Am I Asking Too Much?

[marriedbutlonely]

I am an LDS wife and mother that has been married for 23 years.  I am my husband’s 3^rd wife and he is my 2^nd husband.  I married my first husband in the temple only a year out of high school, but after 2 years, I divorced him because of pornography.  My current husband was raised LDS, but he was not active for much of his life.  However, I fell in love with him because of his straight-forward honest-ness.  We didn’t ever play dating games with each other, and I needed that honesty after my first marriage.  We had so much fun together traveling and getting to know one another even though I longed for a child.

 

We had a beautiful son after 8 years of marriage; and things began to change.  We both work full-time in order to help make our household income.  We had two more perfect little boys and one miscarriage in between.  We had some very inspirational things happen a few years ago, and we made it to be sealed in the temple with our children (which was always my goal). 

 

However, my husband began to get moodier and moodier over the years.  He would have happy times for a few weeks, and then get moody.  Unfortunately, the happy times began to be less and less.  Finally, after a very horrifying fight last year, I asked him to move out.  I was having severe anxiety attacks and his anger finally scared me.  He has never hit me, but he is very animated in his anger and his body language is extremely hostile.  I was very afraid of his pent up anger.  Verbal and mental abuse are definitely tangible.

 

I went to my bishop many times last year before I finally asked my husband to move out.  I had said many times – and I meant it – that I did not like living in a house of anger.  After a month, our bishopric actually made me let him move back in.  My husband was spiritually touched by our bishopric and it did make a difference in our relationship.  The adversary is very strong though.  He began to slip back in to his old ways, and the anger has been coming back.  I just can’t take it anymore.  I am not blameless in this either.  I know that I have things to work on.  The latest problem is that he told me that I am "colder than a block of ice."  About a week after this incident, he decided he wasn’t mad at me anymore, and he wanted things to go back to normal.  I just couldn’t.  I asked him for an apology so that we could move forward, and I explained to him how much that had hurt me.  I hate what my boys are learning about relationships.  I am ready to ask him to move out again.  Am I asking too much?  I am just having a hard time moving past this one without an apology; and on two separate occasions he has flat out refused to apologize.  He said he has said all he will about this subject.  I just don’t know where to turn!  There have actually been times when I have thought about ending my life because I am so lonely.  Then, my boys are my sunshine.  They have brought me through these tough times; and they give me hope that I am not as terrible as I feel like I am at times.

[Vort]

Hi, marriedbutlonely.

 

You say you married your first husband at about 19, then left him after two years "because of pornography". This would have been no later than 1990, so clearly his pornography infatuation/addiction could not have been internet-based. I assume we're talking magazines, VCR flicks, and ratty, disgusting theaters. Do you mean that he was obsessively into pornography, insisting on watching porn flicks with you and trying out porn-inspired sexual moves on you? Or that he simply ignored you altogether, satisfying himself instead in his porn? Or do you mean that you were so disgusted by pornography and the fact that he consumed it that, when he didn't or couldn't make an immediate clean break from his addiction, you packed it in? Or do you mean something else?

 

I ask because it seems relevant to your present situation. If your first husband was actually abusive or neglectful toward you based on pornography, the damage caused by such evil actions might continue to influence your marriage today. On the other hand, if you left your first husband because, in your youth and naivete, you couldn't imagine any decent human being viewing such filth, then perhaps you need to learn some important lessons about what it means to love another person.

 

You have been married to your husband for well over two decades. In all that time, he has never once struck you. Yet you claim to be afraid of him because of the potential for physical violence. This is utterly irrational. It makes no sense whatsoever. If, after a perfect, twenty-three-year track record of never even once touching you in any violent way, he still does not merit your trust that he won't hit you, then the problem does not lie with him. It lies with you.

 

If your husband has gotten moodier the last few years, doesn't it occur to you that he may have some health issues going on? Has he been seen by a doctor or two? I would think that the natural response of a loving wife to a frightening change in her husband's demeanor would be to seek his welfare and try to discover if something is wrong, not throw him out of the house and quake in fear.

 

Based on your brief sketch and on my own biased interpolations, I think your husband sounds like a pretty good guy to put up with being thrown out of his own house based on his wife's irrational fears. Knowing only what you wrote above, I'd say the best place to start looking for a solution to your problems is within yourself rather than in trying to change your husband.

[Bini]

Since you already admit there are things you can work on as well, I won't go there, but I did want to express that temper and verbal abuse is a valid reason to want refuge (and to protect your children) even if your spouse has never physically struck you. You don't need physical scars as proof that things have grossly crossed the line.

I'd recommend seeking counselling from someone that specialises in at risk and troubled marriages. Go with your husband or go alone but get some outside perspective.

[Guest]

So... my son has this best friend... he is in sophomore year of high school and is top of his class, well on track for college scholarships including Ivy League...jiujitsu and wrestling champion, active in the LDS Church even if he's not a member because his parents won't approve the baptism... just all around amazing young man.  We are very close to the family.

 

His dad is his mom's 2nd husband.  The first husband physically abused her which is why she divorced him.  So.. 17 years into the 2nd marriage (just last month), the couple got into an argument which ended up in him slapping his wife hard.  The mom is now filing for divorce... my son's best friend's grades went down the crapper and he quit sports... he still goes to the Church and even joined the choir but he confided that it's a place that he can just be away from his parents.  CPS got called by the school because the kid told a classmate he wants to die... it's a big mess.

 

Anyway... 17 years of a great marriage went down the crapper largely because of the wife's first marriage.  The dad's job has been giving him problems and to keep his income he had to travel a lot, so much so that the mom would go to him on the weekends and leave the children by themselves at home for days... it was a high stress situation and they don't even remember what caused the argument that ended up in the physical abuse... But the mom is scared now.  She is scared of what her husband is capable of... The dad is scared too... he's scared of losing the children because CPS got involved.  So the battle continues and now they're seeking divorce in a hotly contested battle... all borne from both being scared.

 

In the meantime, the kids' lives went upside down in a heartbeat and it's doubtful that the sophomore is even going to finish high school.  I hardly recognize him now.  He went from sunny kid to emo kid in a few weeks!

 

Sometimes... it's just such a good idea to just relax, breathe, and re-evaluate the situation thinking beyond ourselves and see if we can all love each other's imperfections.  Sometimes, it is worth the risk to just accept it and move forward, especially when there are kids involved.

Edited December 10, 2014 by anatess

[yjacket]

Matthew 18:21-22

21 ¶Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Many times our lives would be so much better if we implemented the Savior's advice.  There is a thread on giving offense here, but in many ways the better thing to do is to learn how to forgive offense.

Forgiving does not require an apology.  Requiring an apology is a self-serving mechanism wherein it makes us feel superior and better than others.  Forgiveness does not require us to put ourselves in situations that would lead to harm, but it does require us to let go.  Only through the Atonement of Jesus Christ can we learn to truly forgive others.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/04/of-you-it-is-required-to-forgive?lang=eng

 

And this much I can almost guarantee, if you frankly forgive him and work on your marriage, he will at some point most likely apologize, but when he does it will be true, heartfelt and sincere.

Edited December 10, 2014 by yjacket

[mrmarklin]

Really not enough information to render any serious advice from me.  I'd see an independent counselor if you really want things to work out.

 

But I'm curious:  How did the bishop make you let him move back in? 

[Vort]

But I'm curious:  How did the bishop make you let him move back in? 

 

Honestly, I find this wording to be an indication of someone who wants to shift all blame away from herself. Saying "the bishop FORCED me to allow my husband back in!" makes her the poor victim of bullies rather than an agent in her own decisions.

[mdfxdb]

OP

 

Have you tried apologizing to your husband?  And, yes I think you are unreasonable in light of what you have so far disclosed.

[marriedbutlonely]

It is hard to give all of the information here as it would be a novel.  But, to answer a few questions, my first husband's pornography problem was not just me being naïve.  He also basically lied to me about who he was when we married.  He preferred pornography to me, hid it all over the house and outside of the house too, and he was also somewhat abusive.  He never once went to church after we married, and began to tell me his ideology immediately AFTER we married which included a lot of anti-Mormon information.  I did go to therapy and I dealt with this issue in depth.  He went on to have several other relationships go south as well. 

 

As far as my current relationship, when we were separated (he agreed to move out in a counseling session), we did go to several counseling sessions.  He admitted in the last session that one of his major motivating factors for his anger is that he is jealous of our children and the attention they get from me.  He admitted this is a problem of his because he "had" me all to himself for 8 years before having children.  The counselor at first questioned my fear, but she also saw his anger first-hand and called him a bully right in our session.  She told him to stop acting like that; and we actually made progress after that. 

 

As far as my bishopric "making" me allow him to move back in - it really did happen.  The whole bishopric showed up at my house with my husband in tow.  They told me that they would not leave my house until I let him move back in as they thought that he was making good progress and they had a very spiritual experience the night before.  I think it was a good thing at the time; however, the negative that came from it is that my husband has since refused to go to any further counseling sessions.  When the mother of the children is the major caretaker and an equal contributor to the household income; it was not at all unreasonable for the counselor and myself to suggest that my husband be the one to move out.  As a husband and a father, I would think that some of you would understand that uprooting the kids during the separation would have been more harmful to them than staying in their home.  Also, we were very careful to go to the counselor with our children to let them know what was happening so that it would impact them less.  My children are a great priority in staying with my husband; and in the decision on whether to leave my husband. 

 

My problem is that my kids are being affected by this.  I know without more information, you cannot likely help me.  But, it is hard to put 20 years of information on line.  Obviously, there are snap judgments to be made by people who do not know me.  However, I do not make snap decisions; and the decision to stay or leave has been agonized over for a long time.  I do continue to go to counseling without my husband to try to hear from an unbiased source if I am the only problem in this situation and what I can do to improve myself.   

[marriedbutlonely]

 

Matthew 18:21-22

21 ¶Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Many times our lives would be so much better if we implemented the Savior's advice.  There is a thread on giving offense here, but in many ways the better thing to do is to learn how to forgive offense.

Forgiving does not require an apology.  Requiring an apology is a self-serving mechanism wherein it makes us feel superior and better than others.  Forgiveness does not require us to put ourselves in situations that would lead to harm, but it does require us to let go.  Only through the Atonement of Jesus Christ can we learn to truly forgive others.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/04/of-you-it-is-required-to-forgive?lang=eng

 

And this much I can almost guarantee, if you frankly forgive him and work on your marriage, he will at some point most likely apologize, but when he does it will be true, heartfelt and sincere.

 

I would love to believe this.  Unfortunately, after time and time again of having him say things in anger that leave a path of destruction.  And, time and time again of forgiving him without an apology, I know that one is not coming.  Part of the reason for me wanting an apology is that my counselor says that I need to break the cycle that has been occurring in our marriage.  She said that we need to retrain ourselves to stop this cycle and to retrain ourselves to communicate the issues better.  Without communicating our issues and resolving them, we have years of unresolved issues coming between us.  I am honestly just trying to listen to my LDS counselor and to my own inner voice telling me that I do not deserve the treatment that I am getting.

[marriedbutlonely]

Sorry, one more thing I must note.  I do NOT hold any ill-will towards my bishopric at all!  They are very spiritual men that have the best of intentions.  They spent hours working with our family; and I know that they prayed for us daily.  They are very wonderful men that are serving our ward wonderfully.  

[mdfxdb]

 

 

As far as my bishopric "making" me allow him to move back in - it really did happen.  The whole bishopric showed up at my house with my husband in tow.  They told me that they would not leave my house until I let him move back in as they thought that he was making good progress and they had a very spiritual experience the night before.  

 

I'm sure they prayed, then felt good, which is a common feeling to have after prayer......

 

I would have called the cops.

 

You do not need an apology to move forward.  If you decide to let him continue with the relationship then you need to make the conscious decision to let that happen.  You need to set boundaries, and hold him to them.  You need to realize who he is and decide for yourself if it is worth having him in your life or not.  If the answer is no, then divorce.  

Edited December 10, 2014 by mdfxdb

[EarlJibbs]

Is it important that he apologize? Sure. But I wouldn't let that stand in the way of you. Him not apologizing is not part of his anger or your larger issues you have with him. 

 

He must get to the point where HE sees the issue with his anger and that HE wants to change it. There are different ways of speaking just as there are different ways of abusing someone. With our words, our body language, in writing... I politely disagree with some that just because you have not been struck physically (and other points) that this all seems a problem with you. Anger, yelling, aggressive motions, these are not acts of love. We all know that anger and yelling, losing control over ourselves are  not gifts of God. They have no place in a loving relationship or at home. You have a valid concern over it. 

 

How serious this is, is stated in the Proclamation to the Family stating that “that individuals … who abuse spouse or offspring, … will one day stand accountable before God.”

 

 

 

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1998/04/agency-and-anger?lang=eng

 

In the Joseph Smith Translation of Ephesians 4:26 [Eph. 4:26], Paul asks the question, “Can ye be angry, and not sin?” The Lord is very clear on this issue: “He that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

“Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away” (3 Ne. 11:29–30).

Anger is a yielding to Satan’s influence by surrendering our self-control. It is the thought-sin that leads to hostile feelings or behavior. It is the detonator of road rage on the freeway, flare-ups in the sports arena, and domestic violence in homes.

Unchecked, anger can quickly trigger an explosion of cruel words and other forms of emotional abuse that can scar a tender heart. It is “that which cometh out of the mouth,” the Savior said; “this defileth a man” (Matt. 15:11). David O. McKay said,

 

You have right to have a concern, but this is too complex for anyone here to give great advise in my opinion. He needs to see that he has a problem while you will need to do your best to help him with it. I agree that he will need to continue with counseling by your side. Best wishes.  

[Crypto]

It might help to see a doctor, in additional to everyone else's great spiritual and practical advice.

 

There are several medical conditions that can sometimes affect peoples mood and behavior, such as depression,  blood sugar levels(diabetes), and a whole slew of other fairly common conditions (hypertension, hormonal imbalances etc...).

Edited December 10, 2014 by Crypto

[Crypto]

Oh Is the counselor/therapist you are seeing a man or a woman?

 

Sometimes in therapy a man will feel like his voice isn't being heard, and will view therapy similarly to a nagging session (which might be related to the gender of the therapist). I would recommend also seeing a woman counselor/therapist for similar reasons. It might be beneficial to work with multiple people one of each gender in some circumstances.

 

Abusive behavior on part of either spouse is unacceptable. I feel for your situation and hope that you can find the hope for a bright future ahead of you.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Crypto

[priesthoodpower]

maybe both of you should try hypnotherapy. its helping my wife cope with me, i do see a change in her which helps me change too.

 

as much as we believe that our LDS church has all the answers we really dont.

 

for example, the word of wisdom is an LDS guideline from God to living a healthy lifestyle allowing for the "destorying angel" to pass us by. However taking zumba classes twice a week and yoga every morning as well as following the Richard Simmons foodmover program and Dr. Oz's healthy lifestyle tips I have reached optimal health levels.

 

another example is tithing, sometimes LDS members get stuck believing that all they have to do is pay tithing and the Lord will bless and prosper them financially....really! well a college education, business networking and good old fashion hard work will allow the blessings to happen.

 

You are having relationship problems you should seek out relationship experts not religious leaders in your church. I would guess that you and your husband are not living in accordance with the teaching of our church because if you did you would have less problems that would be more manageable within your own capacity. Your bishop and his wife are probably living a lifestyle more in alignment with what the church demands and therefore it seems like he has a perfect marriage, if you and your husband cant commit to live the same way that your bishop is living then he cant solve your problems because he will suggest that you do what he is doing...

 

- pray everynight

- fast once a month

- FHE once a week

- fullfill your church callings

- pay tithing

the list goes on.

 

good luck sis!

[Suzie]

I do not find your fears irrational at all. It seems to me that he might have some health related issues and if he is willing to work with a therapist, things might change but of course you also need to be willing. Having said that, if you are concerned about your safety, this is something you should take very seriously, no matter what a good, well-intentioned Bishop or counselor might think or ask of you. This is your marriage, your life, your safety and no one else but *you* have to live this life so better be ready to take some decisions on your own and do not let others make a decision for you.

 

Don't take me wrong, it doesn't mean you are not going to listen to any advise, etc. Of course you should but ultimately it is you who should decide what to do, please keep that in mind.

[Bini]

I do not find your fears irrational at all. It seems to me that he might have some health related issues and if he is willing to work with a therapist, things might change but of course you also need to be willing. Having said that, if you are concerned about your safety, this is something you should take very seriously, no matter what a good, well-intentioned Bishop or counselor might think or ask of you. This is your marriage, your life, your safety and no one else but *you* have to live this life so better be ready to take some decisions on your own and do not let others make a decision for you.

 

Don't take me wrong, it doesn't mean you are not going to listen to any advise, etc. Of course you should but ultimately it is you who should decide what to do, please keep that in mind.

Well said.

 

I have a friend (I posted about this not too long ago on here) whose marriage was down spiraling, and was stalled at a crossroads because she didn't know whether to listen to her own gut instinct, or heed to the opinion of others. Her then husband was not physically abusive. He'd never struck her or their children. But he had commit adultery and his words were often poisonous. This friend had sought out help from a couple resources, one within the Church, and one outside of it. Both kept telling her that these things can be overcome, and the marriage could be salvaged. She stuck it out for some time but nothing got better. I should add, they have a severely autistic child, who is hyper sensitive to just about everything. When daddy would start yelling at mummy, his tone and volume, would send her into panics and hysteria - it was completely unhealthy for this 5-year old child - even if mum could take it. Not only this, but her 3-year old son was being affected by daddy's temper tantrums too. In one instance, her son had cried angrily in the heat of daddy and mummy disagreeing, and said: "Don't shout at mommy!" I seriously cried myself when she told me this because her son and my daughter are very close. This little boy is such a lover and his heart is being torn into two right now.

 

So yeh, don't be too quick to pull the plug but don't be too slow to act, either. Your children become top priority above all else. Doesn't matter who seemingly is right or wrong. If your children are being hurt, get them outta there.

[Misshalfway]

It bugs me when I hear counselors calling their clients names, like "Bully".  Counselors aren't suppose to judge their clients.  Not that counselors aren't humans, but if that is happening in couples sessions, the counselor may have lost her objectivity and taken sides.  Which means your therapy is compromised.

 

I'm interested in what you said about your husband being threatened by your relationship with the children.  That feels like a really important issue to address.  Probably hard for you to consider because you'll be defensive about the way you mother or because you can't comprehend how something so normal could be so threatening to him.  I guess I'm wondering if or how this was addressed in therapy.  Was your husband assessed for any mental health issues like depression, personality disorders, trauma, bipolar?  For example, anger is sometimes a huge indicator for depression in men.  They don't present like women do with sadness and tears.  Was he diagnosed with anything? That coupled with a medical exam might really help.  If he's got something going on, it could really serve to inform your decisions and responses to him when he is being difficult.

 

But beyond that, I mean what can you do?  You can't control him.  You can't love him in changing his coping/attachment strategies if he doesn't want to change.  And I don't think it's wise to let others tell you what to do, especially others on a forum who know nothing.  

Best advise I can give is to trust yourself.  If you have a role in the disconnection, find courage to address it. If all you are doing is blaming and demanding, well, that's probably fuel to the fire.  But If you aren't safe and your insides are trying to warn you, you gotta listen to that.  You gotta trust your inner voice.  No one can know that stuff better than you.  

 

And frankly, I get that your bishopric was trying to be awesome.  But showing up on your doorstep, that was crossing the line.  Even if it was done with the best of intensions.  Just doesn't sound right to me.  It's like they did your husband's work for him.  They did your work for you.  And that does nothing but weaken people.