Devastated and Lost


RuthiesMom
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As technology increases, the stone in the hat story actually makes more sense.  How many times have you tried to read your cell phone in bright light?   I always have to cup my hands around it to make it readable.  The description of the stone in the hat explains this practice exactly. Yet, it was written 100 years before the technology existed.  I find that fascinating.

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As technology increases, the stone in the hat story actually makes more sense. How many times have you tried to read your cell phone in bright light? I always have to cup my hands around it to make it readable. The description of the stone in the hat explains this practice exactly. Yet, it was written 100 years before the technology existed. I find that fascinating.

I think my problem is more that he didn't only use the stones buried with the plates, but he used his treasure seeker stone as well.

Edited by RuthiesMom
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I think my problem is more that he didn't only use the stones buried with the plates, but he used his treasure seeker stone as well.

 

This is only a problem if we look at Joseph Smith the Translator as a completely separate person from Joseph Smith the human.  Like, somehow, Joseph Smith got transformed completely during the translation that nothing in his personal experience is ever of consequence.  I don't go by this understanding - even with Biblical people like Mary, Jesus' mother or Joseph, his father... or even Moses and Peter.

 

Peter was a fisherman.  That's what he knew.  Jesus used that experience to call Peter to be an Apostle.

 

I'm a programmer, that's what I'm good at.  When I perform my callings, my skill as a programmer helps me fulfill my calling - any calling.

 

Similarly, Joseph Smith's experiences - when you read up on his background leading to the First Vision, and then his experiences after the vision leading to the translation of the plates... and that includes his gold-hunting and his "stone in the hat reading"... they point to Preparation for the work ahead of him.  So that, his stone is what he was familiar with - what he knew.  God used that experience in calling Joseph Smith to the work of translation.

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RuthiesMom, my question to you is, What is truly wrong with any of these things that are bothering you? Ask yourself this and then think deeply and seriously and logically about the question. I think part of your brain fog may be a purely emotional response to these situations. All too often people people can't give a more detailed answer than "I don't like it." Verbalize the whys. Why don't you like these situations and facts? Write down detailed, complete answers if you can.

 

If you can list logical reasons why these problems are indeed morally wrong, well, there it is. But, I'm sorry to say, "I just don't like it" doesn't cut it when you're trying to work through a mess such as this.  Why don't you like it? Why is it wrong for other Mormons to like it? You need facts to work with, not emotions and drama.

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My heart just hurts and I am just kindof stuck, praying every night for some mind of "ah-hah", where either this stuff won't matter for me because God will let me know that it doesn't matter, 

 

RuthiesMom - I do hope and pray you find the answers you are seeking.  If I may ask some questions and make a suggestion though.  How much time do you spend reading the Book of Mormon compared to doing research on the internet about all the things you feel lied about? What kind of an answer are you looking for precisely, i.e. how are you expecting God to answer your prayers? There are many ways in which God answers our prayers . . . sometimes through a friend, sometimes through scriptures, sometimes He speaks directly to us. One of the key ingredients in getting a response is faith that He will respond. Many times, God is trying to respond to us, we simply are looking in a different direction.

 

Your time is already extremely short with 2 very small children; you are exhausted and overwhelmed. Trying to tackle taking care of them and doing research into all the things that to you don't make sense is very time-consuming.

 

My suggestion is that every night dedicate at least 15 minutes to reading the Book of Mormon, that you spend at least as much time reading the Book of Mormon as you are doing research. If you don't feel like you have time for both then read the Book of Mormon first. I know this might seem too simple or you might say "how can I read it if I'm concentrating on thinking that it is all a lie".  If you are thinking "it is a lie" while reading it, then you aren't really reading, studying and pondering it with an open heart and mind.

 

When you read pay attention to your feelings . . .what brings you the most joy in this life.  Man is on this life to have lasting joy and happiness. There are too many instances where individuals leave the church and leave behind a huge mess of broken homes, bitterness, anger, etc, nothing good.

 

I am not saying to ignore your doubts, only to doubt your doubts first. 

 

 

I still feel lied to. The church history stuff (JSmith and BYoung) is really bothering me and I do not feel like this church is any more enlightened or true than any other...and I am still very much in doubt that there is a God at all now. ...and it sucks. I don't eat, I don't sleep...My heart hurts, my joy is not what it was (not even close)... I can't enjoy my kids or anything else that would make me just smile inside no matter what.
And my kids and husband are also paying the price because this has hurt my ability to be happy even for them. Its just sucked the light right out of my heart...and I am worried that I gotta teach my kids just how complicated this world really is...that nothing is what it seems, not even their faith (that they should trust the most).

 

I still don't understand why you feel like you've been "lied" to.  There isn't a "Church History" class on Sunday. Church on Sunday is for teaching the Gospel and for the purposes of teaching the Gospel sometimes history will come into play.

 

Simply because you didn't know about it doesn't mean the Church lied. I knew about the stone in the hat from seminary and I knew about Joseph's polygamy too and that was 20+ years ago.  

 

When I went through a minor crisis prior to my mission, one of the things that bothered me was that Joseph fired back at Carthage.  I thought . . .well that's not "cold-blood" or as a "lamb to the slaughter" and that's not a martyr. I remember feeling sick simply because it didn't conform to my pre-conceived notion of what a martyr was (I'd think of a martyr as someone like Christ who didn't say anything). Well I realized that my ideas were wrong . . .why couldn't Joseph fight back and still be a martyr.  If I were in his shoes, I'd darn well fight for my life. Just because he fought didn't make him any less of a martyr or murdered in cold-blood or as a lamb to the slaughter.

 

Ultimately, faith is a choice.  We have to choose to believe, or at least want to believe.  If you don't want to believe then nothing will convince you otherwise.

 

The Church, the Gospel, the Book of Mormon, etc. have enriched my life, they have made me a better person, a happier person. I find solace in the scriptures, the spirit, prayer, etc.  I personally have witnessed the Hand of God in my life; but someone else could look at the same thing and say no that wasn't a miracle it was b/c of xyz. I choose to believe and because of that I actively look at seek for His guidance in my life and I find it. I'm a happier individual bc of it. I believe in doing those things that will bring the most lasting joy and happiness in my life . . . and I find it in the gospel.

 

God lives and He is a God of modern miracles I have witnessed them. . . we just have to have faith to see it.

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I also think we really don't know the whole story of Smith's early life.  After he published the Book of Mormon, a slew of anti-Smith stuff was written.  Some went so far as to go to his town and find people willing to talk dirt about him.  The trial of him swindling a farmer by treasure hunting for example, had the farmer actually defending Joseph.  So, clearly there was some back handed railroading to make him look bad.  But even still, he admitted he did some foolish things in his youth, but I take the stories of his youth and treasure hunting with a grain of salt.  We just don't have all the information.  And I agree with what was said, he or the Lord used what he was familiar with.  The interpreters were just symbols to help Smith get started.  He preferred a stone to the Urim and Thummim provided with the plates or perhaps used both.  Either way, I don't see it as an issue.

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I think my problem is more that he didn't only use the stones buried with the plates, but he used his treasure seeker stone as well.

If it makes you feel better--

Joseph got the stone in 1822 at the age of sixteen.

The first Moroni visitation was in 1823. At that time, Joseph goes to retrieve the plates--but is prevented from doing so because (per his mother's recollection) he had initially contemplated using the plates for his own financial gain. He is seventeen years old.

Joseph apparently continues to use his seer stone to find lost objects (not treasure, apparently; just items the owners had mislaid and wanted to retrieve) through 1825.

Joseph was hired by Josiah Stowell in November, 1825 to find abandoned treasure, but persuaded Stowell to abandon the enterprise a month later and told his future brother-in-law that "'peeping' was all d--d nonsense". He is nineteen years old when hired, and barely past twenty when his work for Stowell ends.

Smith's efforts on Stowell's behalf got him accused of (depending on your source) vagrancy, disorderly conduct, or being an imposter, in March of 1826, by Stowell relatives concerned that Stowell is being conned. By all accounts, Stowell himself defends Smith. The accounts of this trial differ wildly; but according to one account, Joseph Smith Sr. testified and "described very many instances of his finding hidden and stolen goods. He swore that both he and his son were mortified that this wonderful power which God had so miraculously given him should be used only in search of filthy lucre, or its equivalent in earthly treasures". There is no record of Joseph using his seer stone for pecuniary gain after this trial, at which time Joseph was still twenty years old.

In the fall of 1827, Joseph was deemed worthy to retrieve the plates. He was now married and approaching his twenty-second birthday.

In spring of 1829, following the lost pages debacle, Joseph Smith resumes translation; now with the newly-arrived Oliver Cowdery in the Whitmer home. This is where we start getting the accounts of Joseph using the seer stone. He is now twenty-three years old and has done no treasure hunting for three years.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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Ruthiesmom wrote: "I think my problem is more that he didn't only use the stones buried with the plates, but he used his treasure seeker stone as well."

 

FINROCK RESPONSE: Essentially your statement above is you judging yourself better than Joseph. Consider for the moment the condition of your life. Then consider how merciful God has been to you despite your many flaws. Wait, how could I, a stranger, know that you have many flaws? I know this because you are mortal. I know this because I am mortal. It has been all that I could do to be forgiven for my sins. If my greatest flaw was that I used stones to seek for treasure, heaven be praised! Not to mention it isn't even a flaw.

 

I mean, what does it matter if God uses stones, birds, twigs, figs, leaves, apples, fruits, to bring about his purposes. Did not God create the stone just as well as the brain that Joseph used to help interpret the plates? Isn't the brain just as much a part of this carnal world than the stone? So, does it matter what medium God used? Your contention is ultimately silly, even though I have compassion and empathy towards having fears and concerns.

 

Keep studying. Don't give up on the gospel. It is true. I stand as a witness to that truth.

 

-Finrock

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Posted · Hidden February 10, 2015 - pending moderator review
Hidden February 10, 2015 - pending moderator review

Ignore most of this advice, these lukewarm statements to get you to stop using your head and your heart.

 

Don't ever "doubt your doubt." USE your doubt to find God. Trust in history, in facts and reason and everyone's perspective that's walked this earth, because ultimately we're all searching for God, admitted or not. 

 

Use your reasoning ability, research everything from LOTS of different perspectives (I.E. Not everything is "AntiMormon") and follow Christ to the best of your ability.

 

Ask yourself if Christ is bigger than a few million people from New York, Ohio, Utah and a mere sliver of history. He is.

 

Best of luck, I will pray for you.

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