Gun opinions


bytor2112
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And you see more weapons in circulation as a good thing?

 

I see law abiding citizens exercising their constitutional rights as a very good thing. Gun enthusiasts tend to be very knowledgeable and safety conscience and promote safe ownership and operation of guns. Accidents happen and that is unfortunate and I am all for better training as is the NRA. Responsible gun ownership is certainly an individual thing, but, so is owning a swimming pool or driving a car. 

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I would ask my friends in the UK – why does their country possess a nuclear device and why have such a weapon?  Also the last time I visited London I observed men armed with automatic rifles in the airport.  Is the only possible reason is because in the UK they are educated and the only purpose, because of their education, is to kill?  It must be very frustrating to everyone in the UK to legally possess such weapons then have to go to bed at night without having killed someone.

 

So going by your logic, nuclear weapons are great, lets give everyone the bomb!  This however is not the case and we see that in all the effort the US uses to stop other nations from gaining nuclear weapons.  And those people with the automatic weapons were not civilians, they would have been the SO19 which is the armed units of the police who are (along side certain military units) the only people legally allowed to have firearms in public in the UK.  

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I see law abiding citizens exercising their constitutional rights as a very good thing. Gun enthusiasts tend to be very knowledgeable and safety conscience and promote safe ownership and operation of guns. Accidents happen and that is unfortunate and I am all for better training as is the NRA. Responsible gun ownership is certainly an individual thing, but, so is owning a swimming pool or driving a car. 

 

I just cannot get enthusiastic about something that's sole purpose in life is to kill.  Guns were designed for one purpose and that purpose is to take life.  Swimming pools and cars can cause death but they are not designed as a gun is with the intended purpose of killing.

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I just cannot get enthusiastic about something that's sole purpose in life is to kill.  Guns were designed for one purpose and that purpose is to take life.  Swimming pools and cars can cause death but they are not designed as a gun is with the intended purpose of killing.

 

It would be a sad day that I had to use my firearms to injure or kill and would only do so in defense of my life or to save someone else. Otherwise, my firearms are primarily for shooting targets and becoming more skillful at shooting and of course self defense.

Edited by bytor2112
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I just cannot get enthusiastic about something that's sole purpose in life is to kill.  Guns were designed for one purpose and that purpose is to take life.  Swimming pools and cars can cause death but they are not designed as a gun is with the intended purpose of killing.

 

 

Some might argue that this is confusing the means with the end.  The end or purpose of guns is to force other people to comply with something.  The means is (are?) the threat of injury or death.  

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Some might argue that this is confusing the means with the end.  The end or purpose of guns is to force other people to comply with something.  The means is (are?) the threat of injury or death.  

 

Not really, nothing changes the fact that guns were designed with one particular purpose and that is to kill.  whether intended or not, the threat of death is always there.

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I would be a sad day that I had to use my firearms to injure or kill and would only do so in defense of my life or to save someone else. Otherwise, my firearms are primarily for shooting targets and becoming more skillful at shooting and of course self defense.

 

And that is great to hear!  I guess that is where the US and the UK are in legal terms so far apart.  It would be illegal to use a gun in self defence in the UK, even legally owned ones.  There have been several high profile cases where people have used guns in what they believe to be self defence and they have ended up in jail.

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Useful to know that when you are attacked in Great Britain, the expected response is that you simply die quietly rather than defending yourself with deadly force.

 

Actually that is not the case, you can defend yourself with reasonable force and that could mean the taking of life.  But the onus is on you to prove that it was reasonable force you used.  If you used deadly force it would be a straight murder conviction and life imprisonment.  

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Actually that is not the case, you can defend yourself with reasonable force and that could mean the taking of life.  But the onus is on you to prove that it was reasonable force you used.  If you used deadly force it would be a straight murder conviction and life imprisonment.  

 

So why is using a gun in self-defense against someone trying to kill you considered unreasonable and murder?

 

And since "life imprisonment" in the UK appears to mean an average of about 12 years until the parole hearing, would you say that's much of a disincentive?

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So why is using a gun in self-defense against someone trying to kill you considered unreasonable and murder?

 

And since "life imprisonment" in the UK appears to mean an average of about 12 years until the parole hearing, would you say that's much of a disincentive?

 

Because that would be seen as using deadly force instead of reasonable force.  The minute you introduce a weapon the stakes are upped.  If for example you are attacked and picked up something lying around and defended yourself with it, then you could argue that it was reasonable because you hadn't intentionally placed said item there to use to defend yourself.  If however you have a baseball bat at the side of your bed with the sole purpose of using it to whack someone then that would be viewed as unreasonable force as it was premeditated and you prepared in advance to use a weapon to cause harm.

As for life imprisonment, it depends on the case and the crime, you could get a life sentence with a minimum term to be served, which could be mean you would die in prison if your older. Or you could be held at her Majesties pleasure, which for all intents and purposes means you'll never get out.

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Oh and I almost forgot, if you put on your application for a firearms certificate that you want to have a gun for self defence then you ain't got a cat in hells chance of getting the certificate.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/363016/Guidance_on_Firearms_Licensing_Law_v10_-_Oct_2014.pdf

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So, while Mr. Intruder is beating your wife with a hammer....you should get up and check around the house for something to apply suitable force to stop and prevent him from doing the same to you?????

 

At my home, Mr. Intruder would be leaking after my strategically  placed Benelli 12 guage unleashed some triple oo buck into him sending him to a quick meeting above.

Edited by bytor2112
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So, while Mr. Intruder is beating your wife with a hammer....you should get up and check around the house for something to apply suitable force to stop and prevent him from doing the same to you?????

 

At my home, Mr. Intruder would be leaking after my strategically  placed Benelli 12 guage unleashed some triple oo buck into him sending him to a quick meeting above.

 

Nope, because I would disarm him and restrain him until the police arrive, and if in that disarm he became hurt from the beating he got or his arm broke when I disarmed him, this would be perfectly within my legal rights as I would be using reasonable force.  However if I did have a shotgun it would be difficult for me to get to it if it was secured in the legally required gun cabinet in a secure room which is a requirement of owning said weapon in the UK.

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Having been to Europe many time as well as having a very good fried who is English living near Manchester I think it's fair to say that the average European has a completely different attitude regarding gun control than we have here in the US.

There is no such thing as a Second Amendment AFAIK in any part of Europe. People who live there historically grew up under monarchies, and a fair amount continue to do so, even if the constitutional variety. In the UK for example, there is no written constitution, even though it is regularly discussed.

Hunting is largely the preserve of the wealthy because all land is privately owned and a hunting lease must be purchased from the landowner. It's not cheap. Having big tracts of public land to hunt for free like we do here in the western US is simply not an option. In my discussions with people in Europe I sense a lot of reverse snobbery against hunting which is class driven IMHO. In the UK the Labor government banned fox hunting just because they could--sticking it to the Nobs so to speak.

So trying to convince someone in Europe how we feel about gun ownership is an act of cultural futility.

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Nope, because I would disarm him and restrain him until the police arrive, and if in that disarm he became hurt from the beating he got or his arm broke when I disarmed him, this would be perfectly within my legal rights as I would be using reasonable force.  However if I did have a shotgun it would be difficult for me to get to it if it was secured in the legally required gun cabinet in a secure room which is a requirement of owning said weapon in the UK.

 

I suspect your wife would be dead and perhaps if you were a Brittish Royal Marine or MMA fighter it might turn out that way. But if you are just an average fellow or elderly...probably not.

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I suspect your wife would be dead and perhaps if you were a Brittish Royal Marine or MMA fighter it might turn out that way. But if you are just an average fellow or elderly...probably not.

 

Nope but I do have 35 years martial art training in armed and unarmed combat, fought full contact for much of that time too.   

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That is just label that is attached to any activity that results in the death of an animal in the UK, even fishing is classed as a blood sport in the UK.

 

Yet the use of the term remains needlessly emotive when referencing people hunting to put food on the table. 

Edited by Dravin
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LDG: "10K plus deaths from firearms a year does seem to be a problem that no one in the US seems to want to sort out, and to me that is very sad."

 

NT: "Did you honestly just accuse everyone in the US of not wanting to deal with 10k deaths in our own back yard?" 

 

LDG: "Not at all, I'm an outsider looking in, and all I see is those who look for some kind of solution to the gun problems you have being squashed under the weight of the gun lobby."

 

Thanks for backing down from your earlier statement that "no one in the US seems to want to sort out" the problem.  I see you now saying there are people in the US who look for a solution, but they are squashed by "the gun lobby".  I'm guessing you see this group as people who fight against gun restrictions out of greed or some other nefarious reason.  Please correct me if I'm missing something.

 

I have vocally opposed firearm legislation in the recent past.  Here in Colorado in the last year or two, I supported the early recall of two state senators because they passed gun legislation we despised.  We forced the resignation of a third.  This news out of Colorado had a chilling effect on the rest of the nation, and other states quietly dumped a lot of the legislation they were considering.

 

I wonder - do you think I qualify as part of "the gun lobby"?  

 

I wonder - what nefarious reason do you think I might have to squash such legislation?   Or perhaps you assume I'm merely a dupe of the gun lobby, swallowing their party line unthinkingly, unable or unwilling to do my own research and form my own conclusions?

 

"When appalling incidents like Dunblane happened in the UK the public outpouring of outrage that this should never happen again was universal.  I don't see that happening in the US, even after many such incidents happening over a long period of time"

 

As others have mentioned, you either haven't been paying attention, or you could use a better source of news.  You can do a google news search for "Sandy Hook Shooting" or "Virginia Tech Shooting" or "Aurora Theater Shooting" or any of the other high-profile events to see how the US reacted.

 

"Why would  a law abiding and well educated person want to own something that has one sole intended purpose, to kill."

 

I think I qualify to answer that question.  My wife and I helped put a guy behind bars for 5-life.  He knows where we live.  He's been inside our house before.  My wife and I prepared for his release date in many ways.  Some of those ways were to get trained and proficient and permitted in a handgun.  In case he came here looking for payback.  In this case, the purpose of the firearm was not to kill.  It was to stop.  Stop any potential or actual attack.  (I'd suggest you do some thinking and reading on the difference between shooting to kill, and shooting to stop.)

 

"I do have 35 years martial art training in armed and unarmed combat, fought full contact for much of that time too."

 

If I lived in a country with such low rates of gun ownership (legal or illegal), I'd feel pretty safe with that too.

 

But when you talk along the lines of 'introducing a gun ups the ante', please realize that bad guys here all have guns.  When you talk of disarming intruders with hammers, please realize that bad guys here have firearms.

Edited by NeuroTypical
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I was up at the range today getting a new taser cartridge (one got expended last night) and had a conversation with our range master about a tactical class we are teaching.  Somehow we ended up on the topic of UK police officers.  I find it interesting that the UK is looking more and more at arming their "patrol" officers with pistols.  I wonder if this will eventually have an effect on private ownership as well. 

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Because that would be seen as using deadly force instead of reasonable force.

 

Yet he's trying to kill me and/or my loved one. Somehow, the UK thinks "deadly force" is unreasonable when defending my life.

 

 

If however you have a baseball bat at the side of your bed with the sole purpose of using it to whack someone then that would be viewed as unreasonable force as it was premeditated and you prepared in advance to use a weapon to cause harm.

 

Right. Planning for self-defense is never allowable. You have to be at the mercy of your attacker and then flail around for something, anything, that can be used as a makeshift weapon. You are not allowed even to keep a club by your bed in case someone breaks into your home.

 

Madness.

 

As for life imprisonment, it depends on the case and the crime, you could get a life sentence with a minimum term to be served, which could be mean you would die in prison if your older. Or you could be held at her Majesties pleasure, which for all intents and purposes means you'll never get out.

 

The point is, "life imprisonment" is more like 15 years in the UK.

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I was up at the range today getting a new taser cartridge (one got expended last night) and had a conversation with our range master about a tactical class we are teaching.  Somehow we ended up on the topic of UK police officers.  I find it interesting that the UK is looking more and more at arming their "patrol" officers with pistols.  I wonder if this will eventually have an effect on private ownership as well. 

 

Will never happen, the police don't want it and the public don't either.

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