The Folk Prophet Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 Well, to clarify: I was taking the OP's labeling of the problem as an "addiction" at face value. And, at the risk of sounding flippant: I've gone through the process that you cite from the OP. Repeatedly. But--confound it!--relapse happened after every one of those instances but one. I hope and pray that what the OP describes is genuine, and it's certainly not my prerogative to pronounce that it isn't--but I think it's also important to note that the human aptitude for self-justification and self-deception, particularly in sexual matters, is profound. Personally, find more success when I do the "one-day-at-a-time" approach than when I just go with the "it's-not-a-problem-anymore" approach. I very much understand what you are saying. And I have similar experience, specifically with pornography. Unquestionably, as well, the fact that I indulged in my youth made it harder to not casually mess up in my older years. I suspect if I had maintained the standards set by our leaders and always avoided it like the plague it is that I would have not had some of the slip ups in my later years when I was otherwise strong but somehow ended up spending time viewing things on the internet that I shouldn't have...and an hour or so later I would be like, "Where did that come from? What on earth? I've been so strong! How did I give into that? What's wrong with me?!" Etc., etc. And yet, still, I would not classify this as either an addiction or a problem that I am in any way guaranteed to "slip up" again. I have the full capability, in spite of my previous choices and mistakes, to control myself. But I also understand that it takes vigilance, dedication, constant discipline, and care. I cannot get lax with my efforts to garnish my thoughts with virtue. I must be proactive in this. I know this. This does not describe addiction, per se, however (I believe). It describes life. It describes Satan and his power and efforts. It describes the battle of good and evil. We are either holding to the rod, paying attention to the Word, making efforts to hear and follow the Spirit, etc., or we are in danger. Period. Tying that into confession to a spouse or not of past transgressions...Ultimately I think I stand by the "follow the Spirit" advice I gave before. Vort and Just_A_Guy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I guess my concern is, where exactly is the line between being diligent while still having turned one's life over to the Lord and relying primarily on His redeeming power (what CS Lewis calls "trying to obey Him[, b]ut trying in a new way, a less worried way. Not doing these things in order to be saved, but because He has begun to save you already.") versus going a little overboard with one's perception of one's own efforts and "white-knuckling it", as they're fond of saying in LDS Addiction Recovery Group meetings. I'm not saying anyone in this thread has crossed that line; I'm just trying to explain that I personally do tend to get a little worried when I hear someone say that their porn addiction (where, I presume, they use the term "addiction" advisedly) has been "overcome". Edited January 6, 2015 by Just_A_Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 I really wonder about porn, its effects, and the moral/spiritual stain it causes. We (as a group) have an interesting "all-or-nothing" approach to, I suppose, "sinfulness". So if we view pornography even one time, we are guilty of that and are stained before the Lord. But if someone really does have a psychological addiction to pornography, wouldn't limiting himself to one instance of porn viewing per day be considered something of a victory, or at least a big step forward? One cigarette per day is pretty nasty, but it's a whole lot less bad than a pack a day. I do not know the answer. Any sin is too much sin, and the Lord can tolerate no sin. So I would never advocate for what I have heard many people say, along the lines of, "It's just porn. No big deal. Get over it." But I wonder if our hyperfocus on porn might tend to work at cross purposes to confronting the problem. How many of us have had a New Year's Resolution, such as "Don't eat M&Ms" or "Exercise every day", but as soon as we screw up one time -- BAM! IT'S OVER! I have officially Messed Up, so now there's really no reason to worry about it more! Might as well finish the whole darn bag of M&Ms, or forget about exercising from now on, or spent the next three hours surfing ever more vile porn. Well, such rationalizations are very human, and they damn us. So we need to overcome them. But I wonder if we could create some social values or memes that help us not to throw in the towel just because we slipped one time. Just_A_Guy and MrShorty 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bini Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 There are fantastic support groups out there. Online and in-person setups. I've joined groups for personal struggles and there is always someone who can relate to what you're going through. You slip up and want to give up sometimes, but with a support system, it makes it just a bit easier to reclaim your life and not throw in the towel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I guess my concern is, where exactly is the line between being diligent while still having turned one's life over to the Lord and relying primarily on His redeeming power (what CS Lewis calls "trying to obey Him[, b]ut trying in a new way, a less worried way. Not doing these things in order to be saved, but because He has begun to save you already.") versus going a little overboard with one's perception of one's own efforts and "white-knuckling it", as they're fond of saying in LDS Addiction Recovery Group meetings. I'm not saying anyone in this thread has crossed that line; I'm just trying to explain that I personally do tend to get a little worried when I hear someone say that their porn addiction (where, I presume, they use the term "addiction" advisedly) has been "overcome". I understand. Personally, I'm a big fan of white-knuckling it. It is insufficient alone, however. We white-knuckle it AND we turn ourselves over to the Savior. It is not a casual, less-worried thing. Turning yourself over to the savior IS white-knuckling. It is done with adamant, intent, full-measure. Wholehearted, eye-single, unequivocal, determination! Anything less is insufficient. The less-worried side of it comes from the Spirit via the Atonement of the Savior, not by our approaching it more casually and with less effort or intensity. The peace comes from God, not the other way around. It is a gift that we get because of our determination to serve him, as shown by our actions and choices. Just_A_Guy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 But I wonder if we could create some social values or memes that help us not to throw in the towel just because we slipped one time. Well, there's your meme: Just because you slipped up... ...don't throw in the towel. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 Well, there's your meme: Just because you slipped up... ...don't throw in the towel. :)I actually meant "meme" in the original sense of "an idea that spreads, infection-like, through a culture" rather than the current definition of "a cutesy saying printed over a stock background image that gets posted on Facebook". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 I actually meant "meme" in the original sense of "an idea that spreads, infection-like, through a culture" rather than the current definition of "a cutesy saying printed over a stock background image that gets posted on Facebook". Hehe. I actually knew you meant it that way. But...it wasn't conducive to the joke...so.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 Vort, just as a matter of academic interest, I think you'd be fascinated to sit in on an LDS addiction recovery group if you haven't done so already; because (at least in my group) that issue comes up a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 Vort, just as a matter of academic interest, I think you'd be fascinated to sit in on an LDS addiction recovery group if you haven't done so already; because (at least in my group) that issue comes up a lot.That would be interesting, but realistically, that's not going to happen any time soon. Can you tell me what the general gist of discussion is? Basically "don't give up", or is it more nuanced than that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idontknow21 Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 Thanks for all the responses everybody. I think that this will be my last post on this site. Asking for advice is good on here, but from here on out I will rely on the counsel of the Holy Ghost and other trusted people. Thanks for all the input, advice and encouragment. Vort 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) That would be interesting, but realistically, that's not going to happen any time soon. Can you tell me what the general gist of discussion is? Basically "don't give up", or is it more nuanced than that? It usually starts out with a reading of one of the twelve steps from the Church's Addiction Recovery Manual, and then just go around the room with each participant saying whatever they feel inclined to say at the time--whether it relates to the speaker's personal experience with the step just reviewed, or any other step, or just generally talking about who the week has gone and their setbacks and triumphs. I've been sitting here for about twenty minutes trying to put my finger on, and articulate, just what is so unique about those meetings and why they are so unlike anything else we do in the Church. Here are some of the factors that I think make a difference: 1) People are willing to talk a LOT more candidly. I was sitting in an elders' quorum lesson on pornography about five months ago, and the instructor intoned that "statistically, probably one or two people in this room have an issue with it". In point of fact, and unbeknownst to the instructor, at least four of us were regularly attending the local addiction recovery group; and one of them was even an LDS Family Services missionary assigned to that group. All three of those brothers to be quite gregarious in group meetings--but that Sunday, none of us said anything. Because--dude--it was elders' quorum; and you just don't talk about your porn problem in elders' quorum. The confidentiality of the meetings, I think, makes a big difference.2) There's a lot more freedom for participants to talk about what's important to them, rather than what the curriculum requires to be discussed on a particular date. Discussions seem a little less . . . (for lack of a better word, and I hope this doesn't get me in trouble) correlated.3) People are willing to discuss their own spiritual progression and spiritual experiences more openly. It's not just "read the scriptures and pray"; it's "I read the scriptures and this particular thing happened"; or "I was talking to my wife and she made this observation that really changed the whole way I look at things", or "I prayed on this date after this thing had happened, and got this powerful response". It sounds like a standard testimony meeting . . . but . . . it isn't. Anyways . . .sorry to be so poor at articulating this. If you get a chance, by all means go to a meeting. :) Edited January 6, 2015 by Just_A_Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Discussions seem a little less . . . (for lack of a better word, and I hope this doesn't get me in trouble) correlated. How...dare...you!! 3) People are willing to discuss their own spiritual progression and spiritual experiences more openly. It's not just "read the scriptures and pray"; it's "I read the scriptures and this particular thing happened"; or "I was talking to my wife and she made this observation that really changed the whole way I look at things", or "I prayed on this date after this thing had happened, and got this powerful response". It sounds like a standard testimony meeting . . . but . . . it isn't. I think it's too bad that this is not the case in EQ and other meetings. I feel quite strongly it should be. Yes, for obvious reasons, we don't talk openly and specifically about porn issues, but on this #3...well...it's a weakness we have among us. We seem generally, pretty lazy in our meetings, which I don't think is the point of being there at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 That's amazing. It sounds liek the addiction recovery group might have more brotherhood than the Priesthood quorum. Not sure whether to be happy or unhappy about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 That's amazing. It sounds liek the addiction recovery group might have more brotherhood than the Priesthood quorum. Not sure whether to be happy or unhappy about that. Decidely unhappy, imo. There's a reason we haven't reached Zion yet. Crypto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
priesthoodpower Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 That's amazing. It sounds liek the addiction recovery group might have more brotherhood than the Priesthood quorum. Not sure whether to be happy or unhappy about that. I have been contemplating a lot lately on why all our meetings on sundays are the way they are, it seems that there is no real opportunity to make deep friendships with other members on a personal level, just 3 hours of curriculum based instruction and people listening. Fast and testimony meetings are my favorite because we have random people getting up and talking about random spiritual things. I have concluded that it has to be this way. In the 3 hour block of church meetings we need the spirit of Christ to be as prevalent as possible and controlled meetings that are not derailed by spontaneous topics are the best way for that. Sinful acts and addiction focused discussions have no place in a church setting where we are trying to lift everyone up rather then relate to how imperfect we all are. I think ward activities,firesides,scouting, home teaching,service projects etc.. and all the other activities outside of church are the opportunity to bond closer with ward members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 The irony is that addiction recovery group meetings are completely anonymous; and (unless a ward member happens to attend) you never see these guys the rest of the week. There is camaraderie, but virtually no community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) Anecdotally, one of my best friends married a guy who had a porn problem, kicked it before his mission, and then married her practically right off the plane and never told her about the porn addiction. Once the stresses of home and children set in, his addiction re-surfaced and escalated, and long story short, it's been a very very painful journey for both of them. I don't know whether or not she would or should have still married him had she known, but I think she sure should have had the chance to make that choice. Edited January 7, 2015 by Eowyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yjacket Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Sinful acts and addiction focused discussions have no place in a church setting where we are trying to lift everyone up rather then relate to how imperfect we all are. Continuing the threadjack. . . .I've been in an Elder's quorum or two where I believe there was a great balance. So the purpose of discussions aren't a confessional, but at the same time I think sometimes it can come off as if no one has problems and everyone is pretty good. Part of it is how individuals judge others, part of it is how individuals think others will judge them, part of it is being willing to open up as an imperfect human being. So while you may not be able to get the same type of feelings from AR at Elder's quorum, I think you can get to the same feeling of comraderie. So while you may not get to the level of detail as AR, I certainly think you can get to the point of Elder's being as JAG said"3) People are willing to discuss their own spiritual progression and spiritual experiences more openly. It's not just "read the scriptures and pray"; it's "I read the scriptures and this particular thing happened"; or "I was talking to my wife and she made this observation that really changed the whole way I look at things", or "I prayed on this date after this thing had happened, and got this powerful response". Just_A_Guy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
believingisachoice Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 So many men had porn addictions, especially in their teenage years--sad to say. And I mean like 90% or higher. Young women wouldn't have anyone to marry if they tried to find guys who had not watched porn at some point in their adolescence. I would not disclose your past porn struggles to your girlfriend on the first several dates, but also not after you became engaged or starting use the "I love you's". If you tell her too soon, she might get scared off, in that case oh well her loss and you saved yourself time and money. If you tell her to late after you are already "in love" and wanting to get married and then after telling her she walks away from the relationship, then you will be very hurt, heartbroken, and question your self worth and also question if you were truly forgiven by the Lord. Girls who deny the power of the atonement in your life are not worth courting. Let them find Mr. Perfect, but not on your dime. Never spend money on another man's wife. Good luck and stay strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 "Watched porn once or twice" and "addicted to porn" are not the same things. 90% of men do not have porn addictions. Let's not normalize and whitewash the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
believingisachoice Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 (edited) "Watched porn once or twice" and "addicted to porn" are not the same things. 90% of men do not have porn addictions. Let's not normalize and whitewash the problem. "Addiction" is a very subjective word. I'm under 30 and of the internet age, and I had 20 close Mormon friends in high school and all but 2 had viewed porn multiple times--to what extent we didn't go into, but it was more than once or twice by everyone's admission. This experience occurred when we went camping for our priest activity, and one of our advisers shared a fireside how he had a porn issue when he was in high school and encouraged us help each other if we struggled. The experience turned into one of those "yeah me too..." experiences, and it was quite powerful actually. And now, having been a counselor for men with the addiction, most struggle their entire lives sadly. Because many people have unhappy lives, and porn is the result of unhappiness and a unbalanced life. You're correct 90% of men do NOT currently have (present tense) porn addictions, but had (past tense) sometime in the life an addiction--which is what I said. Which simply means that they indulged in behavior that they originally intended not to. For some men, porn ruins their life in every way. Some are functioning addicts. But most are past indulgences or flings. Edited February 4, 2015 by ActiveLDSDadandFather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indiewest Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 I think you need to tell her, when you've been together for a while, you see a future, and you know you trust and love each other. Having been in this situation, I really appreciated my SO's honesty about this issue, and because we are committed to each other, we were able to overcome the negative feelings about it. It hurts a lot, and honestly it can be very hard to forgive someone who has had the issue in the past, but that's part of the Atonement: she will eventually, if she is the one for you, forgive you and your relationship will grow stronger because of that trial. I do also agree that there will always be the potential for relapse into that habit, so she has even more right to know, in case it does. notquiteperfect 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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