Sacrament meeting reverence


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Our ward has a chronic sacrament meeting lack of reverence.

 

 Several problems as I see them:

1. They don't start on time.  at least 2-5 minutes late.

2. They open the overflow well before the meeting starts even though the chapel isn't full, and no one is back there

3. No prelude music 

4. Bishopric doesn't even get seated on the stand until 1 min before starting (5 min before starting because they start late)

5. Chapel doors are kept open the whole time? (Is this standard practice)

6.  Foyer looks like a yard sale during sacrament.  Usually 15-20 people out there with what appears to be almost every toy their children own.

 

What is being done in general in the individual sacrament meetings to foster reverence during sacrament meeting and throughout the rest of church?

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Not sure where you live. That might be relevant. Here's a story from my past.

 

When Sister Vort and I married, we were BYU students. We figured that we had had enough of BYU wards, even though we enjoyed them. Time to be Grown Up and go to A Real Ward®. So we went to a Provo city ward that met in a chapel down around 1st or 2nd South and 1st or 2nd East.

 

This ward had two elders quorums (jn retrospect, I suppose that's not surprising, but it was a first for me) and a huge Relief Society. I was welcomed into the first (?) elders quorum and felt some real brotherhood there, but honestly was pretty much lost in the crowd. Sister Vort said that she was asked to introduce herself every week for our first five weeks there.

 

But the real news was sacrament meeting. It was -- what's the word? Appalling. Utterly appalling. I have never before and, I hope, will never again experience such a thing.

 

It was pandemonium, start to finish.

 

What I say "pandemonium", I mean that you could not hear the speaker because of the constant talking throughout the chapel. Not one or two or a half dozen people, but most of the congregation conversing IN NORMAL TONES. And children running screaming up and down the aisles -- I kid you not! RUNNING AND SCREAMING UP AND DOWN THE AISLES! And the parents making not the slightest move to stop their children. Going into the foyer was no different, except if possible it was even louder, as people considered the foyer an open playground for their children.

 

Seriously, if what we experienced was representative, it's a miracle there are any convert baptisms at all in Provo.

 

In our six weeks there, we heard exactly ONE talk. That was a youth talk from a young woman who spent ten minutes telling the congregation how awful her life was. And that was literally the ONLY talk we heard while in that ward. It was so bad, Sister Vort and I used to sit and play dots-and-boxes on the sacrament meeting program, because we could think of nothing else to do.

 

Needless to say, after six weeks, we fled the city ward and very happily joined a BYU married student ward, where we enjoyed our last couple of years in Provo before moving.

 

The point being, what you experience may be an artifact of living in the so-called "Mormon Belt", if that applies. Outside of there, I have never experienced such a thing. (Though I have seen a disturbing tendency for women who move into our ward from Utah to allow their children to run in the aisles while the meeting is going on. I assume that's a Utah thing.)

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2. They open the overflow well before the meeting starts even though the chapel isn't full, and no one is back there

 

Can you explain how keeping the overflow closed and having it open in the middle of sacrament meeting helps with reverence?

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The point being, what you experience may be an artifact of living in the so-called "Mormon Belt", if that applies. Outside of there, I have never experienced such a thing. (Though I have seen a disturbing tendency for women who move into our ward from Utah to allow their children to run in the aisles while the meeting is going on. I assume that's a Utah thing.)

 

Neither of these things are entirely fair. I've lived in the so-called Mormon Belt my whole life and I have experienced every type of ward, from reverent to irreverent/formal to casual. I cannot use that to claim there are no irreverent wards outside of the Mormon belt...except of course my mission, where the reverence in some branches was problematic (though, to be fair, those in the Mormon belt should know better, whereas the small branches in the Philippines -- not always the case)...but I would dare wager there are bad wards as to the reverence thing outside the Mormon belt too. The fact is, people are people. And people are both good and evil all over.

 

edit: Case in point

 

Nope, California Bay Area family ward.

 

Full volume voices, and the foyer as a full blown playground are accurate descriptions of the conditions.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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It's been awhile since I've been in a family ward (I've been attending YSA wards since 2011), so I'm not sure how relevant my words of wisdom are, but coming from both BYU student wards and normal YSA wards in my hometown, many of the things you discussed as issues are things I see on a weekly basis in my wards. The bishop and bishopric are always out shaking hands until about a minute before we start, people are up and about talking to others until a bishopric member gets up at the pulpit to begin the meeting, we start always about 5 minutes late, we occasionally have prelude music (depends on the pianist and their level of comfort with playing), chapel doors are always open until the actual Sacrament is beginning, and of course there are no children/toys in the congregation.

For me it's not really distracting or irreverent, but maybe I'm just used to it. Now the level of irreverence discussed by other people on here is atrocious. I don't think it would be a bad idea to have a slight reminder sent out to bishops of family wards to address the congregation about the importance of reverence despite the fact that you have noisy children. But what can you do. I guess the most for you individually would be to be as in tune with the Spirit as you can, and you'll get the most out of every meeting every week, despite the lack of reverence from others. 

Edited by Beccabee2
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Can you explain how keeping the overflow closed and having it open in the middle of sacrament meeting helps with reverence?

My point is it shouldn't be opened ever.  Our chapel has a seating capacity of 237.  Our average attendance is 182.  having the overflow open is just another space for people to have a smorgasbord, or spread their 500 piece puzzles all over the floor.  

 

What I am asking is: What are the practices other wards use to encourage reverence before, during and after sacrament meeting?

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My point is it shouldn't be opened ever.  Our chapel has a seating capacity of 237.  Our average attendance is 182.  having the overflow open is just another space for people to have a smorgasbord, or spread their 500 piece puzzles all over the floor.  

 

What I am asking is: What are the practices other wards use to encourage reverence before, during and after sacrament meeting?

 

Agree about the overflow.  Our ward recently tried to keep it closed to fill in the seats more but there was an outcry. :/

Anyway, prelude music needs to be a priority but a couple things I've seen is 'reverent kids' up on the stand with folded arms as a reminder/example.  I've also seen the bishop step up to the mic and remind people where they are.

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In my ward, the bishopric is seated on the stand no later than five minutes before the hour. Previous bishoprics were seated a full ten minutes early. Prelude music is played from about the time the bishopric is seated until the meeting begins. Though we have started a few minutes late the last several weeks, in general we start right at the hour.

 

The bishopric obviously sets the tone for the ward. However, much of sacrament meeting reverence is determined by the practice of the congregation, which is a cultural thing. This is what I was trying to get at earlier; my intent was not to insult Utah congregations, but to try to extrapolate from my own (admittedly limited) experience to suggest some cultural factors that might be in play.

 

I remember attending my aunt's ward in Provo one Sunday, in the chapel on 9th East a few blocks south of the MTC. She sat in back of the gospel doctrine class and literally chatted the entire time with a friend, not in a whisper but in a normal conversational tone. I was appalled, but no one else really batted an eyelash over it. And truth be told, she wasn't the only one engaging in such activities. This along with my later Provo city ward experience led me to believe such things are not uncommon in Utah wards. Having attended Church with my sister-in-law's family in Pleasant Grove and seeing other similar things (though not nearly to the extent as in the Provo wards), I have suspected that it's a Utah tendency. This suspicion has been reinforced by seeing three women from Utah move into my Seattle-area ward at different times, and witnessing all three allowing their children to run up and down the aisles during the sacrament meeting.

 

(And to be fair, one of these women was not originally from Utah, but was born and bred in California.)

 

These were not irreverent women, but women whom I generally held in high esteem. Yet they were completely blind to the disruption caused by their precious angels running the aisles. That smacks of cultural conditioning, and is why I am suspicious that it's caused by cultural factors rather than individual parental incompetence. I suspect such types of actions exist in many wards around the world. In fact, I would be surprised if Sister Vort and I did not have exactly this sort of thing going on with our own children, only we were not sensitive to it and so didn't see it. Maybe not something as blatant and obvious as children running the aisles...

Edited by Vort
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I suspect that seating capacity includes all the seats above the pulpit and everyone sitting shoulder to shoulder with all their coats and bags and lesson materials stuffed under the seats in front of them. Doesn't sound very practical. 

 

Perhaps in your ward it never gets opened during the meeting. I don't think it's a good idea to punish people who come late or those who came on time and want to enjoy a reverent meeting to have that opened at all during the meeting. The considerate thing to do is to open it up and make sure the chairs are arranged so that it doesn't interrupt the meeting.

 

Our chapel only has one set of double doors the congestion is really bad when the meeting ends. Recently our Bishop (now our Stake President) started releasing the teachers first so they can leave to prepare their classes, then opening the doors to the Gym so that people can exit that way. 

 

Here are some other things we do. 

 

1.  Weekly Church cleaning rotation.

2.  Piano music (played expertly by a young pianist who's a member of my son's Post Hard-core Band) 

3. Meeting always starts on time. 

4. Doors closed during sacrament service and re-opened afterwards. 

 

It seems like since everyone takes turn cleaning everyone seems to take a little more care about how the chapel looks. I noticed that some young mothers feed their kids a virtual feast during sacrament meeting and almost always they are white people from the BoM Belt. Those of other cultures in our very diverse ward don't do this at all I noticed. Have no idea how to discourage that. I really don't care I guess as long as they pick it up. 

Edited by Windseeker
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What I am asking is: What are the practices other wards use to encourage reverence before, during and after sacrament meeting?

 

The mood of sacrament meeting, from my experience, really depends on the Bishopric.  They set the tone.

 

In our ward just a few months ago, we were unusually chatty 5 minutes before the meeting (we had new missionaries and a family that moved out of the ward a few years ago that went back to visit, so there were many many many hugs and greetings, etc.) and the bishop reminded us right when the meeting opened that we need to maintain reverence prior to the start of the meeting.

 

We used to have a Reverent Child who stands up on the stand to be an example for the kids, but we don't have him anymore with this current Bishopric.

 

We always have the reverent hymn music playing 10 minutes before sacrament meeting and the Bishopric and Stake leadership is on the stand 5 minutes before the meeting.

 

And we don't have a big nursery... last time I substituted for the Primary chorister, there were only 5 kids in nursery and 4 kids in Sunbeam... so our sacrament meeting is not humming with kiddy noises like our previous ward.

 

Also, since we share the building with 2 other wards, we have to be quiet in the hallways, even in-between meetings, out of respect for the other wards.

Edited by anatess
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Agree about the overflow.  Our ward recently tried to keep it closed to fill in the seats more but there was an outcry. :/

Anyway, prelude music needs to be a priority but a couple things I've seen is 'reverent kids' up on the stand with folded arms as a reminder/example.  I've also seen the bishop step up to the mic and remind people where they are.

 

I can see if there was plenty of room for people to sit, that it would be annoying to have it opened. Also if they are assuming it's some kind of nursery.

 

In my ward no one likes to sit there, everyone would rather sit on the soft cushy seats. But if it gets used by even one family because there are no bench seats left without splitting up the family, then you really ought to open it before hand.

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I wouldn't worry to much about meetings starting 2-5 minutes late. A few minutes is completely reasonable and the Bishop mingling and being welcoming to others can also be a good thing. Much more than 5 minutes persistently is when it starts to be troubling.

There aren't going to be strict rules on open or shut doors and prelude music, but I would agree with you that such things would be helpful for setting the correct spirit to start the meeting.

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So basically our bishopric needs to do the exact opposite of what they are doing right now.....

 

Our seating capacity in the chapel is obviously based on the shoulder to shoulder scenario, but we are well below that threshold by 40-50 individuals on any given Sunday.  The whole bench in front of me yesterday only had one person in it.  

 

I am however a stickler for timeliness.  Starting late sets a whole tone for how unimportant the sacrament meeting really is.  

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The chapel doors are propped open until the sacrament hymn starts, at which point they are shut and remain shut for the rest of the meeting. We usually have a teacher (AP) standing in front of the door during the sacrament itself to act as the doorman for the deacon and to discourage people from entering during the administration of the sacrament.

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Having had 3 kids between 1yr-5yr at one point in time I understand how hard it is to keep them calm in sacrament. when my eldest turned 7 she was a perfectly molded child that sat quiet and listened during the entire hour of sacrament (she is 11 now). My other two kids get restless but are slowly fitting into that mold. It is a hidden blessing and i believe an important human behaviour that we are teaching our kids to sit patiently and reverently.

In about twelve years when all my kids are out on their own and me and wife are sitting alone in sacrament I will smile and be proud of all the naughty little kids running around in the sacrament room causing distraction from the speaker, because those little kids will grow up to be our future leaders. Whats the alternative? tell familys with young kids to go into another room and listen to sacrament through the speaker system until the kids are 7yr old and can sit quietly?

Where ever there are kids there is chaos. I lived in provo before and they just have more kids per square foot then most other areas. In my current ward here in Hawaii there are two young familys that are inactive because they seem to be stressed during the sacrament in managing their young kids and the old single ladies do an eye pass as to say "hey you guys are loud".

Edited by priesthoodpower
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One of times I served as a Bishop our stake President was always encouraging us to start on time and to be on the stand at least 5 minutes before meeting started. We always had our organist play prelude music at least ten minutes before starting. It was a pet peeve of mine once the meeting started to have the chapel doors open. We always asked to have someone close them if they were open. To this day I will get up and close the doors myself if they are open. If I walk in and the other Ward has the doors open during their sacrament meeting I close them.

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mormon women usually go on a spurt of birthing 5 children in 5 years. on the fifth year their husband gets called into the bishopbric and is sitting on the stand...u get the idea.

 

Oh do they "usually"? 

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mormon women usually go on a spurt of birthing 5 children in 5 years. on the fifth year their husband gets called into the bishopbric and is sitting on the stand...u get the idea.

No, actually, I don't get the idea. And I'm not being deliberately obtuse. I recognize the obvious tongue-in-cheek nature of your response, but I assume there is also some real feeling underlying it. But I don't understand it.

 

First of all, most young fathers sit with their families. Only a minority of such fathers sit on the stand.

 

Second, the appropriate reponse to an intractable and noisy child of any age is to TAKE HIM OUT OF THE MEETING. If that means the whole family must go, so be it.

 

Third, once the child is past about two years of age, appropriate (and kindly) discipline will be enough to insure that, within three months, 95% of such children will be making it through most sacrament meetings without any disruption.

 

So whether or not your example was in jest, I'm disinclined to believe the excuse that Mormon sacrament meetings are inherently noisy and irreverent because you just can't make them any other way. On the contrary, I know from personal experience that such an idea is untrue.

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mormon women usually go on a spurt of birthing 5 children in 5 years. on the fifth year their husband gets called into the bishopbric and is sitting on the stand...u get the idea.

This made me Laugh Out Loud.

 

I know quite a few women that fit this description but that may be a demographic thing. I know it's not quite the case in other parts of the country.

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No, actually, I don't get the idea. And I'm not being deliberately obtuse. I recognize the obvious tongue-in-cheek nature of your response, but I assume there is also some real feeling underlying it. But I don't understand it.

Wasn't joking nor being a wise crack. One benefit of having my own marital/family problems is that I can sense similar behaviors in other families in the ward, instead of being annoyed of other dysfunctional familys in the ward I quietly say in my mind "I feel your pain brother, I feel your pain".

 

Second, the appropriate reponse to an intractable and noisy child of any age is to TAKE HIM OUT OF THE MEETING. If that means the whole family must go, so be it.

When the child to parent ratio is equal then this usually does work.

The problem is that a family that has multiple unruly children most likely have parents that are stressed and have marital problems not to mention the pressure of neighbors/friends pointing the finger about how terrible they are at raising kids. Tell these parents to take their kid outside and they will just go home and avoid all that stress. Then a month later in ward council meeting the bishop will talk to the council about how they can bring the family back to church.

Three examples of noisy familys in my ward:

1. Four rowdy boys (6-11yr), parents are inactive. 75 yr old grandma brings them to church.

2. One 3 yr old boy with extreme ADHD, mother a recent convert from Germany, husband deployed to Iraq

3. Five kids (2mo-5yr), mother sits in pew while husband on the stand in bishopric

The members in my ward tolerate the noise because we have compassion. Does the noise distract from the spirit? yes it does but it doesnt distract the bread and water to making its way down my row.

Edited by priesthoodpower
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A baby every year is much and I can't imagine it healthy for the woman. In fact, I'm pretty sure doctors try to encourage women to wait a couple years before becoming pregnant again. But people do what they're gonna do. I have a friend that has four children and she's been married about years...That'd be too much for me, I know often times it's too much for her, it's just a lot of offspring in a short amount of time.

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