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prisonchaplain

God made me this way!

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The point:  The WBC is Calvinist.  Meaning they believe those who will be 'saved' have already been chosen no matter what. How does this relate?  When people ask what they believe they are gaining from their 'preaching', they say they were commanded to do it.  I watched several documentaries about them and they finally gave an answer that made sense:  they said they don't believe their preaching really has any affect, only that they've been told in the Bible to preach.  So, they have fun with it, because, in their minds, it really doesn't matter if they offend anyone, or if anyone even listens, because they believe God has already chosen who is going to 'make it'.

We, on the other hand, are not Calvinists.  How we approach something does, in fact, matter (according to our belief system) because it does, in fact, matter if people listen to us.  We don't believe God has already chosen, so we want people to actually listen and change.

So, in answer to TFP's original, "Why? Why is looking to understand necessary as a prerequisite for speaking truth?" we, unlike the WBC, are not Calvinists.  Looking to understand first will make them listening much more likely.  If we were Calvinists, then it wouldn't matter.  We too could just badger people, believing we were fulfilling what God told us to do.  

In the case of Prophets in scripture who, it seems, didn't first look to understand:  They are either speaking to a great many people (which means they really just generally need to know what people generally need), are speaking to people who they know (through the Spirit, or other means) aren't going to listen even if they are understood, or, hey, sometimes Prophets make mistakes, some of the instances might be one of these times.

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To clarify my question paulsifer...I'm asking why "always". Not just why. I understand perfectly well why. I'm questioning the "always" part of it.

 

Oh, it's not 'always' if your giving a talk in sacrament meeting, or speaking to some other large crowd.  And I wouldn't go so far as to say it's 'always' in one-on-one settings, but it is a great majority of the time.  And the reason why that is:  Because, in our theology, it will ultimately matter how we are received, at least for the person doing the receiving, so we should, nearly always, try to understand first, so we are  received better, so the person might actually change, as opposed to walking away with one more experience to support the 'Christians are nothing but judgmental, closed-minded, bigots.'  Which, I think we can all agree isn't helpful.

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Oh, it's not 'always' if your giving a talk in sacrament meeting, or speaking to some other large crowd.  And I wouldn't go so far as to say it's 'always' in one-on-one settings, but it is a great majority of the time.  And the reason why that is:  Because, in our theology, it will ultimately matter how we are received, at least for the person doing the receiving, so we should, nearly always, try to understand first, so we are  received better, so the person might actually change, as opposed to walking away with one more experience to support the 'Christians are nothing but judgmental, closed-minded, bigots.'  Which, I think we can all agree isn't helpful.

 

Can you all see that awesome run-on sentence?  Man, that's nice.

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I get that we are subject to sinful passions.  It is a little too cut and dry to say that the body is evil, and the spirit is righteous.  Traveler seems to agree, pointing to the fall of Satan, while in the heavenly realm.  When I am tempted in my heart and mind, is that my body or my spirit?  When I consider "cutting corners" to save time, hassle, money, etc., is this my body or my spirit?

The Fall puts us to tremendous and on-going struggle.  On the other hand, the potential rewards are great.

In the beginning it is cut and dried.  And that is the question that was put out, 'God made me this way'.  After we have some time on this Earth, yes our spirits can take on the features of carnality and then those things are initiated by the spirit.  But as far as being born that way spiritually - no, we were not.

 

The inheritance we are born with in this life is ours to lose.  We start out with full potential, full inheritance.  Over time we can lose it.  This is why infants who die before the age of accountabilty have lost nothing, they receive a full inheritance.  They did not start out with original sin or in a negative position.

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I've met Calvinists who are thoughtful, missionary-minded, and who realize that even if God chooses who will be redeemed (their belief, not mine), they are still responsible to be responsible.  That is, they represent Christ.  There is none of the cavalier, "I might as well have fun with this, since it doesn't really matter" attitude--none in any I've met.

 

Vort is right.  WBC is a one-family religious sect that writes and behaves with a tabloid, cartoonish theology.  The write prolifically, but with very little depth, imho.  Objectively, they represent only themselves. 

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who is praiseworthy but the one who gives all things that are worthy of praise?

Anyone who does ONE thing worthy of praise. That's pretty much the meaning of "praiseworthy".

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I honestly don't think God made anybody.  Sure, the spirit maybe but here on earth? Pretty much anybody can make a baby with parts they have around the house. Coming from the presence of God, contents may have shifted and product is sold by weight not by volume. We are pretty much dumped here and have to figure it out.  I also believe we were bought on credit, never paid for, and are being repossessed one by one.

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I've met Calvinists who are thoughtful, missionary-minded, and who realize that even if God chooses who will be redeemed (their belief, not mine), they are still responsible to be responsible.  That is, they represent Christ.  There is none of the cavalier, "I might as well have fun with this, since it doesn't really matter" attitude--none in any I've met.

 

Vort is right.  WBC is a one-family religious sect that writes and behaves with a tabloid, cartoonish theology.  The write prolifically, but with very little depth, imho.  Objectively, they represent only themselves. 

 

Oh, I didn't mean to say all Calvinists were rude like the WBC, just saying their theology allows for that.  Those who are kind are kind because they want to be.  From what I've seen, the WBC family would love rattling people's cages whether they subscribed to Calvinism or not.

Edited by paulsifer42

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Guest intra

I honestly don't think God made anybody.  Sure, the spirit maybe but here on earth? 

you honestly don't believe the scriptures? 

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him

(Colossians 1:16) 

how is it you can call yourself "LDS" and deny these things? 

don't like the Bible? your book says the same thing -- 

Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth notcomprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.

(Mosiah 4:9) 

 

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Guest intra

I also believe we were bought on credit, never paid for, and are being repossessed one by one.

do you not understand the scriptures, or do you just not know them at all? 

Ye are bought with a price

(1 Corinthians 7:23) 

 

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Perhaps the best answer to those who choose to live in sin, and loudly proclaim, "God made me this way!" is to ask, "Which is more important to ask, how you were made or WHO made you?" If the latter, then instead of insisting that our current status is optimal, maybe we should look to the Maker's "original factory settings?" Those can be found in The Instructions. And yes--they are included.

The Doctrine and Covenants tells us in revelation that we are independent in the sphere in which we are placed to act for ourselves as well as that we are "intelligent or light and truth".  In scientific terms we consider intelligent life as the ability of a life form to learn and modify its behavior.

 

In short; the simple truth is that those that do not believe that they are capable of becoming enlightened and through enlightenment modify their behavior are by religious standards “damned” to everlasting misery and by scientific terms, “unintelligent” – by any other definition or in common terms – extremely stupid and dumb.  I believe the common term is dumber than rocks.

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