Cops are people too


prisonchaplain
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No police?

 

Welcome to the Philippines.

 

Ohh... yes, there is police, but they're largely ineffective.  What's the speed limit?  Who knows... there's one but nobody cares about it because there's nobody to impose it.  So, we have buses running over children on bicycles... why are the bicycles on the path of the buses?  Because, nobody says they can't - even if there is a law about it.  You can go to YouTube and see the "crazy Filipino drivers".

 

And that's just cars... we can go on to home invasions and personal protection next... So, my brother was standing around outside the church when this idiot punched him out of the blue and tried to cut him with a knife... for no other reason than to cause trouble.  Why did he do it in wide-open public square?  Because he can.  In normal circumstances, this punk would have just gone on his business to wreck havoc somewhere else... Unfortunately, he doesn't know that my brother is a member of the biggest family in town... so, my uncles found him and blew out his kneecaps as a reminder to him and his "gang" to stay clear of the town.  Well, a few months later, the gang came back to town and threw rocks at a town dance hitting my aunt on the temple... why?  Because they can!  Unfortunately, they picked the wrong town... I'm fairly certain that punk ended up in the bottom of the ocean.

 

I mean, if that's how you want to enforce American law, that's fine and good.  It sure works in the Philippines - criminals tend to be more careful about messing with strong families... but in the US where families are nuclear... dunno how you envision getting people to respect any of your laws...

Many years ago while I was working for Boeing I was sent consulting with a company on Long Island.  While there I noticed that vending machines were either beat up badly or in pristine condition.  Often the two types of vending machines were next to each other.  I asked around and was told that the pristine vending machines belonged to the mafia.  The story was the mafia got involved in vending machines for money laundering.  When their machines were hit by neighborhood gangs the mafia sent thugs into the neighborhoods that would pick up a youth in random - they would take a hammer and smash an knuckle and ask who damaged their machine.  If the kid did not know they would smash another knuckle and ask the kid who would know.  They did this til the found the kid responsible for the damage.   They then got that kid and told him they were the ones that banged up everyone's knuckles to find them.  They then said they were not going to do anything to them unless another one of their machines got hit - then they would make the kid they were talking to disappear (be killed).  The story is that the kid and his friends make sure the mafia machines are never damaged.

Edited by Traveler
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So this last week, I watched 3 separate occasions where a police car's roof lights came on so it could commit an illegal traffic violation.  The first time, it was to run a red light.  (Yes, the lights went off after he was safely through the intersection.)   The second one was to turn right at a red light from the left lane.  

 

I'm wondering if this is another one of those things we're supposed to just put up with 'cause it makes life for our "heroes" easier.

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Those of us who know police, or other law enforcement, keep cringing at the very very few bad acts/apples who are being held up as typical.  We believe our colleagues/friends are under-recognized, underpaid, and work in uber-difficult circumstances.

 

Those of us who know African-Americans keep cringing at the failure of so many to recognize how differently young black men are treated--how unfairly--how dangerously.

 

So...we keep saying it louder.  And, when the other side talks, we say, "Yah, yah, yah...but..."  We drown out what they are saying, figuring we've heard it already, and what they are calling common place is really an abberration.

 

So we keep talking past each other, and the politicians don't care.  The parties figure that the conflict gins up anger, and generates support and donations for them.

 

I'm too young to be this cynical!

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So this last week, I watched 3 separate occasions where a police car's roof lights came on so it could commit an illegal traffic violation.  The first time, it was to run a red light.  (Yes, the lights went off after he was safely through the intersection.)   The second one was to turn right at a red light from the left lane.  

 

I'm wondering if this is another one of those things we're supposed to just put up with 'cause it makes life for our "heroes" easier.

Are you sure he wasn't trying to get to an area "silently" but needed to get there quick and so used his sirens sparingly to blast through lights he didn't have time to wait for?

Are you sure the second officer didn't get a call that was urgent and needed to turn right on that road to get there quickly?

I'm not sure if that was the case or not, but I wouldn't be so quick to judge when there are alternate explanations for a behavior.

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Are you sure he wasn't trying to get to an area "silently" but needed to get there quick and so used his sirens sparingly to blast through lights he didn't have time to wait for?

Are you sure the second officer didn't get a call that was urgent and needed to turn right on that road to get there quickly?

I'm not sure if that was the case or not, but I wouldn't be so quick to judge when there are alternate explanations for a behavior.

 

If that were the case (in both examples) then their lights would have remained on as they drove away.  

 

To add a little more detail:  In the first example, he had sat at the intersection for a moment before turning on the lights and crossing.  This wasn't a guy on his way to an emergency call.  This was a guy who didn't feel like waiting for the red light to change and abused his powers to skip it.  In the second case, it looked like he decided he wanted to turn right but had already missed the turn lane, so he flipped on the lights, made the turn, and turned them off again.

 

Believe me, I wanted these to be legitimate.  I hate being in the bad mood I get into when I see this nonsense go on without consequences.  I watched as they drove away (I was stopped at these red lights, so I was able to sit and watch them drive off) in hopes that the lights would stay on and they'd be zooming off to an emergency.

 

But they weren't and they didn't, and this is pretty typical, at least in my area.  So yes, my friend.  I'm sure.

 

And you know what the worst part is?  Other cops who see this stuff generally don't respond.  It's why I'm not swayed by the argument that says it's the bad apples that spoil the rest.  The rest may or may not be doing it, but they aren't doing anything about it either, even though it's their sworn duty.  I provided a link a few pages back that shows what happens to an officer who does the right thing.  Harassment, threats, and reassignment.

 

Guys, this stuff isn't going to change as long as people want to make excuses for this kind of behavior.  A badge doesn't grant special rights.  People seem to be forgetting this.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I recently watched a touching allegory of law enforcements relationship with the community.  The citizens are sheep, law enforcement are dogs, and the criminals are wolves.  Obviously wolves are dangerous to sheep.  So the dogs are needed.  However, the sheep sometimes cannot tell the difference between dogs and wolves.  From a distance they look similar.  Ultimately, the sheep who feel safest come to despise the dogs--because they look so much like the wolves.  The dogs understand this.  They accept it.  It's part of being a dog.  To be strong enough to defend against the wolves, they must understand, and sometimes mimic the wolves.  Most sheep never get this, so they chastise the dogs, and label them wolf-like.  This hurts the dogs, but they serve their sheep anyway.  Because...they are dogs, and that's what they do.

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I recently watched a touching allegory of law enforcements relationship with the community. 

 

I would add the allegory fails on multiple levels.

 

1) People are not sheep and don't need to be led by a guard dog.  This allegory means that the general populace doesn't have the mental or physical capabilities to think for themselves and needs the guard dog to do the thinking for them. I utterly reject that line of thinking.

 

2) Sheep can't defend themselves from wolves.  Last time I checked we've still go the 2nd amendment.  My safety and the safety of my family is my responsibility not some guard dog.

 

3) Unlike guard dogs, police are not there to stop crime. They are there to find the perpetrators and then bring them in for prosecution.

 

Cops have a very vital role to fill, primarily if my house gets broken into, I can't spend all my time looking for the perp.  That's what cops are supposed to do, find out who broke into my house and then prosecute them.  Unfortunately, they can't do that very well . . . my house was broken into and stuff stolen, never heard a word from the police about it; all the police report is good for is insurance.  So they can't actually do the job they should be doing but they will shoot up some guy in the middle of the night b/c some thief claims the guy has drugs . . . just great.

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1.  It's not that people can't think for themselves, but rather, that we need policing.  We need enforcers of the law.  Some of us may be able to handle a weapon, and others cannot.  Even if every citizen had a weapon, we would still need on-sight arbiters of the law.  So, yes the citizens (sheep) need the police (dogs) to help them "think," when criminals are about their business.

 

2.  So, we're all going to be able to stop drunk drivers now?  Speeders?  We're all going to be able to apprehend thieves who make it away from the household?  We're going to become SWAT capable, when organized criminal gangs are active?

 

3.  Sometimes the dogs fail because we don't let them do their jobs.  Sometimes they just fail.  Sometimes they do exactly what they are supposed to, and we armchair analyze them based on partial and inaccurate information.

 

My guess is that for every story of bungled policing there are dozens, if not hundreds of stories of police helping.  I remember my first driving ticket.  I was falling asleep on an overnight trip, and the officer pulled me over, gave me good counsel, and a minor ticket.  In reality he saved my life.

 

So...I choose gratitude, and to give the dogs the benefit of the doubt.

 

 

I would add the allegory fails on multiple levels.

 

1) People are not sheep and don't need to be led by a guard dog.  This allegory means that the general populace doesn't have the mental or physical capabilities to think for themselves and needs the guard dog to do the thinking for them. I utterly reject that line of thinking.

 

2) Sheep can't defend themselves from wolves.  Last time I checked we've still go the 2nd amendment.  My safety and the safety of my family is my responsibility not some guard dog.

 

3) Unlike guard dogs, police are not there to stop crime. They are there to find the perpetrators and then bring them in for prosecution.

 

Cops have a very vital role to fill, primarily if my house gets broken into, I can't spend all my time looking for the perp.  That's what cops are supposed to do, find out who broke into my house and then prosecute them.  Unfortunately, they can't do that very well . . . my house was broken into and stuff stolen, never heard a word from the police about it; all the police report is good for is insurance.  So they can't actually do the job they should be doing but they will shoot up some guy in the middle of the night b/c some thief claims the guy has drugs . . . just great.

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Talk about twisting the scriptures . . . .

yjacket - I'm not sure where you're getting him twisting the scriptures. Can you make your point more succinctly? Or point out that Jesus did not, in fact, call us sheep? Or warn us against bad shepherds?

 

It seemed a pretty salient point to me, so I'd love to hear you argue a specific point against it rather than make a vague accusation. If I'm misinterpreting the scriptures, I'd love to learn more.

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The article is too few on details.  Unless the girl has "I have mental illness" tattoo'd on her head, a cop has to treat a mentally ill person the same as any other.  So then I read the article again without the mentally-ill part.  A woman walks into a police station brandishing a weapon... I don't see why one would shoot a woman that only had a knife.  It's relatively easy to overpower a woman with a knife instead of having to shoot her especially if you're a trained police officer.  So... there's a lot of details missing - why did the 3 cops decide to shoot?  3 cops.  Not just 1.  3 people came to the same conclusion that she was that much of a threat... I wonder what the reason is?

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Law enforcement is under scrutiny now.  So, every questionable use of force is put under a media magnifying glass.  Then those of us who lean blue try to explain why a seemingly ridiculous headline might have a justifiable explanation, and those who lean towards thinking power has corrupted our protectors give us examples of apparent abuse.  Round and round it goes.  Again, there are cases where law enforcement cannot do the right thing, because regulations, or reactionary restrictions don't allow them to.  The are times where they truly mess up.  Occasionally they do so with intention.  Then there are the majority of cases in which the public does not have all the facts, and we jump to our prejudiced conclusions.  FWIW any headline that says a mentally ill person was a victim of police brutality begs the question of why we assuming the officer knew the person was mentally ill, and how s/he could possibly have known there was no threat.

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Law enforcement is under scrutiny now.  So, every questionable use of force is put under a media magnifying glass.  Then those of us who lean blue try to explain why a seemingly ridiculous headline might have a justifiable explanation, and those who lean towards thinking power has corrupted our protectors give us examples of apparent abuse.  Round and round it goes.  Again, there are cases where law enforcement cannot do the right thing, because regulations, or reactionary restrictions don't allow them to.  The are times where they truly mess up.  Occasionally they do so with intention.  Then there are the majority of cases in which the public does not have all the facts, and we jump to our prejudiced conclusions.  FWIW any headline that says a mentally ill person was a victim of police brutality begs the question of why we assuming the officer knew the person was mentally ill, and how s/he could possibly have known there was no threat.

 

Did you see the President address police training in his youtube interviews (oooh, I have such a beef with that one!  but that is another story...)... he's going to work towards requiring cops to take additional training so that before he stops a perp he can internally ask himself - am I stopping this dude because he's a perp or am I stopping this dude because <insert some bias here>.  Really???  Sigh.

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yjacket - I'm not sure where you're getting him twisting the scriptures. Can you make your point more succinctly? Or point out that Jesus did not, in fact, call us sheep? Or warn us against bad shepherds?

 

It seemed a pretty salient point to me, so I'd love to hear you argue a specific point against it rather than make a vague accusation. If I'm misinterpreting the scriptures, I'd love to learn more.

 

Yes, Christ is the good shepard and we are his sheep; but the analogy is in reference to religious matters not to law enforcement.  Any reference in the scriptures to men on watchtowers, shepards, sheep, etc. is in reference to religious matters, i.e. things that concern the soul.

 

Making the comparison that b/c we are Christ's sheep means that we are law enforcements sheep and that we need guard dogs is called twisting the scriptures.

 

The most appropriate analogy would be the sheep get together and elect some sheep to carry around billy-clubs so if any of the non-billy-club carrying sheep get out of hand they can club 'em.

 

Claiming that the sheep needs "guard dogs" is by the very nature of the analogy putting cops on a higher pedestal and a higher plane than everyone else.  And consequently, they will end up abusing this power. 

 

"We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion."

 

That is what happens when the claim is made that the sheep must have "guard dogs".  Ever heard of the stanford prison experience? http://www.prisonexp.org/

 

Cops aren't my shepard and I'm not their sheep.  They perform a vital function, but currently they have too much power, they have too much "ethos", mystique and ungodly reverence.  They are simply fellow citizens performing a task, that is it-they aren't any better than the rest of the populace-unfortunately they have forgotten that fact.

 

They aren't guard dogs, they are simply sheep with big guns.  Unlike Christ, cops don't have any say over my eternal salvation . . .

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I'll add one of the biggest problems today is that there are so many laws.  Police can't possibly enforce all the laws on the books so they enforce the ones that either a) get them the biggest raises and praises and b) bring in the most money.

 

That means drugs, traffic tickets, etc. . . . far from actually protecting life, liberty and property police forces today are simply a money extortion racket for the political class.

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The article is too few on details.  Unless the girl has "I have mental illness" tattoo'd on her head, a cop has to treat a mentally ill person the same as any other.  So then I read the article again without the mentally-ill part.  A woman walks into a police station brandishing a weapon... I don't see why one would shoot a woman that only had a knife.  It's relatively easy to overpower a woman with a knife instead of having to shoot her especially if you're a trained police officer.  So... there's a lot of details missing - why did the 3 cops decide to shoot?  3 cops.  Not just 1.  3 people came to the same conclusion that she was that much of a threat... I wonder what the reason is?

 

That's kind of what I'm saying. Put a girl in a room with knife and me with no experience and I promise I can bring her down using just objects in the room, chair, mop, desk. I'm not sure why 3 grown men can't take down a 17 year old girl.  Of course police should protect themselves but it just seems like their use of force policy of late is as ridiculous as public schools no tolerance policy. Where is the common sense?

 

I've stated this before, but I believe the behavior of the police is a reflection of how the government in general views it's citizens. I welcome more scrutiny ..not more sensationalism...just more scrutiny. 

 

As for the ignorant racist in the Black Lives Matter movement they are the ones who vote for more and more intrusive government. They are just too stupid and racist to figure out they've just pwnd themselves and continue to do so over and over while their overlords laugh all the way to public office.

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If the cops are taught and drilled to act a certain way when presented with a specific threat (e.g. a knife-wielding suspect), they can hardly be blamed when they react as they were taught. "Common sense" is not as common as we like to think.

 

Perhaps all this scrutiny will help them dust off their batons, mace and tazers.

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I recently watched a touching allegory of law enforcements relationship with the community.  The citizens are sheep, law enforcement are dogs, and the criminals are wolves.  Obviously wolves are dangerous to sheep.  So the dogs are needed.  However, the sheep sometimes cannot tell the difference between dogs and wolves.  From a distance they look similar.  Ultimately, the sheep who feel safest come to despise the dogs--because they look so much like the wolves.  The dogs understand this.  They accept it.  It's part of being a dog.  To be strong enough to defend against the wolves, they must understand, and sometimes mimic the wolves.  Most sheep never get this, so they chastise the dogs, and label them wolf-like.  This hurts the dogs, but they serve their sheep anyway.  Because...they are dogs, and that's what they do.

The problem with LtC Grossmann's analogy in this situation is the dogs in the story don't have a union.

  

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed.

"Punished and removed" rarely happens except for the most grievous offenses. Even then, the union often steps up and gets the officer reinstated, or the record is sealed and he moves on to another department.

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Concerning unions and allegations, the public always bemoans the right of public servants (police, teachers, etc.) to defend themselves.  Of course, we joke about the vultures known as defense attorneys too (since we know everyone is guilty 'til proven innocent in the court of public opinion).  However, when I am the one facing an accusation, I want my union strong, and my defense capable (btw I don't belong to a union--just sayin').

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