Jane_Doe

Non-LDS: Why do you pray?

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Pluto? Lol, I realize it's a typo but it made me laugh.

Other than that, I'm not following you. Perhaps an example of your experience would help me out.

 

I'm going to go fix that typo.... I feel much less embarrassed now.

 

I first encountered Plato in a secular philosophy class.  We spent our time readings Plato's Cave and talking about his "forms" philosophy: talking about idealized reality and how what we see is only a type of shadow of the idealized (pardon my overly condensed version of it).  

 

Several times when I've talked to Catholics they've used this shadow-forms type logic while describing God, Christ, or us (or any combination of those).  Plato's Cave seems embedded in their foundational understanding on those subjects.   (Dislaimer: I am an outsider, looking in, and don't understand everything).

Edited by Jane_Doe

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I'm going to go fix that typo.... I feel much less embarrassed now.

 

I first encountered Plato in a secular philosophy class.  We spent our time readings Plato's Cave and talking about his "forms" philosophy: talking about idealized reality and how what we see is only a type of shadow of the idealized (pardon my overly condensed version of it).  

 

Several times when I've talked to Catholics they've used this shadow-forms type logic while describing God, Christ, or us (or any combination of those).  Plato's Cave seems embedded in their foundational understanding on those subjects.   (Dislaimer: I am an outsider, looking in, and don't understand everything).

It was a wonderful typo, and got me thinking of what a Pluto-based philosophy would be! :D

 

I had the same college course. :) You'll recognize, in the words of Paul, his philosophical training that was no doubt first class (what we would call ivy league) under one of history's greatest rabbinic teachers in Tarsus, which in Paul's time was a center of academia.

 

Plato said, in "Phaedrus":  "they are seen through a glass dimly; and there are few who, going to the images, behold in them the realities, and these only with difficulty" (of course this alludes to his "Allegory of the Cave")

 

Paul said, in 1 Corinthians 13:12 (KJV): "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

 

This is how philosophy is used in religion. Paul is not teaching a pagan idea but using rational arguments, from his educational background, to explain Christianity. Using philosophy to explain Christian theology began with Paul, and has continued through the ages until now.

 

There is no reason to reject academic disciplines because the greatest minds in that discipline are, or were not, of the same religion as ourselves.

 

Plato, being very influential in the western world, continues to influence the world today but philosophy hasn't stood still. There have been hundreds of great Christian philosophers. Two of my favorite contemporary Catholic philosophers are Msgr. Luigi Giussani and Dr. Peter Kreeft. (Kreeft has several free podcasts on his website that I recommend for anyone with an interest in Christian philosophy.)

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.... You'll recognize, in the words of Paul, his philosophical training that was no doubt first class (what we would call ivy league) under one of history's greatest rabbinic teachers in Tarsus, which in Paul's time was a center of academia.

 

Plato said, in "Phaedrus":  "they are seen through a glass dimly; and there are few who, going to the images, behold in them the realities, and these only with difficulty" (of course this alludes to his "Allegory of the Cave")

 

Paul said, in 1 Corinthians 13:12 (KJV): "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

 

This is how philosophy is used in religion. Paul is not teaching a pagan idea but using rational arguments, from his educational background, to explain Christianity. Using philosophy to explain Christian theology began with Paul, and has continued through the ages until now....

 

 
I'm not following you Blue.  1Cor12 is very obviously 100% about charity.  Verse 12 may be a Plato allusion but it's certainly not the thesis of the chapter.  Paul's purpose in Corinthians is to help the people shed disunity and false doctrines, not to further embrace them.  
 

 

 

There is no reason to reject academic disciplines because the greatest minds in that discipline are, or were not, of the same religion as ourselves.

 

 
No one is denying Plato was brilliant.  But citing a pagan to explain Christian beliefs seems like asking a great astronomer for medical advice: it just doesn't work.  
 
Surely you wouldn't want a great Islamic thinker to lead your mass this week?
Edited by Jane_Doe

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Note: I'm not saying that non-Christian thinkers can't have some truths and state them quite eloquently.  I'm just objecting to the idea of them leading and/or being the foundation of Christian worship.

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Doctrines are rooted in the teachings of the Apostles. Philosophy is a tool that describes those teachings using disciplines of rational thought and methods. Philosophies are not doctrines, and are viewed by Catholics as humans describing what has been divinely revealed. Philosophies are not viewed as divine revelations. This does not mean we see the inspiration of the Holy Spirit absent from rational thought. We don't separate out God or view God as absent from any aspect of our lives or what we do.

This is exactly the LDS position. The difference between LDS and Catholic on ghis is simply - the LDS believe that Catholics do not have Apostolic authority.

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I am speaking as a Catholic.

You're not speaking for Catholics. I'm intimate with Catholicism and your position on prayer is weird.

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anatess and Jane_Doe, blueskye is not interested in reasoned conversation. She is interested in making unsubstantiated assertions and doing nothing to further actual communication. IMO, trying to dialogue with her is a waste of time. I suggest you let her make whatever silly assertions she wants to and don't bother replying. She is welcome to think all Latter-day Saints bury their heads in the sand instead of embracing The Gem Of Philosophy®. She is unable to explain why her perception of the (supposed) LDS attitude toward philosophy is "irrational", but saying the word apparently makes her feel all grown up and superior. Whatever.

 

It's Sunday! Enjoy your Sabbath!

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Perhaps you don't realize how your views of Catholicism have been colored by Mormonism.

Or perhaps you need to study Catholicism a bit more.

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It may be that in the New Testament era Greek philosophy had an out-sized influence on Christian writings.  Today I would suggest that therapy does.  So much religious teaching seems geared to comfort and re-assure.

 

Now those are both quips.  There is great value in philosophy and psychology.  However, they ought to serve our understanding of God, not guide it. 

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... So, non-LDS folks: why do you pray?

Prayer

"The Prayer that does not succeed in modulating our wishes, in changing the passionate desire into still submission, the anxious tumultuous expectation into quiet surrender, is not true prayer.

The life is most holy in which there is least of petition and desire and most of waiting on God, that in which petition often passes into thanksgiving.

Pray till prayer makes you forget your own wishes and leaves or merges it into God's will.

The divine wisdom has given us prayer not as a means to obtain the good things of earth, but as a means whereby we learn to do without them. Not as a means to escape evil but as a means whereby we become strong to meet it." - Frederick William Robertson

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Well, I'm LDS but only by 1 month, officially.

So I must opine, or relate.

I was raised as a Catholic so I learned about the bible and the theology.  And we prayed, mostly in strictly prescribed prayers, recited by rote.

As life progressed, I learned others prayed ad hoc, ad lib, so I started.

As an adult I had no church membership.  I wandered aimlessly thru' the desert for 45 years.

However, I did continue to pray.

To know what to do in certain situations, for guidance in school exams, to deal with challenges, etc.

I thought it was out of love of God.  I didn't think I feared God.  Now I realize I do.  And maybe I should.

As I got older, I said daily prayers of gratitude for life (at this age).

I prayed in my desert wanderings in front of the Los Angeles Temple, since it was on the way.  I prayed in front of other churches, looking for some sign.  I prayed in circles with others, since they were doing that.

I got a book of Mormon in 1985. 

Finally, this year Utah inspired me to walk in the (LDS) door. 

Now I had to learn a new way to pray.

Which for the first time includes is the bible true, is the Church true, and is the Book of Mormon true.

Why did I pray?  For all reasons and because I/we just always did.

dc

 

A Doctrine that's a good quote there, I like it.

Someone (maybe a Catholic, William F Buckley Jr maybe quoting someone else) once said, prayer does more for the person praying than it does for God.

Edited by David13

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I was raised Methodist, though my Mom comes from a catholic background.

 

There are things that come out in private prayer... that I don't even share with those closest to me. I think prayer sort of lets you draw out those things you'd be uncomfortable telling anyone else, and in being open with yourself, a lot of weight that often accompanies denial or avoidance of something that may bother you is lifted from your shoulders. So it's certainly therapeutic in that sense. Also, often in prayer, you're thanking something higher then yourself, so it certainly helps in character development, in instilling a sense of gratitude, and frankly, the human being needs that. It makes for a better, humble person.

 

So I think anything that's done in religion, is largely for the benefit of the individual doing it. It isn't here for God's sake. I don't think God needs your acknowledgement, or your anything for that matter. Prayer makes you a better person, just as worship during church service makes you a better, and tithing makes you a better person.

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Completely off topic except for the word "prayer" but I have to wonder since there are probably hundreds of prayers being said around the world at any given moment how they are all kept separate and understood.  And more hundreds keep coming moment after moment after moment etc.   

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3 hours ago, rstrats said:

Completely off topic except for the word "prayer" but I have to wonder since there are probably hundreds of prayers being said around the world at any given moment how they are all kept separate and understood.  And more hundreds keep coming moment after moment after moment etc.   

I recommend reading this - Chapter 3, Zeal without Knowledge, in Approaching Zion, by Hugh Nibley.  You don't need to read previous chapters to understand this one, and I don't think this is one of those difficult-to-understand Nibley things.  It doesn't directly answer your question (by our very nature, mortal mankind cannot understand the answer), but it discusses God's infinite mind vs. our one-thing-at-a-time minds.  I hope you will enjoy it - I certainly did (the whole book is worth reading, IMO).

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Well that's interesting, I'm not LDS and still consider prayer one of the most valuable and amazing gifts God could've given us. I don't pray as much as I would like haha but I definitely strive to speak to him more, sharing my hopes, struggles, and dreams. Speaking to him like a father. 

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On 1/17/2015 at 10:30 PM, Jane_Doe said:

We have a lot of non-LDS on the board lately and have had some really good discussions, so I thought I'd take advantage to ask a question thats been on my mind for a while.

 

We LDS folk are really into praying to God for answers to questions.  I ask God about faith, work, family etc.  However, when I talk to a non-LDS person, praying to God for answers seems like a foreign idea.  That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, which probably means I'm misunderstanding something somewhere.

 

So, non-LDS folks: why do you pray?

 

 

 

 

I term myself Messianic Gentile but obviously I have a lot in common with Latter Day Saints because I had to read

about twenty chapters of your Gospel Principles book before I found anything that I was even close to disagreeing with.......

but I like how it was worded it and felt the way that it was worded was probably necessary.  (Chapters 9 and 13 specifically).

 

I pray...... in order to thank my Creator and My Messiah... .and the Holy Spirit for my life.....

because i believe that eternity stretches ahead of me and what I am being taught right now

has eternal implications........ that I need to be thankful for.  

I also pray to essentially...... alter the space time continuum and bring in a new future......... that has never previously existed......

I believe that I can change the mind of G-d on various specific crisis happening on the earth... through fervent prayer.  

I lean heavily toward Multiverse Theory fitting perfectly with Ezekiel 37......

which I believe has already happened many times.... so through prayer I can bring down more and more and more of the Holy Spirit into the earth.....

into the lives of those who I pray for.....

and their future can be altered.  

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On 1/17/2015 at 10:30 PM, Jane_Doe said:

We have a lot of non-LDS on the board lately and have had some really good discussions, so I thought I'd take advantage to ask a question thats been on my mind for a while.

 

We LDS folk are really into praying to God for answers to questions.  I ask God about faith, work, family etc.  However, when I talk to a non-LDS person, praying to God for answers seems like a foreign idea.  That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, which probably means I'm misunderstanding something somewhere.

 

So, non-LDS folks: why do you pray?

 

 

 

 

I am a former member of the Worldwide Church of God and I have the impression that I pray for very similar reasons to

why and how Latter Day Saints pray.  Yes...... I admit my errors from the past..... and I ask for wisdom and more of the Holy Spirit

so that I can avoid those mistakes in the future.  

Around 1988 I began to suspect that there might be serious flaws in my theology............ so I prayed and asked Messiah Yeshua - Jesus for correction.......

I specifically asked Messiah Yeshua - Jesus to correct me kind of rough..... so that I would catch on to what He was teaching me and not miss it.........

I was beginning to realize that the best of the best of the best of the best of the evangelists that I was listening to...... seemed to be

missing something........  and sure enough I was led to near death experience accounts and over the next decade I was led to radically change my

understanding of the scriptures.  

Something that I found out to do that some of you may find helpful is to take olive oil............  consecrate it in the name of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus...... I 

often put it on the tires of my car and drive around areas where I want Messiah Yeshua - Jesus to expand his kingdom into.  This was done in Cali, Colombia

at the time that it was the murder capitol of the world........ .and an outpouring of the Holy Spirit took place and the transformation in that city was astonishing. 

They actually dumped the anointed olive oil on the city of Cali from a helicopter that they rented.........

I have also consecrated our home and land we own.........

We have seen amazing changes since we took that step.  

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On 1/17/2015 at 8:30 PM, Jane_Doe said:

We have a lot of non-LDS on the board lately and have had some really good discussions, so I thought I'd take advantage to ask a question thats been on my mind for a while.

 

We LDS folk are really into praying to God for answers to questions.  I ask God about faith, work, family etc.  However, when I talk to a non-LDS person, praying to God for answers seems like a foreign idea.  That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, which probably means I'm misunderstanding something somewhere.

 

So, non-LDS folks: why do you pray?

 

 

 

Your question has raised some terrific replies. Replying with a question to your question may not be best but - does the Lord not teach us how to pray? i.e the Lord's Prayer?  Speaking the words "Our Father, Who Art in Heaven".... Is this not the method of communicating with our Heavenly Host? A healthy prayer life is essential. Shall we all pray to God in a like-minded way regardless of any differences in denominations?

Enjoying the Blessings of God

Styln

 

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On 1/18/2015 at 3:30 AM, Jane_Doe said:

We have a lot of non-LDS on the board lately and have had some really good discussions, so I thought I'd take advantage to ask a question thats been on my mind for a while.

We LDS folk are really into praying to God for answers to questions.  I ask God about faith, work, family etc.  However, when I talk to a non-LDS person, praying to God for answers seems like a foreign idea.  That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, which probably means I'm misunderstanding something somewhere.

So, non-LDS folks: why do you pray?

Maybe for a certain moment to gain back some harmony with God. Asking for forgiveness  having moved away from him and forgot about his presence. Asking for forgiveness. Asking for protecting other persons I love. Losing fear. No ceremonial prayers, no routine,  just sporadically and intensively, with no expectation of an immediate answer, but the wish to communicate, and with the certainty not to be unheard.

Edited by OnePassenger

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On 1/17/2015 at 10:30 PM, Jane_Doe said:

We have a lot of non-LDS on the board lately and have had some really good discussions, so I thought I'd take advantage to ask a question thats been on my mind for a while.

 

We LDS folk are really into praying to God for answers to questions.  I ask God about faith, work, family etc.  However, when I talk to a non-LDS person, praying to God for answers seems like a foreign idea.  That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, which probably means I'm misunderstanding something somewhere.

 

So, non-LDS folks: why do you pray?

 

 

 

Strangely enough..... some of my prayers are to convince Messiah Yeshua - Jesus to change His mind

about a situation........ and alter the formula to usher in a totally new time line. 

Back in 1990 I prayed with rather special chutzpah on a number of topics because I felt that a huge percentage of the five billion 

residents of this planet were likely to become victims of what I perceived as an impending Holocaust......

that I thought could be even worse than the Nazi era. 

https://www.near-death.com/science/research/future.html#a03

 

Quote

 

One of Margot Grey's NDE research subjects stated:

 

"During my experience ... I was also shown events that are likely to happen in the near future, but was made to understand that nothing is absolutely fixed and that everything depends on how we choose to use our own free will, that even those events that are already predestined can be changed or modified by a change in our own way of relating to them." (Grey, 1985, p. 123)

 

Multi-colored iconn.  NDE experiencer Howard Storm was given information on how the future is not fixed:

 

"We have free will. If we change the way we are, then we can change the future which they showed me. They showed me a view of the future, at the time of my experience, based upon how we in the United States were behaving at that time. It was a future in which a massive worldwide depression would occur. If we were to change our behavior, however, then the future would be different." (Howard Storm)

 

Multi-colored icon.  Howard Storm was also told how a single person can change the world:

 

"All it takes to make a change was one person. One person, trying, and then because of that, another person changing for the better. They said that the only way to change the world was to begin with one person. One will become two, which will become three, and so on. That's the only way to affect a major change" (Howard Storm)

 

 

 

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