lonetree Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) What did you think he was trying to say? That there is no such thing as Freedom of Expression?If he is trying to say that there should be no criticism of 'the prophet' or of 'Islam', then his judgement and counsel does not convince me. Edited January 19, 2015 by lonetree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) If he is trying to say that there should be no criticism of 'the prophet' or of 'Islam', then his judgement and counsel does not convince me. That's not what he says. He used the word "ridicule" in his native language, can be translated to "make fun of". Totally different from criticism. Did you hear his statement? I'll post it here in case you haven't (this got cut off, I can't find the full interview without the "spinning" of news sources):https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnYNHto2CS8 The video is titled "Pope says there are limits to freedom of expression" - which, in itself, is a misrepresentation of the video. He has not said that at all. All he said was - there are CONSEQUENCES to freedom of expression - "You insult my mother, you can expect to be punched in the face." He even re-iterated towards the end of that video that freedom of religion and freedom of expression are fundamental human rights. Book of Mormon musical is out there insulting LDS... I can't count how many movies insult the Catholic faith. You don't see the Prophet nor the Pope saying they need to shut up. Edited January 19, 2015 by anatess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonetree Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Thank you for the clip.To say there are consequences is a prudent but obvious observation."You cannot make fun of faith", it's a 'provocation', 'there is a limit', well,-all of these could be applied to cartoons and sounds like he is politely asking those who ridicule Islam to 'shut up' instead of asking those who take offence to turn away or ignore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) Thank you for your reply.By 'traditional' I meant traditional Catholic teaching, as I (as a non Catholic) am able to understand it. I guess his news making statement "who am I to judge" is the one I would focus on.http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-23489702Isn't he supposed to be the supreme pastor of the church? In today's permissive society, is this the best he could come up with? I suppose on this one I would start with the full quote in question: He was responding to questions about whether there was a "gay lobby" in the Vatican."If a person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge?" First, I would point out that in Catholic (and most Christian) social teachings there is a difference between homosexuality with regards to attraction and acting on those attractions. A person with homosexual attraction who does not act on it certainly does not sin, and as such it is reasonable that Pope Francis would see no fault in that person. Since the question was about a "gay lobby" in the Vatican, it would be reasonable to conclude that the members of said lobby would be celibate clerics, meaning that they would be unlikely to be acting on sexual attraction either way. Even if this is a reference to homosexual people in general, including those who act on the impulse, then the quote still seems reasonable since he included the "and has good will" part. Generally, when the pope (back to John XXIII) refer to people of good will, they are referring to Christians and non-Christians alike who are seeking the truth to the best of their ability. If a person is homosexual, and even if said person acts on their tendencies, if they do so out of ignorance of its sinfulness nobody (the pope included) ought to pass judgement on them for it. Again, the "good will" part presupposes that, if the person is ignorant of the sinfulness of the action, there is no reasonable way they would not be ignorant. That doesn't mean that they haven't heard somebody say "homosexuality is a sin" (most people probably have), but it does mean that they haven't heard it from any source or in conjunction with any argument that, were they free of biases, they should have accepted. On the critique on "criticizing Islam," I think he's more getting at saying one should be respectful when critiquing another's religion, not necessarily that such critiques should not exist. In other words, you can say "Islam is wrong because," but at the same time you should not be deliberately making fun of what other people view as being sacred. I don't think that's necessarily an unreasonable position to take. As for other social teachings, it should be noted that in his recent trip to the Philippines, he upheld Church teachings on things like traditional marriage and contraception. In the past, he has also declared "the door closed" on things like allowing women to become priests. As for why the liberal media loves him, well, as much as I love the guy, he does sometimes make it fairly easy to be taken out of context. Also, some of his views really are what we might consider "liberal" (i.e. on immigration, the economy, climate change, ect). His position on each, however, seems in keeping with traditional Christian values. He's liberal on immigration because it allows for opportunities for the poor in poor countries and helps keep families together which might otherwise be separated by national borders. His stance on the economy differs from the "communism" he is accused of in that communism teaches that you should take from the rich and disperse to the masses, while Francis has advocated the Christian concept of the rich giving to the masses. The end effect is the same, but the means is important. As for climate change, well, whether you believe it's man made or not, if it is there is then you can certainly understand why one might want to curb it. Anyway, that's my take on it Edited January 19, 2015 by Claire CatholicLady and lonetree 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Thank you for the clip.To say there are consequences is a prudent but obvious observation."You cannot make fun of faith", it's a 'provocation', 'there is a limit', well,-all of these could be applied to cartoons and sounds like he is politely asking those who ridicule Islam to 'shut up' instead of asking those who take offence to turn away or ignore. He has stated it very obviously and repeatedly in that interview that there is something wrong with the people who invoked violence in defense of their faith. But, it is easy to get out of somebody's words only the things you want to hear. So that, what you get out of the interview is more a reflection of you than the Pope. And that's just fine, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkstpaul Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 I've been to one Latin Mass, and it was quite beautiful. Pkstpaul, have you been to a Christmas midnight Mass? Hi Faith4,I have been to many Christmas midnight masses. It would be my preference to go to a Catholic service, but in my town of late, the Catholic church doesn't hold a midnight mass so we go to a Lutheran mass. The last Catholic one I went to was at Jackson Square in New Orleans. They had a Cardinal conducting, so it was really special. Blackmarch and faith4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 Hmm, I don't know what you mean by "traditional." Being traditional or not doesn't really matter, what matters is that he adheres to Catholic teachings, and of course, he does. :)No need for "time to tell".... He wouldn't be the pope of the Catholic Church if he didn't agree with Catholic teaching. Just so I can know where you are coming from, what specific issue did you get the impression he was being "uncatholic" about?No problem at all! I didn't think your post was testy. I'm glad you brought this up! As for why he is so popular with the liberal media? I think they are drawn to his humility and people skills. He does a lot to help the poor, is very peaceful and compassionate, and always stresses that we shouldn't judge people or look down on people. Of course, none of this means his views on moral theology are different at all from that of the Catholic Church, but since liberals like him, and since they don't like Catholicism, they always paint a picture of him being as least Catholic as possible. I am a scientist and engineer as well as a devout High Priest in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I deal with secular and religious issues on a daily basis. For the most part I enjoy and applaud the religious devout regardless of religion. But I also recognize that many of the greatest atrocities in history are mostly done by devout believers in the name of G-d and religion. I forget the exact play but Shakespeare dealt in part with the issue of devout believers when a King went among his army incognito prior to a very important battle. The question arises who is responsible for the evils of war - the king or his followers? The king argues that each individual should be held accountable for their actions. The men argue that the king is responsible for the results of going to war. Shakespeare is smart avoid the main problems and does not resolve the discussion. Many are of the notion that what ever their religion teaches they must believe to be saved - that such is the actual exorcize and expression of faith. I am not of this thought. Faith has a place but it was never intended to replace the truth. Faith is a means to the truth - not an excuse to ignore it. With this in mind I am more interested in what an individual believes and what sacrifices they have made in their path to truth. I am not interested in what the Catholic church teaches - I am interested in what you believe and why you believe what you do. As part of my scientific work - I test empirical elements to their very limits to determine their validity. If you like I will take you on a journey for truth that we can walk together and make serious considerations. I have no intention to offend you but to clarify what you believe and why. Jesus said that if we will do his word we will know that his word is true. He did not say it is true because it is written in scripture or taught at church. I am not discounting scripture or religion - except that scripture and religion has failed as a means of resolving differences among devout Christians. CatholicLady 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackmarch Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 (edited) Hi, as Mormons, what are you guys' views on Catholics? Thanks! :)there's some that I'll doing all the pleading i can with God to let them get more in the next life.... and then there's some that could use a good kick in the butt, maybe a couple that could use an around the world wedgie. All in all they seem to be good folks.(and i can say the same about LDS too lol) Edited January 29, 2015 by Blackmarch CatholicLady 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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