God made me this way!


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I get that we are subject to sinful passions.  It is a little too cut and dry to say that the body is evil, and the spirit is righteous.  Traveler seems to agree, pointing to the fall of Satan, while in the heavenly realm.  When I am tempted in my heart and mind, is that my body or my spirit?  When I consider "cutting corners" to save time, hassle, money, etc., is this my body or my spirit?

The Fall puts us to tremendous and on-going struggle.  On the other hand, the potential rewards are great.

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When a sinner insists that God made him/her to sin that one is speaking from something other than recognition and repentence.  Is the person accusing God?  Perhaps blaming the church?  Certainly there is the implication that their sin is NOT sin.  So yes, the answer is that God made them better than that.  That the original creation was not corrupt, and that they way we are to live is found in the scriptures.  To answer a defensiveness of sin, or an accusation against God/church with mild humor (no sarcasm--I mean what I said) is to defuse, not inflame.

 

From those I've spoken to, this would enflame.  I've found that the only time I really listen to anyone about what they think I should be doing is when I feel like they really understand my personal situation.  If they don't, I see them as sticking their nose where it does not belong.  Coming at them with "Read your Bible!  God doesn't mean for anyone to be gay!" smacks of pride and a lack of understanding of what it's like to be in their shoes.  So, the best way to get them to actually repent, as opposed to stroking our own religious ego, is to be an actual compassionate friend to first tries to understand, then tries to counsel.

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God doesn't want us to lie.  Are liars offended? 

God does not want us to commit adultery.  Are adulterers offended? 

God does not want us to steal.  Are thieves offended?

God does not want us to worship other gods.  Are idolaters offended?

God does not want us to sin.  Are all of us offended (Rom 3:23--all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God)/

 

Yes, we should not speak with condescension.  And, of course, we influence mostly by example, and then speak life into people mainly through invitation.  I'm not going up to strangers, banging Leviticus over their heads, telling them to turn straight or burn.

 

On the other hand, why do some sins cause us to be so very cautious, while others receive overt and blunt condemnation?  The LBGT is positioning itself as extremely wounded and offended at Christianity.  Our natural inclination is to mitigate that, and prove them wrong.  We're not mean, we're not intentionally ugly, etc.

 

So be a friend first.  Show love first.  However, when push comes to shove, and you know you can no longer avoid the issue, will we speak the truth, even if it costs us that friendship?  Good friends of mine used to be Wiccan (the guy was, the gal was just away from God).  When they converted to a rigorous Christian practice some of their Wiccan friends continued the relationship.  Others said that since they had become bigots (opposed to gay marriage) they could no longer associate with them.

 

What's instructive is that this couple were not going around preaching about how bad gay marriage was.  They got cornered, and more or less asked, "Now that you are Christians are you opposed to gay marriage?"

 

Love (charity)?  Kindness?  Gentleness?  Patience? -- OF COURSE!!!  These are fruits of the Holy Ghost.  Nevertheless, when the crucial moment comes, will we or will we not declare, "Thus saieth the Lord...?"

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God doesn't want us to lie.  Are liars offended? 

God does not want us to commit adultery.  Are adulterers offended? 

God does not want us to steal.  Are thieves offended?

God does not want us to worship other gods.  Are idolaters offended?

God does not want us to sin.  Are all of us offended (Rom 3:23--all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God)/

 

Yes, we should not speak with condescension.  And, of course, we influence mostly by example, and then speak life into people mainly through invitation.  I'm not going up to strangers, banging Leviticus over their heads, telling them to turn straight or burn.

 

On the other hand, why do some sins cause us to be so very cautious, while others receive overt and blunt condemnation?  The LBGT is positioning itself as extremely wounded and offended at Christianity.  Our natural inclination is to mitigate that, and prove them wrong.  We're not mean, we're not intentionally ugly, etc.

 

So be a friend first.  Show love first.  However, when push comes to shove, and you know you can no longer avoid the issue, will we speak the truth, even if it costs us that friendship?  Good friends of mine used to be Wiccan (the guy was, the gal was just away from God).  When they converted to a rigorous Christian practice some of their Wiccan friends continued the relationship.  Others said that since they had become bigots (opposed to gay marriage) they could no longer associate with them.

 

What's instructive is that this couple were not going around preaching about how bad gay marriage was.  They got cornered, and more or less asked, "Now that you are Christians are you opposed to gay marriage?"

 

Love (charity)?  Kindness?  Gentleness?  Patience? -- OF COURSE!!!  These are fruits of the Holy Ghost.  Nevertheless, when the crucial moment comes, will we or will we not declare, "Thus saieth the Lord...?"

 

I have a gay buddy and he and I have had this conversation.  I was honest.  I told him I think homosexuality is against the laws of God, but that it doesn't change our relationship.  I still love him.  I'm still his friend.  I listened, then spoke, and when I spoke, I didn't ever try to beat him over the head with life's manual, nor did I tell him God didn't intend for him to be this way because his body had strayed from factory settings (which, we have no idea if that's true or not).  I was honest, straightforward and loving.  Are there bigots in all communities?  Absolutely; like the Wiccans who will stop being your friends if you convert to Christianity, and you aren't ever going to get those to listen to you.  But, you will get some to listen to you through kindness, whereas, a very small percentage (if any at all) are going to listen to condescension.

The response you posted would come off as condescending to my buddy and others I've spoken to, which is why I got involved in this thread in the first place.  Honest and kind should be the watchwords when we have these conversations.  From the sounds of it, I think you'd agree.

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it is a very hard and touchy subject. Im glad God is the judge and has the last word in everything.

 

 

I think it is our duty as human beings to maintain a society based on christian values but it is not our duty to tell a sinner (gay person) that he/she is a sinner or evil. But how do you have the one and not the other?

 

I have a seven year old daughter that has shown some weird behavior from ever since she was a baby, lets just say that if she went off to college and came home with a girlfriend I wouldnt be surprised. I would never now nor then say or show any thing toward her but love. There is just too much gays that commit suicide because of opposition from their familys and friends.

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The scriptures disagree with you.

not these two scriptures

 

John 8:7 ..."He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

 

Matthew 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

 

 

What im saying is that as a society we need to stand up for what is right, i will gladly march (an act of condemning) down capital street in support of passing an anti-gay marriage laws, but I will not condemn a gay child in my own home (lecture in love about gay being a sin yes, condemn no).

Edited by priesthoodpower
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not these two scriptures

 

John 8:7 ..."He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

 

Matthew 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

 

 

What im saying is that as a society we need to stand up for what is right, i will gladly march (an act of condemning) down capital street in support of passing an anti-gay marriage laws, but I will not condemn a gay child in my own home.

 

thoughts?

 

I agree with you.  Your child will likely know you don't entirely approve of homosexuality (assuming she comes home with a gf, and you're raising her in the church), which means she already knows.  Why beat a dead horse, as it were?

There are places in the scriptures that I'm sure Vort will point out to you where it is stated in the scriptures that we need to call people to repentance.  I would assume a daughter (or any other gay person who has grown up in the church) already has the Holy Ghost calling them to repentance.  I would say our job is to be loving enough to keep them close to the church, so if they decide to listen, they know they have people there to help them, who helped them through everything else.

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I'm not sure anyone--certainly no one on this string--is promoting condemnation.  Further, even "being gay" is not a sin.  It is a state of constant temptation.  The sin is in breaking the Law of Chastity, whether by action or by willful lust.  The sad, sorry truth is that if you "lecture in love" any adult about such sinfulness, and they will not catch the nuance between that and condemnation.

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I'm not sure anyone--certainly no one on this string--is promoting condemnation.  Further, even "being gay" is not a sin.  It is a state of constant temptation.  The sin is in breaking the Law of Chastity, whether by action or by willful lust.  The sad, sorry truth is that if you "lecture in love" any adult about such sinfulness, and they will not catch the nuance between that and condemnation.

 

It think the step that is too often missed is the "looking to understand" before the "lecturing in love."  I would argue that without the first step, the offended kind of has a right to be.

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the world says "i was born this way" 

but Christ says "you must be born again"

& that is a spiritual rebirth (see John ch. 3) 

i was born with a spirit that loves sin. 

the Spirit in me now is not innate to my humanity - it is the gift of God. 

it is as He said: 

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you;

I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

(Ezekiel 36:26) 

 

the heart i have that lives, and the Spirit i have that gives life, these are new things, the old being removed from me by the Father's own hand! 

i thank God for His mercy on me! i was alienated from Him and i was His enemy, and He took pity on me in His grace! 

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

(Colossians 1:21) 

who is worthy of praise but God alone?! 

 

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It think the step that is too often missed is the "looking to understand" before the "lecturing in love."

 

Why? Why is looking to understand necessary as a prerequisite for speaking truth? Seems like there's a whole lot of scriptural prophetic examples where their preaching repentance came without any looking to understand. Were the prophets all wrong? 

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I believe the error of our argument is the assumption that our spirit is not also subject to the fall.  I would point out that spirits have a proclivity to sin - even in a perfect spiritual state - which is why and how Lucifer fell and drew with him a one third part of the most spiritually advanced and enlightened society ever assembled (that we know about).  Note that this spiritually advanced society had not even a "smidgeon" of physical temptation or draw.   To completely ignore spiritual temptations to sin is to ignore perhaps to the most difficult dangers on the path of eternal life.

The discussion is about "God made me this way".   One of the arguements, I'm sure, by those that wanted to do things a different way up in the war in Heaven had to do with the fact that we were pure to begin with, 'why risk becoming impure by sending us to this world?'  That was a strong case against coming here, that is in part why a third of the host didn't want to come here and take that risk.  If there was nothing to lose there would be no Fall, it would have been just a move forward.

 

Obviously, we believe that the step from pre-mortal life to this one was a step downward but forward and onward.  I suppose many people believe we didn't fall that far.  I believe we fell very far, almost unrecognizably so. Again, this is, in part, why Moses proclaimed that man is nothing.   I think if one ponders these verses carefully one sees the comparison Moses is making to those things that are spiritual vs those things that are natural (physical); "

 And the presence of God withdrew from Moses, that his glory was not upon Moses; and Moses was left unto himself. And as he was left unto himself, he fell unto the earth.

 10 And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed.

 11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him."

 

During this life we reveal our underlying spiritual nature but we come to this life with a spiritual clean slate.  The body, on the other hand, starts to cry from day one for hunger and thirst, for carnal drives.  From day one it feels the pains of hunger, it strives for air, it wants to be held and physically comforted.  Carnal passions and drives start from day number one of life. 

 

However, the spirit is pure from day numbner one of mortal life such that infants do not need baptism.  As is warned in Moroni 8, anyone who suggests spirits need baptism from some intrinsic evil they carry is wrong!  Even if someone "supposes" that they carry evil with them or are born with evil in them is "in the bonds of inequity" according to Mormon.  I would be careful about suggesting or even supposing such a thing, Moroni 8; " 8 ...wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin;...

 12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

 13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.

 14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell."

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All who are praiseworthy. A tautology, but true nonetheless.

but is there any good that does not come from God? 

Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God -- Moroni 7:12

For I say unto you that whatsoever is good cometh from God -- Alma 5:40

For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord -- Mosiah 3:19

And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are --- 2 Nephi 2:14

when i quoted only the Bible, saying the same thing, my post was hidden -- but see how that your own scriptures say the same thing? 

if anyone is good, i will priase God continually for it!! 

because i know who is the origin of goodness :) 

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Friends and acquaintances will walk with their same-sex attracted loved ones quite closely.  When the subject is broached--especially if religious faith is allowed to enter the conversation--then the true strength of the relationship will be tested.  Many factors go into how the itneraction plays out.  We do our best to love, to speak truth, to be understanding.  We trust that the Holy Ghost will bathe those situations.  Free will, or agency, ultimately tips the balance.

 

Prophets, or even bishops/pastors/priests/teachers, on the other hand, are expected to communicate God's message.  Empathy is always good, but when the Lord saieth, we are called to repeat, "Thus saieth the Lord..." 

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Why? Why is looking to understand necessary as a prerequisite for speaking truth? Seems like there's a whole lot of scriptural prophetic examples where their preaching repentance came without any looking to understand. Were the prophets all wrong? 

 

Because we aren't Calvinists.  Look into why the Westboro Baptist Church does what it does.

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Friends and acquaintances will walk with their same-sex attracted loved ones quite closely.  When the subject is broached--especially if religious faith is allowed to enter the conversation--then the true strength of the relationship will be tested.  Many factors go into how the itneraction plays out.  We do our best to love, to speak truth, to be understanding.  We trust that the Holy Ghost will bathe those situations.  Free will, or agency, ultimately tips the balance.

 

Prophets, or even bishops/pastors/priests/teachers, on the other hand, are expected to communicate God's message.  Empathy is always good, but when the Lord saieth, we are called to repeat, "Thus saieth the Lord..." 

 

Yes, yes, if the Spirit so moveth.  But we should be cautious not to lie about "The Spirit" like the girl on Glee who lies about her "aspergers" in order to be a jerk without repercussions (from outside, or from within).

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Westboro Baptist is hardly representative of Calvinists.  I looked around their website a few years ago.  The simple version of their theology is that God hates sinners.  He loves those who love and obey him, and hates all others.  That is the belief that drives them.

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Westboro Baptist is hardly representative of Calvinists.  I looked around their website a few years ago.  The simple version of their theology is that God hates sinners.  He loves those who love and obey him, and hates all others.  That is the belief that drives them.

Westboro Baptist, being composed almost solely of one family, is hardly representative of anyone besides themselves.

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All who are praiseworthy. A tautology, but true nonetheless.

who is praiseworthy but the one who gives all things that are worthy of praise? 

For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? 

(1 Corinthians 4:7) 

anything that makes one more praiseworthy than God is received from God -- for this i will yet praise God; who is great like He is? 

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