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FamilyHistoryWannabe

Grandma baptized without permission

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Hello all,

 

I recently stated working on my family history.  I was building my family tree in FamilySearch and I noticed my grandmother's temple work was actively being done.  This makes me very upset, as my mother is still alive and a staunch Baptist who would totally not approve her mom's work being done (she still not comfortable with my own conversion).

 

Is there anything I can do? 

 

I don't know how to tell who submitted the names, and my grandma has no LDS relatives besides myself.  Best I can tell someone submitted the names in a mass group and aren't doing themselves (baptism, confirmation, and initiatory were done on 3 different continents).  If this were some long dead relative I won't be bothered as much, but it's my grandma...

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My mom and my grandparents spent their lives building up their local baptist church.  I remember going there as a child and my grandma telling her testimony with such power.  Recently their local church has had to dissolve-- it's been a very trying time for my mom.  She would be brought to tears at the news that someone baptized her mom Mormon without her permission.

 

I'm also upset... because I loved my grandma so much and was looking forward to one day (after my mom passes) to being able to be able to do her work myself, not by some stranger in Nigeria/Peru/New York.

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My mom and my grandparents spent their lives building up their local baptist church.  I remember going there as a child and my grandma telling her testimony with such power.  Recently their local church has had to dissolve-- it's been a very trying time for my mom.  She would be brought to tears at the news that someone baptized her mom Mormon without her permission.

 

I'm also upset... because I loved my grandma so much and was looking forward to one day (after my mom passes) to being able to be able to do her work myself, not by some stranger in Nigeria/Peru/New York.

 

It also means that someone did this without permission.  You must have permission from any living relative.  I'm a stickler about this.  I have an aunt whose work was done but I know neither she nor my living uncle would have ever given permission. Of course I would have wanted her work done but I also believe in following the rules. It specifically asks if you have permission to do this work.

 

So I totally get where you are coming from.

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You're upset because you're grandma is receiving the blessings of the gospel?

It's not that simple. What if you had to take a business trip, returned home, and discovered that your wife had had your recently-turned-eight-year-old child baptized in your absence?

There's something special about actually participating in the ordinance itself. Obviously, for a given ancestor, not every Mormon descendant can be part of that. But I don't think it is asking too much to expect that, if a decedent remains in living memory of his descendants, the ordinance should be done by (or at least, at the behest of) an honest-to-gosh descendant.

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It's not that simple. What if you had to take a business trip, returned home, and discovered that your wife had had your recently-turned-eight-year-old child baptized in your absence?

 

 

This is a very good analogy of how I feel.

 

My grandma's endowments have not yet been done (the cards were just print yesterday) nor have her sealings.  Is there anything I can do, or do I just have to watch some stranger do it?  I tried emailing the submitter, but haven't gotten a response.

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This is a very good analogy of how I feel.

 

My grandma's endowments have not yet been done (the cards were just print yesterday) nor have her sealings.  Is there anything I can do, or do I just have to watch some stranger do it?  I tried emailing the submitter, but haven't gotten a response.

 

If FamilySearch will let you, reserve her name for ordinances yourself (you don't actually have to do the ordinances; just reserve the name).  If her name is already showing "reserved", I would contact the FamilySearch customer service desk at 1-866-406-1830.  They'll probably have to transfer you a few times; but eventually they should be able to get you to someone who can solve the problem.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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Your mother is upset not because your grandmother was baptized by proxy, but because she feels like "mormons" are closing in around her.

 

This issue is between your mother and herself.  If she brings it up to you, you weren't involved, and tell her now she's got a backup plan.  If she says that she won't need an LDS backup plan (she will), tell her that you were saying if the LDS church doesn't have authority, the Baptists is her backup plan, then smile and love your mother.  She is on her own journey, as we all are.

 

Also goto the Lord and ask him to find out what your grandmother thinks about this.  Its likely you will receive an answer.  This is for you, not for your mother.

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It's not that simple. What if you had to take a business trip, returned home, and discovered that your wife had had your recently-turned-eight-year-old child baptized in your absence?

There's something special about actually participating in the ordinance itself. Obviously, for a given ancestor, not every Mormon descendant can be part of that. But I don't think it is asking too much to expect that, if a decedent remains in living memory of his descendants, the ordinance should be done by (or at least, at the behest of) an honest-to-gosh descendant.

 

I gotchya. It may not be ideal, but the work is done, and in the end it won't matter whit who actually did the work as long as the proper priesthood authority was used for the ordinances. So I can understand it being an issue, sure. But my advice is to count the blessing and rejoice.

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If FamilySearch will let you, reserve her name for ordinances yourself (you don't actually have to do the ordinances; just reserve the name).  If her name is already showing "reserved", I would contact the FamilySearch customer service desk at 1-866-406-1830.  They'll probably have to transfer you a few times; but eventually they should be able to get you to someone who can solve the problem.

 

Thank you for this.  I will get in contact with them.

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I gotchya. It may not be ideal, but the work is done, and in the end it won't matter whit who actually did the work as long as the proper priesthood authority was used for the ordinances. So I can understand it being an issue, sure. But my advice is to count the blessing and rejoice.

 

But yet there are rules in temple work.  People need to follow the rules. I realize the ultimate goal is to have family history work done.  While it may seem horrible that it has to wait..sometimes that is what happens.

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This would upset me, as well.

From what I gathered from OP, her grandma was firm in her convictions as a Baptist, and died that way. The next of kin is her mother, who is also a Baptist, and ultimately feels this is God's true word. Someone should have got consent from the living relative to baptise the deceased (who was actively practicing another faith). I'd be upset, too. I appreciate JAG's analogy. I think going behind the back of living relatives to baptise the dead is wrong.

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But yet there are rules in temple work.  People need to follow the rules. I realize the ultimate goal is to have family history work done.  While it may seem horrible that it has to wait..sometimes that is what happens.

 

I don't disagree (how could I? Rules are rules.) But...what's done is done. No use crying over spilt milk, or so they say.

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You're upset because you're grandma is receiving the blessings of the gospel?

 

I can see where this response is coming from, but if I were in the same shoes I would have to say yes, I am upset. First of all, knowing that my grandma that recently passed was a deeply rooted Catholic, she nearly went ballistic on me when I mentioned that some of our ancestors converted to the church in England because she was convinced they were Episcopalian (they were...after they immigrated to the United States).

 

I hope I'm not stepping on the OP with my opinion, but I would be upset that the rules and regulations that pop up every time you submit a name for temple work were being blatantly ignored. I would be upset that the saving ordinances were being performed without the permission of her husband or her children or grandchildren.

 

And, on a very selfish note, I have found great joy in being able to perform those saving ordinances for my ancestors. To lose the chance of doing such for my grandmother, or someday watching my children (that I hopefully have) be able to do such for her, in the future would be heartbreaking for me.

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Does Grandma have any living siblings? If yes, then it could have been one of them who did her work. Since Grandpa is not living, Grandma's living siblings trump Grandma's living children. 

 

Somewhere in the family tree there is a LDS member. You need to check that out. FamilySearch.org along with Ancestry.com will help you to find that member cousin. 

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I don't disagree (how could I? Rules are rules.) But...what's done is done. No use crying over spilt milk, or so they say.

 

 

Disagree...  If the rules are not enforced then what is the point of the Rule (assuming you thinK the rule serves a good purpose)

 

Whomever did this, broke the rules and needs to be corrected... How is that going to happen if those affected do not 'raise a stink' about it?  Problems need to be raised before they can be addressed.  The question is how to properly address this issue..  Because ignoring it means this person will continue to break the rules because they aren't corrected

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Disagree...  If the rules are not enforced then what is the point of the Rule (assuming you thinK the rule serves a good purpose)

 

Whomever did this, broke the rules and needs to be corrected... How is that going to happen if those affected do not 'raise a stink' about it?  Problems need to be raised before they can be addressed.  The question is how to properly address this issue..  Because ignoring it means this person will continue to break the rules because they aren't corrected

 

I thought about it a bit more. I'm supportive of the idea of addressing it through appropriate channels. I'm not supportive, nor do if find it useful in any regard, to emotionally react with anger, which is why I meant, I think, by "crying" over spilt milk.

 

Anger simply does not help.

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Does Grandma have any living siblings? If yes, then it could have been one of them who did her work. Since Grandpa is not living, Grandma's living siblings trump Grandma's living children. 

 

Somewhere in the family tree there is a LDS member. You need to check that out. FamilySearch.org along with Ancestry.com will help you to find that member cousin. 

 

Grandma has no living relatives besides her daughter (my mom) and son, both of whom are firm Baptists.  Grandma has NO LDS descendents besides myself.  We have big family reunions every summer, including even the third-cousions.  It was a HUGE scandal when I joined the Mormon church.

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I can see where this response is coming from, but if I were in the same shoes I would have to say yes, I am upset. First of all, knowing that my grandma that recently passed was a deeply rooted Catholic, she nearly went ballistic on me when I mentioned that some of our ancestors converted to the church in England because she was convinced they were Episcopalian (they were...after they immigrated to the United States).

 

I hope I'm not stepping on the OP with my opinion, but I would be upset that the rules and regulations that pop up every time you submit a name for temple work were being blatantly ignored. I would be upset that the saving ordinances were being performed without the permission of her husband or her children or grandchildren.

 

And, on a very selfish note, I have found great joy in being able to perform those saving ordinances for my ancestors. To lose the chance of doing such for my grandmother, or someday watching my children (that I hopefully have) be able to do such for her, in the future would be heartbreaking for me.

 

Thank you for your words, they make e feel better.

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Maybe I'm not settled on this point.

 

Understandable... the church strongly pushes the importance of the ordinances and temple work.  This means you have well meaning members trying to find people to do ordinances for.  When they have taken there direct lines back as far as they can easily do then they start going wide instead of deep.  After all a third cousin 5 times removed is technically family and the records are more current.  When such non member sub branches are found its really tempting to ignore the rules.  After all who knows if anyone in that sub branch might ever convert?

 

Yet when they do ignore the rules we get cases like this.  

 

It seems that when it comes to work for the dead the church is all for it... except when it causes issues with the Living... in which cases the church seems to be clearly giving the priority to the living over the dead.  That is something I don't have a problem with.  Even though it means sometimes the dead have to wait even longer.

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Ask a stickler for the rules, I see temple submission for names as two groups: 

 

Group 1)  People born more than 150 (not 110) years ago. These people are long dead and not likely to have surviving immediate family.  I'm less picky about these people.

 

Group 2)  People born <150 years ago and likely to have living immediate family.  Do NOT do if you are not immediate family-- specifically to avoid cases like the OP.  The system is being so abused I think that upon submittal you should have to prove that your are directly related and submit the digital signature of the the closest relative.  Hitting just the one "I have permission" button is so easy blow past.

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Ask a stickler for the rules, I see temple submission for names as two groups: 

 

Group 1)  People born more than 150 (not 110) years ago. These people are long dead and not likely to have surviving immediate family.  I'm less picky about these people.

 

Group 2)  People born <150 years ago and likely to have living immediate family.  Do NOT do if you are not immediate family-- specifically to avoid cases like the OP.  The system is being so abused I think that upon submittal you should have to prove that your are directly related and submit the digital signature of the the closest relative.  Hitting just the one "I have permission" button is so easy blow past.

My little sister hits the "I have permission" button even when she doesn't. Because of this she has alienated three branches of the family- possibly for ever. Eternally wise, not just on earth wise!! They need to have more proof before they allow you to print out the cards. Like visual proof.

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D&C 64:9-10

 

Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.

 

I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

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