are the details still being worked out?


askandanswer
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It has occasionally been taught by reputable sources that there exists counsels in heaven, and that counselling goes on in these counsels, and that the subject of this counselling is God’s kingdom on earth and how best to carry out His plan of salvation such that as many of His children as possible might be able to return to Him. If such counselling is going on, it would suggest that there are significant details about the implementation of the Plan of Salvation that have not yet been worked out. The existence of counsels and the  practice of counselling suggests that there are things that need to be counselled about because they have not yet been decided. This is a new and surprising thought to me because I’d always assumed that the whole thing was worked out in detail before it even started, back in the pre-existence. If it is the case that some of the significant details are still being worked out then perhaps the future course of human history could be changed, depending on the outcome of these counsels. If it is not the case that these counsels are discussing the significant details, then perhaps they are discussing the insignificant details. That would also be a surprising conclusion, given the likely participants in such counsels.  

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There are councils in heaven as you said, and everything you said is true.

 

Father has the entire planned mapped out, the changing part isn't that the plan is changing, its what changes is our individual agency, and our freedom to choose.

 

God does know the outcome, but he enlists his children to participate in the process in making adjustments (not in the over all plan, but in the lives of individuals), because we are also learning and evolving.  More experienced (learned) souls serve on higher councils, while newly departed spirits and others participate on "lower" ones, all learning while having a seat with God at some level because they get to share in the governance of all things.

 

In other words if you choose to detour from your lives mission, somebody else will fill that role.  Father knows this in advance, but allows councils to help determine with him and his Spirit how this happens, for his Children's growth and progression.

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I'll engage in speculation.

The councils if currently ongoing would likely employ a form of abstraction. The plan of salvation would be equivalent to a tree, individual details on an individual dependent on what is currently happening would be equivalent to a leaf. The plan can be worked out in great detail, and still not exact. Like impressionist paintings, you can see the whole picture, but the details can be a bit vague and still make a beautiful and complete picture.  Though this depends on the all knowing aspect of who is involved and other such stuff. This of course could be completely wrong.

Sources are important since we only know a little of what goes on in the realms of heaven, and many engage in wild speculation on it.(like my post)


 

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Remarks indicating that those who have died have simply gone elsewhere to continue their work are sometimes made at the funerals of significant church leaders, and I have included one such quote in the following sources

 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1994/01/the-man-adam?lang=eng

Of this council, a meeting that will be a preliminary appearance of the Savior (prior to his coming in glory), the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “Daniel in his seventh chapter speaks of the Ancient of Days; he means the oldest man, our Father Adam, Michael, he will call his children together and hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the Son of Man.

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In the dream of Joseph F Smith, as quoted in part by President Hinckley in the April 2007 General Conference (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2007/04/i-am-clean?lang=eng) and as recorded in full in the addenda of Gospel Doctrine: Selections from the Sermons and Writings of Joseph F. Smith it sounds very much as if President Joseph F Smith was present at either a postmortal counsel meeting or the outcome of a postmortal counsel meeting.

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Chapter three of Faith Precedes the Miracle, in which President Kimball quotes from a statement made by President Woodruff in the October 1900 General Conference in which President Woodruff talks of his many interviews with Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Heber Kimball, and many others who were dead, and of the counsel they gave him.

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President Benson speaking at the funeral of President Kimball

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1985/12/spencer-w-kimball-a-star-of-the-first-magnitude?lang=eng

President Kimball now takes his place alongside other Apostles and prophets of this and other dispensations who have passed on to the other side of the veil. He will work even more actively there for the building of the kingdom of God on earth. As President Joseph F. Smith said: “Those faithful men … are carefully guarding the interests of the kingdom of God in which they labored and for which they strove during their mortal lives. I believe they are as deeply interested in our welfare today, if not with greater capacity, with far more interest, behind the veil, than they were in the flesh.” (Gospel Doctrine, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1939, p. 430.)

 

President Woodruff, also quoted by President Benson

 “I have felt of late as if our brethren on the other side of the vail had held a council, and that they had said to this one, and that one, ‘Cease thy work on earth, come hence, we need help,’ and they have called this man and that man. It has appeared so to me in seeing the many men who have been called from our midst lately.” (Journal of Discourses, 22:334.)

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The short answer is that receiving counsel from (being guided) does not equate to counselling together (trying to come up with solutions).

 

The Lord counsels us all the time. It means He's guiding us. It doesn't mean He doesn't know the beginning from the end.

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AskAndAnswer, what councils have you served on? Would you care to share your experience and how you think it compares to the heavenly councils?

Most of my experience with counsels has been as an observing and recording clerk for many years at the ward and stake levels rather than as a major participant. I haven't really thought of how earthly and heavenly counsels might be different, but when I think about it now, I'm not sure if they would be very different - I suspect that both types of counsels would involve groups of people drawing on their wisdom and experience, trying to work out to best achieve a desired outcome within the broader framework of the Plan of Salvation. 

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Most of my experience with counsels has been as an observing and recording clerk for many years at the ward and stake levels rather than as a major participant. I haven't really thought of how earthly and heavenly counsels might be different, but when I think about it now, I'm not sure if they would be very different - I suspect that both types of counsels would involve groups of people drawing on their wisdom and experience, trying to work out to best achieve a desired outcome within the broader framework of the Plan of Salvation. 

 

I'm really not sure how you can draw the conclusion that an all-knowing, all-powerful God counsels with others in the same manner that a bunch of fallible mortals who exist behind a veil of forgetfulness counsel together.

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TFP, if you read about the transition of President Snow from President of the 12 to the reorganization of the First Presidency, you'll note he came to the council meeting with a revelation from Jesus in the Temple. Yet he still conducted the meeting, seeking counsel from those present on what should be done. The result was a unified quorum backing the decision.

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Most of my experience with counsels has been as an observing and recording clerk for many years at the ward and stake levels rather than as a major participant. I haven't really thought of how earthly and heavenly counsels might be different, but when I think about it now, I'm not sure if they would be very different - I suspect that both types of counsels would involve groups of people drawing on their wisdom and experience, trying to work out to best achieve a desired outcome within the broader framework of the Plan of Salvation. 

 

A bunch of questions follow, but these are more for your reflection than for an actual answer.

 

Go to the Temple and watch how the Creation Council functions. Also note how they execute their decisions. How does that compare with your experience in ward and stake councils? You may also want to review Abraham 3:22-28 to see how this Council functioned before creation. Who is present in these Councils (I read these verses as a series of Councils rather than one single one with a long agenda)? From there you can continue reading to chapter 4. Also note how, even though the creation is completed, there is still a Salvation Council (for lack of a better term) that is applying the principles laid out in earlier Councils (mentioned in Abraham). How does this follow-up compare with your experience in church councils? Compare with Job 1:6-12 where it looks like a Council is in progress and Satan comes in to give an accounting of his doings. Individuals are discussed in this Council. How does this compare with your experience in church councils?

 

You noted the Adamic Council when everyone reports their stewardship. Did you have a similar experience before the High Council when you completed your mission? The Adamic Council differs from the Heavenly Council because the meeting is held on earth with mortals. Do you think there are some councils in the Church that are extensions of the Heavenly Council?

 

For additional reading, take a look at D&C 102. It comes from the minutes of a high council meeting which the Prophet reported were as good as any revelation he had received. How do you think this plays into our understanding of council decisions (in heaven or earth)?

Edited by mordorbund
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TFP, if you read about the transition of President Snow from President of the 12 to the reorganization of the First Presidency, you'll note he came to the council meeting with a revelation from Jesus in the Temple. Yet he still conducted the meeting, seeking counsel from those present on what should be done. The result was a unified quorum backing the decision.

 

That doesn't seem at odds with my point at all. It seems in line with the council in heaven where God allowed Satan and Jesus (and presumably any other) to present ideas. But God still knew the beginning from the end. He wasn't considering how things should be done.  He knew.

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That doesn't seem at odds with my point at all. It seems in line with the council in heaven where God allowed Satan and Jesus (and presumably any other) to present ideas. But God still knew the beginning from the end. He wasn't considering how things should be done.  He knew.

 

There's a high level of speculation in this. Is there only one Plan of Salvation for each iteration? Is it the same Plan, same mechanics? Are the Heavenly Council meetings simply looking for actors to fill roles? Have we been calling them Councils when we should really have called them Heavenly Trainings?

 

What's more, How does God conduct His Councils? Is He waiting for everyone to arrive at His conclusions before moving forward? What is that waiting like? Does He let Councilmembers implement some "good" but not "very good" so they can learn and grow? Or is everything in the Highest Council really just a commandment to Lessers who then go into other Councils where we start to see more of the familiar format?

 

We don't have a D&C 102 for Heavenly Councils. I think it is worthwhile to ponder how they are run in an effort to better run our own councils (which I think are extensions of those), because I am convinced with what I've seen of both that there's enough overlap between the two.

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There's a high level of speculation in this. Is there only one Plan of Salvation for each iteration? Is it the same Plan, same mechanics? Are the Heavenly Council meetings simply looking for actors to fill roles? Have we been calling them Councils when we should really have called them Heavenly Trainings?

 

What's more, How does God conduct His Councils? Is He waiting for everyone to arrive at His conclusions before moving forward? What is that waiting like? Does He let Councilmembers implement some "good" but not "very good" so they can learn and grow? Or is everything in the Highest Council really just a commandment to Lessers who then go into other Councils where we start to see more of the familiar format?

 

We don't have a D&C 102 for Heavenly Councils. I think it is worthwhile to ponder how they are run in an effort to better run our own councils (which I think are extensions of those), because I am convinced with what I've seen of both that there's enough overlap between the two.

 

There is a great deal of speculation. I agree. What is not speculation is that God knows everything, sees everything, the beginning from the end, and is not learning/deciding as He goes.

 

It is worth pondering. But it is worth pondering with a proper basic understanding of God, rather than a supposition that He's still not sure how He's gonna play all this out moving forward. Concerning the primary question:

 

If it is the case that some of the significant details are still being worked out then perhaps the future course of human history could be changed, depending on the outcome of these counsels.

 

God's plan is based on a perfect foreknowledge. The question seems to imply that God may not have a perfect foreknowledge. He does. And that is the simple answer to the question. But I agree there is potential use in having an expanded discussion, but not if that expanded discussion has false premises at it's core.

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God's plan is based on a perfect foreknowledge. The question seems to imply that God may not have a perfect foreknowledge. He does. And that is the simple answer to the question. But I agree there is potential use in having an expanded discussion, but not if that expanded discussion has false premises at it's core.

 

Quite likely God does have a perfect knowledge of how it will all play out. And one possibility is that the knowledge He has is knowing what the various heavenly councils will decide. But the process of coming to that decision is good for those involved in making it, and God wants what is good for His children, so He lets them counsel together and make decisions, knowing what that decision will be. Or perhaps not even that. Maybe He just knows that whatever they decide will be consistent with, and help to support, His plan, and that is all that He needs to know. God may be content to focus on outcomes rather than methods. What we see in the temple is a set of instructions given, and doesn't really resemble a council meeting. My guess is that the council meeting took place after the instruction was given, and the subject was how best to implement the instruction. 

 

It would seem strange to me that, mortality being a time and place for learning, and the church being the best place to learn about the things of God, and councils forming such an important part of the church, that if, after this life, God suddenly said no more counsels, you're not needed anymore, we don't do any of that up here. I like to think that in some ways, what we see in the church is some sort of reflection, or is at least partially based on, how things were in the previous life and how they will be in the next life. God is a God of order and His course is one eternal round. I think that His emphasis on the role and importance of counsels in this life is partly because they were so important in the previous life and will be so important in the next life. It would be strange if we were all to be so thoroughly schooled in the ways of counselling here, in this life, and then for all of that knowledge and experience to be unused in the next life. God involving us in working out the details through counsels does not lessen God's knowledge. It shows His ongoing love and concern for His children in that He is providing them with this learning opportunity.

 

My experience with stake and ward councils is similar. The bishop or Stake President generally knows that they want, they have a picture of what they would like to happen. They discuss it with their councillors and in ward and stake council meetings. They seek input and receive ideas and suggestions. They make and announce a decision. They then, quite often, hand over responsibility to someone else for carrying forward/implementing the decision. That person might then form a committee, or counsel with others on how best to implement the decision. Eventually they do something, and report back to the bishop or Stake President on what they have done. I don't think this is too different from how counsels worked in the pre-existence or how they are working now in the post mortal existence.  

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