Is a Feeling of Peace Evidence?


rfburn
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As I have come to a point in life where I suspect, but have not yet confirmed in anyway, that I was very mistaken in leaving the LDS church (having my name removed from membership), I have had conversation with some family members (everyone on my dads side of the family is LDS), and with a couple of LDS friends.

During this time of again reading the BOM and D&C, I feel very peaceful.
Inner peace I suppose is the term.

One of my family members insists that this is evidence that the LDS church is the right church.

I've asked them to explain.
They cannot explain.

I am very, often to my detriment, very black and white in those things I believe.
That part of me is, in part, what caused me to leave the church.
I was sure of a particular something, I allowed no room for a gray area.

So, sometime the black and white thing doesn't work out so well.

Sorry, I diverted there for a moment.

Being black and white, the way I *feel* does not always mean much to me.
I think folks are often mislead by their feelings.

I can think of instance, for example, where I let me feelings turn me into a big jerk for a moment when in an argument or disagreement with my wife.

Anyway, I just wonder if any here would consider the feeling of peace as evidence that the LDS church is true.

I have a hard time with that idea.

But, there is no denial, that I do feel an increased sense of peace since I began again reading the BOM and D&C (reading seriously), and attending LDS church services again.

Where as when I was attending mainline Christian churches and reading only the bible, and Christian theology books (I do love theology), it seemed like I was always questioning and doubting something that is believed/taught by such churches.

I am positive that part of this sense in me is from the way services are organized within the LDS church.

There is order.
People take it seriously and act respectfully.

Such a thing is not as common as you might expect within mainline Christian churches.

But, I assume most of the sense comes from reading the BOM and D&C.

Still, I cannot grasp the idea of a feeling being actual evidence.

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Look at Galatians 5:22-23. Look at Doctrine and Covenants Sections 8, 9, and 50.  Read Alma, Chapter 32. Consider Parley P. Pratt's statement in Key to the Science of Theology:

 

The gift of the Holy Spirit adapts itself to all these organs or attributes. It quickens all the intellectual faculties, increases, enlarges, expands and purifies all the natural passions and affections; and adapts them, by the gift of wisdom, to their lawful use. It inspires, develops, cultivates and matures all the fine-toned sympathies, joys, tastes, kindred feelings and affections of our nature. It inspires virtue, kindness, goodness, tenderness, gentleness and charity. It develops beauty of person, form and features. It tends to health, vigor, animation and social feeling. It develops and invigorates all the faculties of the physical and intellectual man. It strengthens, invigorates, and gives tone to the nerves. In short, it is, as it were, marrow to the bone, joy to the heart, light to the eyes, music to the ears, and life to the whole being.

 

Consider Joseph Smith's observation during the King Follett discourse:

 

This is good doctrine. It tastes good. I can taste the principles of eternal life, and so can you. They are given to me by the revelations of Jesus Christ, and I know that when I tell you these words of eternal life as they are given to me, you taste them, and I know that you believe them. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also taste the spirit of eternal life. I know that it is good; and when I tell you of these things which were given me by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive them as sweet, and rejoice more and more.

 

In LDS teaching, the Holy Ghost isn't just about feeling--there are elements of "resonating", of enlightenment and intelligence and some sort of palpable spiritual growth and change.

 

I would also suggest that you consider the difference between "passion" and "feeling".  Think back to the times you had a "gut feeling" that turned out to be right, and see if you can distinguish it from the feelings or passions that have led you into error.

 

Best of luck!

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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I would say those feelings of peace when you are reading the Book of Mormon (or whatever) are evidence that what you are reading at the time (or doing or whatever) is being confirmed by the Spirit.  

 

I'm not prone to automatically extrapolate that to "I felt the Spirit while reading Alma 4:21, so the Mormon Church must be true."  But I would take it as additional evidence that something is true.  As those evidences build, you can decide if you believe all of it is true.

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Intellectually, feelings are not a solid form of evidence. However to deny our emotions and feelings is to deny a part of our very humanity. Emotions are largely our guide to morals, such as a near universal feeling that murdering people for "fun"(I really can't see murder as fun) is intrinsically wrong. Emotions act as a compass that point us towards the things we think intellectually, are motivated to do, and believe. As such I personally believe emotions have validity, not as solid evidence, nor as something that can't mislead, just as logic can also mislead, but as the compass that it seems to be.

On the spiritual side of things, the holy ghost is described as a still small voice. You Don't have to feel a burning bosom to be feeling the holy ghost. Actually I think the holy ghost speaks through quiet feelings of peace and comfort more so than other methods. I Don't think the spirit is exactly the same as my regular emotions, but I'd take into consideration where that compass of yours is pointing towards. (The holy ghost is like a compass to Isn't it? Maybe that's why we describe it like feelings or a prompting)

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A feeling could be the shadow of evidence.

 

A long time ago I read that Richard Dawkins claimed to live his life on the assumption that God doesn't exist.  I became the opposite, and I called myself an "anatheist," or one with an absence of disbelief in God. 

 

Later I pulled an anti-Dawkins and started living my life on the assumption that God does exist.  That simple step opened up spaces within me that God filled.  Jesus' words really were true for me: "If you had faith even as small as a mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, 'May you be uprooted and thrown into the sea,' and it would obey you!"  (Luke 17:6) 

 

Another vivid hyperbole from Jesus.  If it were literally true, I'd be using my powers to weed my garden really fast, believe me.  But the point to me is that faith is the root of all goodness.

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I consider feelings to be evidence. I believe in gut feelings. Humans are considered to have senses beyond the elementary five and I bbelieve gut instinct and intuition play into this. Can these systems be manipulated? Sure, but that doesn't rule out their existence.

They can be manipulated, as you note.

I've wondered in the past, in various things, if I, myself, do not sometimes manipulate my own feelings.

 

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They can be manipulated, as you note.

I've wondered in the past, in various things, if I, myself, do not sometimes manipulate my own feelings.

 

 

Like anything else, discernment takes conscious learning...

 

The way one discerns truth is very different from person to person.  The same process that you go through to determine if 1+1 is really equal to 2 is the same process to figuring the truth of everything else including religion.  The first step is to trust the teacher that taught you 1+1 is 2 and the next step is to apply that learning to something to see if it really works.  Most people can arrive at the truth by following their teacher's methods.  But a lot of people (my son is a perfect example) can't... they are "wired differently".  My son does math by gut feel.  I kid you not.  He reads a word problem and he will tell you what the answer is (which is correct) but he can't explain to you how he arrived at that answer.  It's been bugging me for ages because I am a very logical thinker - I have specific steps that are repeatable to arrive at the answer... I can't tutor my son because we end up fighting.

 

Anyway... he approaches his testimony the same way - by gut feel.  Whereas I approach my testimony my way - by logical thinking.  If it doesn't make logical sense to me, I don't get that "peace".

 

Throughout the years, I have learned that everytime I get that "clarity of thought", I have arrived at a certain nugget of truth.  That "clarity" is what I recognize as the spirit... my son has a different experience.  He is only 11 years old but he has explained to me that he "feels" the spirit.  He can't explain to me how he feels it... he just learned to trust that feeling...

 

So... let me explain this clarity of thought... I would be sitting down in the middle of a party and I would look at my family and my brain would clear - it's like the entire world stops and everything I see with my eyes is bright and focused and sound gets muted and movements seem to be frozen... and my brain would register that this is exactly where I need to be at this specific time at this specific moment... and whatever was in my brain at that time would be a testimony of truth... at the time I was looking at my family my brain wondered if we are eternal... and it clicked that we are...

 

Now this clarity doesn't just happen out of the blue.  Usually, this is something that I've been pondering and pondering for a long time and something that I've researched and logically placed.  Like, I can logically understand the Catholic position of families and I can just as logically understand the LDS position of families - two different things... but it is in one of those "clarity of thought" moments that I get that firm understanding of how the LDS position is true.

 

I don't know if I explained it adequately.  It's a very very difficult thing to explain.  Nobody can really tell you how to discern the Spirit.  You have to experience it and learn... line upon line, precept upon precept... how to recognize it within you.

Edited by anatess
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Whereas I approach my testimony my way - by logical thinking.  If it doesn't make logical sense to me, I don't get that "peace".

_______

 

Throughout the years, I have learned that everytime I get that "clarity of thought", I have arrived at a certain nugget of truth.  That "clarity" is what I recognize as the spirit.

________

 

 

I don't know if I explained it adequately.  It's a very very difficult thing to explain.  Nobody can really tell you how to discern the Spirit.  You have to experience it and learn... line upon line, precept upon precept... how to recognize it within you.

I can very much relate.

I need logic.

If I cannot find it, I may well become a tad confused and misdirected for a time.

I seek clarity constantly, in almost everything.

It is not always found though.

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I can very much relate.

I need logic.

If I cannot find it, I may well become a tad confused and misdirected for a time.

I seek clarity constantly, in almost everything.

It is not always found though.

 

Oh yes.  Definitely.  I was devout Catholic for most my life... I have a lot of "clarity" incidences all that time.  So there are nuggets that are immovable for me as I have firm testimony of them.  So, studying LDS... some of them grate on those immovable nuggets - the Trinity for example.  But, what I learned is not that my "clarity" was wrong.  Actually, it still held true.  It just got expanded on... and the expansion unlocked other nuggets.  (I've explained the Trinity - Godhead journey for me somewhere in lds.net).  If it would have contradicted those nuggets, I would reject LDS.

 

So, out of the whole body of truth, I'd be surprised if I got testimonies of 10% of them... I mean, there are unrevealed truths too, ya know.  So, let's say 90% I don't have clarity.  But, none of those I'm unclear about hurts the 10% that I do know for sure.

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rfburn,

Let me ask you a few questions if I may... (Please don't feel like you have to answer these questions with a written response.  If you're more comfortable keeping the answers private, that's fine.  But please consider the questions... Perhaps write the answers just for yourself.   :) )

 

Some questions about feelings:

 

Who is your favorite person in this world?  

 

Do you love them?

 

Are you sure?

 

How do you know?

 

Can you trust those feelings?

 

Are they evidence of anything?  Or are they just brain chemistry at work?  Something else?

 

If you do love them, would you love them no matter what?  

 

If so, why?

 

 

Some questions about intellect:

 

Who is your favorite person in the world?

 

Why? (What are the "logical" reasons why?)

 

How do you know they're your favorite person?

 

Are you sure?

 

Can you trust your reasoning?

 

What if they turned out to be a different person than you originally thought..?

 

Would they still be your favorite person?  

 

If so, why?  If not, why not?

 

 

 

---

 

 

My conclusion from such questions is there's an element of faith inherent in EVERYthing...  There is value in both intellect and emotion.  We need both.. But most importantly ----> we need AGENCY.  At some point we decide what we're going to believe and hold on to... We may not know everything yet... but we can get to the point where we know enough to make a decision.

 

 

2 more final questions:

 

WHY,,, do you choose what you choose?

 

What do you hope to learn or receive by your choice?

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theSQUIDSTER.
I'll think on those things.

I, by nature I suppose, compartmentalize.
Those things you mention, for the most part, seem more tangible.

I can see a person, poke them in the eye, etc...

Visually, I've not seen God or those things about Him.

I long ago made the *choice* to believe in God, based upon the bible and, when I was younger based upon the BOM.
I later came to reject the BOM (currently reevaluating that rejection), but I never rejected the idea of God.

So far as memory serves, I never embraced the idea of God because I felt as though He existed.
I accepted that He exists based upon, what I believed (and continue to believe) was logical.
I accepted the bible and BOM in my youth because I believed the logic within both demonstrated God exists, and that God is holy.

That is not to say that no faith was required or leaned upon.
But, the bible and BOM made sense to me.

I honestly do not recall ever being lead by a feeling in the belief that God exist and is holy.

I have had feelings/emotions in the sense of feeling very blessed by God, and feeling grateful that He is holy.

So, there is some separation there.

Accepting a belief system/worldview based upon feeling, or using a feeling as evidence, as my cousin suggested to me, is something different. Something I cannot exactly wrap myself around and understand very well.

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What comes to mind for me is one of my favorite verses in the Book of Mormon:

 

 

 

  • Moroni 7:16

    16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

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rfburn,

Thanks for your candor and willingness to share.  Each person's journey to discover truth and light is a very personal one and it sounds to me like you are well on your way to returning to the arms of the Lord.  It is a struggle though and what may be very easy for one person to comprehend can be very challenging for another... and visa versa. 

 

If I'm hearing you correctly it sounds like your biggest struggle is with discernment.  I hear you saying that you're feeling good feelings but you're not sure whether you're generating them somehow by yourself or if they are coming from God.  Does God really exist?  Or did we as humans just create him?  .. Is he just a myth we created to describe what's actually taking place in our mind?  Our does he EXIST.. independent of our perceptions and our thoughts?  Is he really who the prophets said and say that he is?  Or does he just "exist" because some of us want so much to believe that he does?  Because everything we experience is filtered through our individual and limited perceptions.. can we really know or be sure of anything?  What is real ?  Are we who believe just happily deluded?  Blissfully ignorant of the harsh truth?

 

A cynical and vacillating politico named Pontius Pilate asked Jesus, "What is truth?"  It didn't matter that the perfect embodiment of Truth was standing before Pilate.  Pilate couldn't see it.  Pilate was too wrapped-up in his own "reality" to see and recognize the Savior... even though he sensed there was something unusual about Jesus... his philosophy was a worldly one:  I'm a sophisticated, educated, man of importance .. and as such I know that there is really no such thing as absolute Truth.  It's all relative... in the eye of the beholder...

 

How ironic... he couldn't see what was right in front of him.

 

If we follow worldly prestige and wisdom and eloquent philosophical arguments it doesn't matter if the truth is staring us in the face.  Like Pilate, we just won't see it.  

 

I don't sense this about you though...  I think you're asking a more sincere "What is truth?" question.  

 

Keep doing what you're doing.  As you read the scriptures and attend meetings you're already beginning to see things again that perhaps you had forgotten for a time.  If you continue on that path you will begin to feel your faith and your mind expanding.  It really sounds to me like it is already happening.  Very often, revelation can be a very subtle thing. Sometimes it can be so subtle that we don't even realize it's happening. Here is a great talk by Elder Bednar about that.

 

Please consider that what you are experiencing is like a sunrise.  You're not quite sure it's the sun rising or maybe you're just seeing a glow on the horizon from something else...  But as you continue, you will feel your confidence grow and grow.  If you don't retreat, then you will, at some time in the future, know without a doubt that the sun has risen... that it was indeed the sun rising all along.  But you have to continue to walk toward that light.

 

Pray for understanding.  Have you ever actually asked God if He is really there?  If you have then continue to ask.  He is there!  He knows you and loves you!  You are already feeling him drawing near to you because you're making the effort to draw near to him.  Unlike the world, He will NOT force you..  He wants you to decide.  When you are ready He will make things known to you that you didn't know before.

 

Dear brother, may the Lord bless you in your sincere efforts.  I believe you are coming out of the darkness... This is what you are feeling.  It may take some time... but it's well worth it!   :)

Edited by theSQUIDSTER
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I feel that emotions are a powerful and critical part of our ability to recognize truth.  In fact, I feel that proper discernment of spiritual promptings is a superior form of learning than anything else, and emotions are a key facet to spiritual communication.

 

Think about how important it is to know if God lives or not. If the Book of Mormon is true or not.  These are considerations of life and death importance.

 

Today we love to talk about history, archaeology, anthropology, all kinds of -ologies and discuss them as evidence for or against, oh the Book of Mormon for example.  This is interesting and I love learning about this kind of thing, but I also recognize that in 1830, when the Book of Mormon was published, there was the same necessity to learn that it is true then that there is today.  In 1830, however, there was not the amount of information in regards to all the history and -ologies.  We today are lacking much information compared to what people 100 years from now will know, but our necessity to know the truth is the same.  1830's LDS investigators, ancient Israelites, 2nd century Christians, and everyone anywhere at any time needs a reliable tool to know what is true that does not rely on Man's learning and understanding.  We can't afford to wait until we "have all the facts (how could you know what you don't know?)" before we make a decision because right now, today, is the time for men to prepare to meet God.

 

Emotions are universal to human beings.  They do not rely on technology. They are not dependent on language.  They are in us, and with a little training people can learn to be in control of them.  To act, rather than be acted upon.  People do often say that emotions can be manipulated, but the emotions that you feel aren't lies.  The dishonesty is in whomever created the false environment to coax an emotion.  God teaches us to bridle our passions, and to be in control of our emotions.  This way they become an integral part of how He communicates with us. 

 

I truly believe that the apparent gulf between logical thinking and emotional understanding is entirely man-made and false.  Like one is more useful than the other, or that they are foreign concepts to one another.  God, knowing all things, is as logical and scientific a man as you could ever encounter.  Yet He chooses to communicate to us, His children, using a combination of reason and emotion.  Don't you believe that God would use the best possible means of teaching critical truths He wants us to know that is available?

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what comes to mind for me is this: 

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
(Proverbs 14:12, repeated in 16:25)

haven't all of you at some time been caught in sin or error, and while in the midst of it been content?
if emotion alone were sound evidence, i don't believe there is any religion or doctrine or idea that has not been supported by it, and we all certainly know that truth is separated from apostasy. 

where Eowyn quoted Moroni - 

 

for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ;  wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.


this "perfect knowledge" is to be tested in whether it glorifies and draws toward Christ, not whether it "feels peaceful" or otherwise -- for is it not the case that to the righteous and faithful, the word of Truth is a comfort, but to the wicked, the Truth is fearsome? 

human feelings are not trustworthy. if they were, what could you say to anyone who doubts the gospel you trust? 

a familiar scripture concerning peace presupposes an emotion that isn't to be trusted, namely anxiety: 


Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
(Philippians 4:6-7)


divine peace indeed guards the heart, but i see that it is attained with prayer, supplication and thanksgiving, being sought of God rather than from ourselves or other men.

many feel "at peace" with false doctrine until a prophet or teacher is given to correct them - this is itself the doctrine of revelation, is it not? 


 

Nevertheless, the Lord God showeth us our weakness that we may know that it is by his grace, and his great condescensions unto the children of men, that we have power to do these things.
Behold, great and marvelous are the works of the Lord. Howunsearchable are the depths of the mysteries of him; and it is impossible that man should find out all his ways. And no man knoweth of his ways save it be revealed unto him

(Jacob 4:7-8) 

 


he cannot say "our weaknesses" are shown to us if we have not any weaknesses, and if we have weaknesses, it ought not be ourselves or any other like us that we trust -- but God alone, in whom no weakness is found, being perfect (Matthew 5:48, 3 Nephi 12:48).

 

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human feelings are not trustworthy. 

That is my general thought.

Though I think I often over analyze a feeling.

Feelings of family, friends, in my political activities, etc... I most often trust those kind of feelings right away.

Feelings on matters of God, I am far more cautious.

Perhaps, overly cautious at times.

Edited by rfburn
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