  I didn't seek it out exclusively, I just naturally tend to understand the center by studying the extremes.  After reading this material, I usually walked away with the same feeling I have now when I change my cat's litter box: stench and waste and a need to wash my hands pronto.  Those are harsh words, and I don't enjoy writing them, but I'm describing my true reaction.

 

In those anti-Mormon things I found very little constructive engagement or willingness to debate honorably... just a lot of hurt, angry people who thought they could get better if they focused all their pain and anger on the Church on whatever wavelength they could dial up.  Maybe not all of them, but the majority.  And just as a child learns very quickly what buttons to push to retaliate against a parent, many in the anti-Mormon community have learned what buttons to push to capsize faithful Mormons.  That old "Mormonism isn't Christian" button has been pushed so many times that it's ready to break off.

 

My college religion professor (a Calvinist) said he regarded as Christian any group that identified itself as Christian and believed it was sincerely following Christ.  I think he got it about right. 

 

"Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:16), and "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother" (Matthew 12:50).
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

During my investigator years and then later in my wilderness years, I read a lot of ex-Mormon and anti-Mormon material.  I didn't seek it out exclusively, I just naturally tend to understand the center by studying the extremes.  After reading this material, I usually walked away with the same feeling I have now when I change my cat's litter box: stench and waste and a need to wash my hands pronto.  Those are harsh words, and I don't enjoy writing them, but I'm describing my true reaction.

 

In those anti-Mormon things I found very little constructive engagement or willingness to debate honorably... just a lot of hurt, angry people who thought they could get better if they focused all their pain and anger on the Church on whatever wavelength they could dial up.  Maybe not all of them, but the majority.  And just as a child learns very quickly what buttons to push to retaliate against a parent, many in the anti-Mormon community have learned what buttons to push to capsize faithful Mormons.  That old "Mormonism isn't Christian" button has been pushed so many times that it's ready to break off.

 

My college religion professor (a Calvinist) said he regarded as Christian any group that identified itself as Christian and believed it was sincerely following Christ.  I think he got it about right. 

 

"Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:16), and "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother" (Matthew 12:50).

 

 

 

The thing is - The center isn't necessarily the right place to be. It's the most comfortable, as it's easy to justify, but it's not necessarily correct.

 

As an example: There is an argument between two men. One says 2+2 is 6. The other says 2+2 is 4. You come in and magnanimously state that it's clear that the answer is 5, since both men are so passionate they are correct.

 

Just because it's the moderate position doesn't mean it's correct.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dive into anti-Mormon comments. It builds my testimony to have comebacks to their anger and hatred. 

 

If that works for you....  I see no reason to respond to hate and anger.  The actual arguments sure... but I have not really encounters a new argument for a long time

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's all word play. By their definition of "Christian", we aren't. So what? It amounts to name calling. (Which is, I'm sure, exactly how they feel about being called anti-Mormon...though....if the shoe fits......)

 

Anyhow...sticks and stones and all that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

John 13:34-35 gives the best instructions I know of to tell if someone claiming to be a Christian is in fact, a Christian.  They are, appropriately, Christ's words.

 

 34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

 

 

I might be reading it wrong, but there's no debate about trinities or Nicene creeds anywhere as far as I can see.

Edited by Laniston
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's all word play. By their definition of "Christian", we aren't. So what? It amounts to name calling. (Which is, I'm sure, exactly how they feel about being called anti-Mormon...though....if the shoe fits......)

 

Some few are honest enough to admit that they are in fact anti-Mormon, though these will usually draw a distinction and say they are actually "anti-Mormonism". I could accept this distinction if not for the numerous personal attacks and verbal slights against practicing Latter-day Saints.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A wild guess here, but I wonder if their argument was:  If you do not have God, and God is love, then you cannot have/express loved.  It's an academic, semantic, and, I suppose, theological argument.  What I would say to them, as a fellow Trinitarian, is: Don't be harsh-toned and mean-seeming when you are trying to tell someone you have love and they don't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is not secret that many claim we are not, nor ever will be Christian due to our rejection to the Nicene Creed and hard line views of the Trinity as believed by many. So I spoke of and called it "the other Trinity". Faith, Hope and Charity (Love), more importantly the defining aspect of Charity, "the pure Love of Christ". The hurtful comments came from the fact that we believe that the "Trinity", is defined as the "one God", as being "one" in the context of one purpose of God (or the Godhead) is clearly defined by The Lord's Intercessory prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane, where he prayer, "Father, I pray that they be one as you and I are one". A phrase repeated more than one. Anyway, because they believe we are not Christian that we cannot (ever) exercise, Faith, Hope, Charity, no matter what. Is this typical of anti-Mormons, or a lack of and least two of the "other Trinity" (metaphorically speaking) of a lack of "Charity", at least? Comments?

To become "one" with anyone requries charity.   It is not the same thing but the method by which it happens, any more than a computer is the same thing as an internet forum.  The pure love of Christ demonstrated by what happened in the Garden of Gesthemane entails the ability to feel what another feels, to know what another knows and to support them.  Hypothetically speaking, if two people were to know all the other was thinking, experiencing, feeling etc. as if they were there experiencing it for their self, is that not the definition of "one"?   Christ showed us that power by the Atonement.  If we fully receive the effects of the atonement then we too can have that power, the power to love our neighbor as our self.  Christ, having experienced that power while on Earth and what it really means to empathize with another wants us all to have that power too.  It is what could make a person eternal. If limited to self experience it is finite.  When the gates of experience can be shared with all, it becomes eternal, like the experience of joy we have when someone else is baptized. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest MormonGator

If that works for you....  I see no reason to respond to hate and anger.  The actual arguments sure... but I have not really encounters a new argument for a long time

It oddly does. I don't recommend it for everyone though.

 

One guy was big on anti-lds "facts" and I shot down each one. To his credit, he did say he was wrong on a few and apologized. 

Edited by MormonGator
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I remember one time, a guy was telling me about how we are uncharitable people.

He took the aid number on the lds website, divided it by our current day offical membership number, and divided it by the number of years that it said we donated over (I can't remember what our website said, x dollars donated since 1973 or something)

I did enjoy taking him to town on that. But I agree with the majority, let them rot in their own stink. Counter obvious lies when they are brought before you though.

Edited by jerome1232
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dive into anti-Mormon comments. It builds my testimony to have comebacks to their anger and hatred.

I do the same, I am well know in anti-Mormon circles. Maybe it comes from my eight years in the Army and 23 as a police officer...find it hard to back down from a fight. Even when I stay away, I get stalked to a pro-Mormon site and get PM's from people as to why I did not respond or why I left. I just recently went back...as when I broke my back I found it just made me feel worse. So I stayed away for almost two years. But I must say, it does improve your debate skills. :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

John 13:34-35 gives the best instructions I know of to tell if someone claiming to be a Christian is in fact, a Christian. They are, appropriately, Christ's words.

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

I might be reading it wrong, but there's no debate about trinities or Nicene creeds anywhere as far as I can see.

It was a thread bout the Trinity, which cause me to start one about what I dubbed "the other Trinity", as in the Trinity of love and hope Christ and Paul spoke of...
Link to comment
Share on other sites

John 13:34-35 gives the best instructions I know of to tell if someone claiming to be a Christian is in fact, a Christian. They are, appropriately, Christ's words.

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

I might be reading it wrong, but there's no debate about trinities or Nicene creeds anywhere as far as I can see.

It was a thread bout the Trinity, which cause me to start one about what I dubbed "the other Trinity", as in the Trinity of love and hope Christ and Paul spoke of...
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A wild guess here, but I wonder if their argument was: If you do not have God, and God is love, then you cannot have/express loved. It's an academic, semantic, and, I suppose, theological argument. What I would say to them, as a fellow Trinitarian, is: Don't be harsh-toned and mean-seeming when you are trying to tell someone you have love and they don't.

Some stressed that but most taught that "no Mormon" could possess any of the traits, as they are none Christian.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A wild guess here, but I wonder if their argument was: If you do not have God, and God is love, then you cannot have/express loved. It's an academic, semantic, and, I suppose, theological argument. What I would say to them, as a fellow Trinitarian, is: Don't be harsh-toned and mean-seeming when you are trying to tell someone you have love and they don't.

Some stressed that but most taught that "no Mormon" could possess any of the traits, as they are none Christian.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some stressed that but most taught that "no Mormon" could possess any of the traits, as they are none Christian.

 

Some of the greatest Christian thinkers have written about the imagio deo that is in each living person. We're all created in his image, so we all have love in us.  Sometimes our perception of being correct actually hinders the expression of God in us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
(1 Peter 3:15-16) 

am i in keeping with this, if when challenged i run away, and console myself with ignorance? 
or if i respond with animosity and accusations? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.

(1 Peter 3:15-16) 

am i in keeping with this, if when challenged i run away, and console myself with ignorance? 

or if i respond with animosity and accusations? 

 

This refers to what we commonly call "bearing your testimony". It does not encourage Bible-bashing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...