Difficult subject to address...

[Beccabee2]

I will be going into the field of study of forensic psychology. This entails a lot of detailed learning of criminal acts and behavior, as well as victim advocacy. One of the things I have a desire to focus on is victim counseling for those who have been abused, in all shapes and forms. 

This is something that requires me to step outside of my religion, because depending on the victim, they may not believe in God or want to discuss in it their counseling or grief sessions. What I believe will be difficult for me is reconciling my own understanding of our loving Heavenly Father and the horrible grief and pain these women and men have gone through, that don't have the knowledge of the atonement. It's also hard when I come across the philosophical arguments by others who ask "How could your loving God allow someone to be harmed in such a heinous way?" I have learned from previous experiences that I will never win that argument with those people, so I try to avoid it at all costs, but it's still something that is even hard for me to understand. I fully and completely understand the power of agency, as well as the comforting power of the Holy Ghost. But sometimes there's so much evil that comes from my area of study that it can be hard to balance my understanding of this temporary life and the trials it comes with, and the evil that I study and will be involved in. 

This is something that is hard for me to discuss with others because I usually get the response of "well you chose this profession. If you didn't want to deal with the evil, you could have chose something else". 

[priesthoodpower]

Good luck bro, you need to seperate the two, when you walk out that door put your business hat on, when you come home take it off. My father in law is a police detective and does just that, he is the most happiest funniest guy I know even though he deals with murder cases atleast once a week.

 

The world needs people like you or else the world won't turn I commend you for persuing such a difficult profession.

[MarginOfError]

God created a world, gave man agency, and stepped away to let us make our own choices.  Man stepped up and created the depravity you see in your field.  Man also stepped up with the most exquisite charity to combat that depravity.

 

Really horrific things happen to some people because some human being suck.  We need more people combating that wickedness and more people helping to heal the scars that come to its victims.  It isn't an easy thing to look at or accept, but it is the reality of life.

 

Yes, you will have to step outside of your religion at times.  This is called empathy.  it is a good trait and it will serve you well both in your profession and in your religion.  You may not be able to teach your clients about the atonement directly, but with your empathy and compassion, you can help them access the balm it offers, even if they do not realize it.  As you learn to do this, you will find that the Atonement comes with so much more than prayer and good feelings.  it comes with self exploration, self expression, healthy relationships, forgiveness, and compassion.  Taking full advantage of the Atonement requires improving one's self and overcoming one's trials.  You may not be able to help them complete their journey to the Savior, but you can set them on that road.  That is no small thing.

[The Folk Prophet]

In my opinion as soon as you "step outside your religion" you have failed them. You can and should, of course, choose what to say about that religion, and that may well often mean nothing at all. But you, yourself, should never step outside it in your thinking, faith, belief, and trust. There is no comfort beyond. Only in and through the Atonement of the Savior can any true comfort be found.

[Dravin]

Yes, you will have to step outside of your religion at times.  This is called empathy.  

 

Indeed, if you are unable to step outside of your own paradigm, even if just temporarily, it hampers your ability to understand anything outside of your own paradigm. You can see this here on the boards, even though it's generally the more intellectual side of things and less emotional. People unwilling or unable (either consistently or as a momentary lapse) to see if something has internal structure and validity but instead insists on imposing their own premises when arguably trying to understand something and then being baffled that, "Your reasoning doesn't make sense with my premise!" 

 

This doesn't mean one has to accept the other person's premise as valid, but if you can't or won't apply their premise in a sandbox then it really hampers understanding.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Dravin

[The Folk Prophet]

"Your logic doesn't make sense with my premise!" 

 

Irrelevant. The proper response (or question) is whether the logic makes sense with the Lord's premise. (By which I mean eternal truths. The Lord doesn't exactly have premises.) :)

[Dravin]

Irrelevant. The proper response (or question) is whether the logic makes sense with the Lord's premise. (By which I mean eternal truths. The Lord doesn't exactly have premises.) :)

 

It's not irrelevant if the goal is understanding where someone else is coming from. 

[The Folk Prophet]

It's not irrelevant if the goal is understanding where someone else is coming from. 

 

It is, frankly, impossible to do what you're suggesting. Unless, of course, one has gone through the Atonement. The only one who can understand where we are all coming from is Christ.

 

But I don't want to get into an argument where others utterly fail to understand where I'm coming from as they argue that understanding where others are coming from is important and valid. So I'm backing out.

[Dravin]

It is, frankly, impossible to do what you're suggesting. Unless, of course, one has gone through the Atonement. The only one who can understand where we are all coming from is Christ.

 

 

 

Just what am I suggesting? Your phrasing suggests you and I mean different things when we talk about understanding where one is coming from. For instance, I wasn't trying to suggest any sort of omniscient level of understanding of someone's life and thought history, though maybe I'm reading something into your phrasing that you don't intend. 

 

 

But I don't want to get into an argument where others utterly fail to understand where I'm coming from as they argue that understanding where others are coming from is important and valid. So I'm backing out.

 

Given your premise, and assuming you do understand what I mean when I talk about understanding where someone is coming from, it would indeed be fruitless, and even if fruitful it would be pointless, for us to make an effort in understanding where the other is coming from. As such, backing out of the conversation makes sense.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Dravin

[The Folk Prophet]

Given your premise, and assuming you do understand what I mean when I talk about understanding where someone is coming from, it would indeed be fruitless, and even if fruitful it would be pointless, for us to make an effort in understanding where the other is coming from. As such, backing out of the conversation makes sense.

 

*shrug* I can't say I understand. I hope I do. But my backing out it more related to wanting to avoid an argument that I don't think is based around a whole lot of skin in the game, if that makes sense.

 

I expect one can approach empathy through a variety of means and, whereas some may be more effective than others, the ultimate issue in all our lives is our relationship and choices concerning God and His Son. I expect we agree on that.

[Dravin]

I expect one can approach empathy through a variety of means and, whereas some may be more effective than others, the ultimate issue in all our lives is our relationship and choices concerning God and His Son. I expect we agree on that.

 

Actually we don't agree on that but, and please don't take this as some sort of rhetorical twist, I do understand why you think that given the premises you hold (the truthfulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ).

 

 

I expect one can approach empathy through a variety of means and, whereas some may be more effective than others, the ultimate issue in all our lives is our relationship and choices concerning God and His Son. I expect we agree on that.

 

 

Please note that I wasn't trying to claim empathy is only possible through such means. My position is only that it is more difficult to understand someone else and where they are coming from without such means. Additionally while my post followed MoE's mention of empathy my focus was in understanding. It occurs to me you were probably focusing on the vicariously experiencing portion of the concept of empathy, and thus our big disconnect. I was focusing on the understanding portion of empathy as it would apply to this context. It was a failure on my part to clearly delineate just what I was talking about.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Dravin

[The Folk Prophet]

Actually we don't agree on that but, and please don't take this as some sort of rhetorical twist, I do understand why you think that given the premises you hold (the truthfulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ).

 

I spoke without looking to the left at your "none" religious affiliation. My bad.

[mordorbund]

You may enjoy reading President Kimball's talk Tragedy or Destiny (included in the Church manual). He starts with a whole list of specific cases and asks why. He never answers the question for specific cases.

 

 

I wish I could answer these questions with authority, but I cannot. I am sure that sometime we’ll understand and be reconciled. But for the present we must seek understanding as best we can in the gospel principles.

 

He then explores some general principles that may or may not be relevant for a given case.

 

In your professional practice, just because you can't preach doesn't mean you can't minister. I would encourage you to remember your covenants. When someone comes in mourning, mourn with her. When someone comes in needed comfort, comfort him.

[Guest intra]

the "problem of evil" is a false problem. it's intellectual arrogance.

the moment we say 'a good god would not allow ...' we have denied the sovereignty of God and thought to make ourselves His judge. 

have a look at Job - God never answered his specific objections and questions. what He said was 'who is this who darkens counsel without knowledge?' Paul, too, in Romans 9, gives no other explanation for how it is God can show mercy to one and not to another except 'who are you, o man, to answer back to God?' also Haggai, in his objection to the Lord using a wicked nation to chastise Israel, wasn't given an 'explanation' but was humbled by God's response. 

when a person says 'a loving god would do this..' or 'a benevolent god wouldn't allow such-and-such..' what that person is saying is that they know better than the Almighty how the universe ought to be run. this is godlessness, idolatry of the ego. 

my friend, when you get your own universe, you can rule it in the way that you see fit. however at the present time it so happens that this universe belongs to the Lord God, not us, and what He has called us to do is to walk humbly before Him and to love mercy and justice. not to be a 'back-seat driver.'

 

[Guest intra]

you can't make a single hair on your head grow by worrying. 

complaining won't do the trick either. 

 
 

[mirkwood]

You will learn to balance your beliefs and your work.  I've done it for 17 years now as a police officer.  My religious beliefs dictate my personal behavior.  This does not mean my religious beliefs dictate someone else's personal behavior.  My job is to deal with how someone else has exercised their personal behavior. 

 

Your role will be to help an individual with their problems.  Not proselytize them.  If religious discussion is helpful AND wanted, then you can go there.  If not...don't.  That decision is in the hands of the patient.  God gives everyone their agency, some exercise it better then others.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I debated about whether or not to share this...

 

I have many thoughts on this topic...so many I wrote a book on it.  There's a link in my signature.  BUT if anyone reading this is interested, I'll give you a FREE ebook copy of my book.  Just send me a PM with your email.

 

It's not spam, if I'm not trying to sell you something, right?   :)

 

Edited to add:

 

On the topic of childhood sexual abuse, here's a couple great Ensign articles:

 

Hope and Healing in Recovering from Abuse by Sarah E. Miller

In this article Sis. Miller, a therapist, gives thoughtful answers to questions probably all of us have had about Heavenly Father and healing:

Why did He let this happen? Why am I unable to feel his love? How can I forgive? How Can My Wounds Heal?

She ends with a message of hope: “Many times I have counseled Latter-day Saints recovering from the trauma of abuse, I can testify that though recovery may seem difficult and fraught with temporary setbacks, the Savior offers solace to aching hearts, heals wounded souls, and changes sorrow into joy.”

Healing the Spiritual Wounds of Sexual Abuse by Ann Pritt

Ann Pritt is also a therapist.  In this wonderful article she outlines the spiritual wounds that we are all too familiar with, and offers helpful insights and scriptures.  She discusses finding hope in the atonement, improving our relationship with Heavenly Father, learning about agency, seeking peace through prayer, and other issues.  I found it very helpful and insightful.

And my favorite--Sis. Okazaki:

Edited December 10, 2014 by LiterateParakeet

[Seminarysnoozer]

I will be going into the field of study of forensic psychology. This entails a lot of detailed learning of criminal acts and behavior, as well as victim advocacy. One of the things I have a desire to focus on is victim counseling for those who have been abused, in all shapes and forms. 

This is something that requires me to step outside of my religion, because depending on the victim, they may not believe in God or want to discuss in it their counseling or grief sessions. What I believe will be difficult for me is reconciling my own understanding of our loving Heavenly Father and the horrible grief and pain these women and men have gone through, that don't have the knowledge of the atonement. It's also hard when I come across the philosophical arguments by others who ask "How could your loving God allow someone to be harmed in such a heinous way?" I have learned from previous experiences that I will never win that argument with those people, so I try to avoid it at all costs, but it's still something that is even hard for me to understand. I fully and completely understand the power of agency, as well as the comforting power of the Holy Ghost. But sometimes there's so much evil that comes from my area of study that it can be hard to balance my understanding of this temporary life and the trials it comes with, and the evil that I study and will be involved in. 

This is something that is hard for me to discuss with others because I usually get the response of "well you chose this profession. If you didn't want to deal with the evil, you could have chose something else". 

I am sure a lot of people on this forum will say 'oh boy, here we go again' but this is one of those specific situations where it is really important to have a strong testimony about the differences between the physical and the spiritual of our dual being nature.

 

The carnality we take on in this life is temporary.  True evil is to take in the carnality as self and make it part of our spiritual nature that carries with us into the next life.  It is possible to be in the world but not be of the world.  It is hard for us to now comprehend how the effects of being in the world, being exposed to such evil, does not automatically scar our spirit but it doesn't.  The power of the evil that comes from carnality is only effective if one lets it be. It is possible to be exposed to much evil in this world and come out being unscathed. I think the easiest way to appreciate that is to separate our, as best one can, the nature of the body from the nature of the spirit and to realize that those things that come from dust will return to dust.

 

D&C 89 speaks directly of this battle and the way to not be overwhelmed by its evil; "

“And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;

“And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;

“And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.”

 

We were never expected to overcome the evil of this world on our own.  We are supposed to feel the need for a Savior to help us avoid being affected by the evil in this world.  It is a good thing that you feel overwhelmed by it.  You are in a tough profession because in order to really avoid the affects of evil around us people need to rely on the Savior.  Some people just give into it.  If one doesn't want to give into it then they must turn to the Savior for help.  It can't be overcome by therapy alone.

 

Was Christ' spirit made unclean by being around evil?  Did He try to avoid being around sinners? 

 

Teachings of Joseph Fielding Smith; "

The Lord expects us to forsake the evils of the world and live as becometh Saints.

We are living in an evil and wicked world. But while we are in the world, we are not of the world. We are expected to overcome the world and to live as becometh saints. … We have greater light than the world has, and the Lord expects more of us than he does of them.⁵

In the seventeenth chapter of John—I can hardly read this chapter without tears coming to my eyes— … our Lord, in praying to his Father in the tenderness of all his soul because he knew the hour had come for him to offer himself as a sacrifice, prayed for his disciples. In that prayer he said,

“I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

“They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

“Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.” (John 17:15–17.)"

 

We can't overcome the world without being exposed to the evils of the world.  And we also cannot overcome the world by ourselves.  We are exposed to evil so that we should feel overwhelmed by it.  And in that way, one turns to Our Savior.

 

One of the steps of not letting evil around us affect us so strongly; D&C 59 "9 And that thou mayest more fully keep thyself unspotted from the world, thou shalt go to the house of prayer and offer up thy sacraments upon my holy day;

 10 For verily this is a day appointed unto you to rest from your labors, and to pay thy devotions unto the Most High;"

 

The other important step is to pitch ones tent towards the alter of God and not towards Sodom. Be a light to the world, even in ones profession, that is our ultimate goal, to have our eye single to the glory of God and not the praise of man.  In other words, don't be afraid to suggest methods of spiritual strengthening to these people as that truly is the only way to overcome evil in this world without it becoming part of us (being of the world).

[Misshalfway]

I bet it's hard.  You're the person who will see the worst of human agency.  Perhaps you have the chops to handle it somehow. 

 

But I don't think the questions about a loving God allowing bad things to happen is a unique one.  I think we all have to come to terms with that one, perhaps some more than others.  Frankly, I get a little put out that God doesn't save me from the torture of family parties. :)

 

Seriously, it sounds like you have a huge opportunity for long conversations with God about all this.  Perhaps your confusion is exactly what's needed to get the conversation started.