What do you think about WoW?


Lapalabrasinfin
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Interesting idea. However, there are (theoretically) certain benefits to careful and wise usage of caffeine. I'm not sure the same could be said of nicotine.

 

 

 

 

Section 89:8
And again, tobacco .............. is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
 
But you're probably right as the above quote leaves out  "is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man"
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Why do you assume it's the caffeine that makes tea and coffee bad (in the Mormon perspective)?

 

M.

 

The weight of discourse over several decades and the number and frequency of statements from leading Mormon authorities, as partially referred to in one of the earlier posts.

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Just for fun name a Doctrine that has changed.....I am not trying to pick a fight we obviously disagree on the subject, I just would like to know what you think and I will refrain from comment on it.

 

First, you have to define Doctrine.

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I dont worry a whole lot about it as is is not enforced equally and we have had conflicting messages delivered about some issues in the past.

Here is an example:  https://www.lds.org/ensign/2008/12/the-energy-drink-epidemic?lang=eng

 

This article goes on and on about how horrible energy drinks are (and I agree) and that they contain in some cases drastically higher doses of caffeine and other not so good stuff, yet the church doesn't just say, "thou shalt not drink them."

The way I look at it is if they cant make a case for an energy drink, how then can a case be made for coffee and tea? I know....its scripture. I get it, but the fact remains- this stuff is horrible for you yet I can walk around at an LDS church picnic with a red bull, rockstar or whatever and people will ask why I didnt bring them one. Bring a  cup of coffee and I'd be asked to leave.

As for enforcement- Temple recommend interviews ought to determine cause of extreme obesity I see everywhere. I know where it comes from and that is the fact LDS cannot get away from serving refreshments for everything. Since we cant drink, smoke it apparently is ok to clog our arteries with fat and not exercise....clear violations yet I always sit next to someone in priesthood or Gosp Doctrine who cant fit in their chair. There are not that many diabetics running around. 

 

As for smoking- no problem. Well when I retire I'll prob smoke some weed here and there as opposed to taking one of the half-dozen pain killers the VA gives me now for chronic pain. I suppose either way the drug will eventually kill me so why not smoke pot if it works? Besides, its not tobacco so should be alright...........right? If it doesnt work, probably will go back to the opiates as I dont have much interest in being a pot head.

Just my 2 centavos. 

 

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I dont worry a whole lot about it as is is not enforced equally and we have had conflicting messages delivered about some issues in the past.

Here is an example:  https://www.lds.org/ensign/2008/12/the-energy-drink-epidemic?lang=eng

 

This article goes on and on about how horrible energy drinks are (and I agree) and that they contain in some cases drastically higher doses of caffeine and other not so good stuff, yet the church doesn't just say, "thou shalt not drink them."

The way I look at it is if they cant make a case for an energy drink, how then can a case be made for coffee and tea? I know....its scripture. I get it, but the fact remains- this stuff is horrible for you yet I can walk around at an LDS church picnic with a red bull, rockstar or whatever and people will ask why I didnt bring them one. Bring a  cup of coffee and I'd be asked to leave.

As for enforcement- Temple recommend interviews ought to determine cause of extreme obesity I see everywhere. I know where it comes from and that is the fact LDS cannot get away from serving refreshments for everything. Since we cant drink, smoke it apparently is ok to clog our arteries with fat and not exercise....clear violations yet I always sit next to someone in priesthood or Gosp Doctrine who cant fit in their chair. There are not that many diabetics running around. 

 

As for smoking- no problem. Well when I retire I'll prob smoke some weed here and there as opposed to taking one of the half-dozen pain killers the VA gives me now for chronic pain. I suppose either way the drug will eventually kill me so why not smoke pot if it works? Besides, its not tobacco so should be alright...........right? If it doesnt work, probably will go back to the opiates as I dont have much interest in being a pot head.

Just my 2 centavos. 

 

 

 

Your mistaken assumption is that the Lord is concerned about making a case for anything....    The whole point in coming to earth is to test us to see if we will obey all of his commandments.

 

If you are only going to obey his command that fit your notions of what he should be asking... well that answer the question now doesn't it

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Your mistaken assumption is that the Lord is concerned about making a case for anything....    The whole point in coming to earth is to test us to see if we will obey all of his commandments.

 

If you are only going to obey his command that fit your notions of what he should be asking... well that answer the question now doesn't it

I dont recall ever saying the Lord was concerned with making a  case..I asked how they expect to make the case for no coffee / tea while allowing much worse beverages to be consumed. The magazine article was very clear the stuff was horrible for you. Sounds to me like a case was being made to not drink it. If so, why not prohibit it? After all the WOW does not even mention coffee or tea,,,just hot drinks. Granted, interpretation and clarification has been added since. It also does not say I cant smoke weed either- just tobacco. Since no one should question anything I suppose I can blaze away and I'm still in compliance. I mean if I'm going to get flamed for asking, I should just go with strict interpretation- meaning just what it says.

My point is why we (church officials) overlook clear and obvious violations and allow others to pass into the temple?

If  I go to a recommend interview and my bishop saw me smoking the day before...im not getting a recommend. On the otherhand, if I was seen by my bishop the night before at a ward dinner and I cleaned up three plates of food, two sodas and three pieces of pie....weigh 300# and cant make it across the cultural hall for a fifth serving well I'll still be good to go.

We know these people and they are everywhere. They get a pass (always) and if the rest of us decide a smoke or a cup o joe is in order we are very clearly violating the WOW.

Now when I am speaking with a potential investigator about this to I tell them to shut up and obey or do I help them to understand?

The WOW is very clearly not evenly enforced. 

For full disclosure, Im not making fun of fat people (I could lose some myself), just making an illustration of an obvious violation that is essentially overlooked if not encouraged....when do we not have refreshments?

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paracaidista508,

 

It's not enforced evenly because that is not the point. Many, many things are not enforced evenly. With most things, we are taught correct principles and left to govern ourselves. There are, however, certain things that our leadership has determined are strict lines. The evenness of the matter isn't relevant.  The line is the line. But that hard line is only for temple recommends.

 

Anyhow, the culpability we will have before God is really significantly more important. That is a point that so many people seem to miss. There's this whole, "temple recommend=worthy" concept that permeates the church. It is invalid. Likewise is the, "this won't get me excommunicated" concept (another thing that is highly uneven).

 

But our standing before God will not be uneven. God is no respecter of persons. We will stand accountable for our choices, whether we "technically" qualified for a temple recommend and/or membership in the church or not.

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When I was first baptised I searched everywhere for exceptions to the WoW. 

Mainly because I didn't understand why we would be asked to follow some of it - the reported health benefits of tea etc, but the more i looked into it, the more i realised there were no exceptions.

 

Yes, I miss tea and coffee and sometimes alcohol, but in the grand scheme of things there is so much better here and later that we will have.  Giving up tea and coffee is nothing when you consider the blessings.

 

i had a blip and started drinking it al again and it was a horrible time.  I then prayed and began following the WoW again, even in going to bed earlier, and it all began to change.

 

There may not be any understandable reason as to why we shouldn't drink these things, but there is so much that Heavenly Father gives us that we are not yet to understand.  

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Not sure where Sugar fits into the WOW but if you ask me I find this one of the most addictive substances and biggest causes to health problems.

We had a fifth Sunday potluck and the tables were laced with sugary foods and deserts. Of course the prophets have never spoken about this so the general consensus is it's ok. It's also ok to put into our bodies prescribed drugs that alter our mood or behavior. Why? Cause the Dr said it's ok. This leads me to think that maybe rather than droping those things ( tea, alcohol,coffe, ) in the WoW we haven't just exchanged them for other potentially worse substances.

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Not sure where Sugar fits into the WOW but if you ask me I find this one of the most addictive substances and biggest causes to health problems.

We had a fifth Sunday potluck and the tables were laced with sugary foods and deserts. Of course the prophets have never spoken about this so the general consensus is it's ok. It's also ok to put into our bodies prescribed drugs that alter our mood or behavior. Why? Cause the Dr said it's ok. This leads me to think that maybe rather than droping those things ( tea, alcohol,coffe, ) in the WoW we haven't just exchanged them for other potentially worse substances.

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Doctrine is relative, just like morality. Whatever a person believes is right is moral. Whatever a person believes is truth is doctrine.  

 

 

I'm not sure where you get this idea, but oh, well.  Here is what Elder Bednar has to say on the subject.

 

Doctrines: eternal truths revealed by God and answer the question of, “Why.”

Principles: doctrinally based guidelines for the exercise of agency and answer the question of, “What.”

Applications: actions we take in response to doctrines and principles and answer the question of “how”, and provide the specifics of how something needs to be done.

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I'm not sure where you get this idea, but oh, well.  Here is what Elder Bednar has to say on the subject.

 

Doctrines: eternal truths revealed by God and answer the question of, “Why.”

Principles: doctrinally based guidelines for the exercise of agency and answer the question of, “What.”

Applications: actions we take in response to doctrines and principles and answer the question of “how”, and provide the specifics of how something needs to be done.

 

Um...read the sarcastic tone man. Does the dancing banana mean nothing to you?

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This article goes on and on about how horrible energy drinks are (and I agree) and that they contain in some cases drastically higher doses of caffeine and other not so good stuff, yet the church doesn't just say, "thou shalt not drink them."

 

The way I look at it is if they cant make a case for an energy drink, how then can a case be made for coffee and tea? I know....its scripture. I get it, but the fact remains- this stuff is horrible for you yet I can walk around at an LDS church picnic with a red bull, rockstar or whatever and people will ask why I didnt bring them one. Bring a  cup of coffee and I'd be asked to leave.

 

Even though it wasn't made scripture... I think the church was 'making a case' against energy drinks by publishing the article in the Ensign, which is an official publication of the church. I find the WoW guidelines excellent, even for the energy drink issue. Strong drinks' seems like a good description of energy drinks if you ask me.

Energy drinks were unheard of a few years ago, so who knows what crazy things we'll be eating/drinking in the future that the WoW will protect us against? 

 

When you think about it the WoW couldn't possibly be specific about all of the foods and substances on the planet that may be harmful to our body and spirit. It is intended as a general guide for physical and spiritual health - and a darn good one if you ask me.  I remember the days when Mormons were praised for the longevity and good health they enjoyed because of living the WoW.  Sadly that's not the case anymore since the advent of junk food and soda addiction.

 

As for enforcement- Temple recommend interviews ought to determine cause of extreme obesity I see everywhere. I know where it comes from and that is the fact LDS cannot get away from serving refreshments for everything. Since we cant drink, smoke it apparently is ok to clog our arteries with fat and not exercise....clear violations yet I always sit next to someone in priesthood or Gosp Doctrine who cant fit in their chair. There are not that many diabetics running around. 

 

People are not 'unworthy' because of the size of their bodies - a healthy body can just as easily hide secret and serious sins that are far worse than over-eating. 

It's not ideal, but I know that not one person is 'obese' or overweight because they like it - there are many factors that contribute to this and no-one should judge the 'worthiness' of anyone else because of  their weight.

 

On the topic...My bishop has actually addressed this issue with us in Ward Council, asking leaders in the ward to encourage healthy living and providing wholesome snacks at our functions. He reiterated that the  WoW teaches that foods are to be used with 'prudence and thanksgiving' - being prudent means to be wise, careful and thoughtful in our decisions about what we eat.  At functions and pot-lucks we now always have hearty soups with crusty bread, beautiful salads (not the bowl of mayo-covered kind, but lettuce, tomato, cucumber and vinaigrette dressng),  lean meats, fruit salads and a dessert to follow. We also get a lot of Samoan chop-suey - which is an amazing dish. Because our ward meets late in the day, our teachers often bring the children snacks to get them through. In Primary I ask that teachers only provide the children with healthy snacks such as crackers, cheese or cut up fruit.  This is a huge shift from a few years ago when teachers would bring loads of sweets, cookies and chocolates every week. 

 

As for smoking- no problem. Well when I retire I'll prob smoke some weed here and there as opposed to taking one of the half-dozen pain killers the VA gives me now for chronic pain. I suppose either way the drug will eventually kill me so why not smoke pot if it works? Besides, its not tobacco so should be alright...........right? If it doesnt work, probably will go back to the opiates as I dont have much interest in being a pot head.

I can only imagine that you are in a lot of pain for your head to be moving in that direction. My husband lives with chronic back pain and I know what a burden it can be. I hope that your doctors can find a good alternative to help with your pain.

Edited by lagarthaaz
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I am always fascinated with our strict adherence to no coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco etc and our casual observance of eating meat sparingly. Not casting stones, just musing from my own glass house...

 

I love that you mention this, as I did quite a bit of reading on the subject some time ago and it really changed my perspective on the consumption of meat. 

 

It's not just about eating meat sparingly, the JST of Genesis also states that we are accountable for every creature we kill for food:

 

And surely, blood shall not be shed, only for meat, to save your lives; and the blood of every beast will I require at your hands.(Gen 9:11)

 

The prophet also stated:  And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need. (D&C 49:18-21).

 

I personally found this very confronting when I first read it, especially when I thought about how casually we all eat meat from fast-food outlets.  A living, sentient animal had to feel fear and die so that I could woof down that $2 cheeseburger in a few minutes. I realized that as stewards of the earth, we are each accountable for every creature that dies either directly or indirectly because of our consumption of meat. I am not a vegetarian and definitely not a food purist, but for ethical and spiritual reasons I now eat very little meat, and what I do eat I make sure is labelled as pasture-raised and organic.

 

Same goes for eggs - after learning about the conditions of battery hens, I decided to keep two chickens (who make great pets for my kids) and provide us with two perfect eggs most days. If they don't lay enough, I buy 'cage-free' eggs. Cruel treatment of animals even for raising food is wrong -  “a righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.” (Proverbs 12:10). Jesus also taught that not even the sparrows are forgotten by God (Luke 12:6), so if it's good enough for God to care about even the smallest creatures of the earth, it's good enough for me.

 

Luke 12 also tells us to beware of hypocrisy... which I am when it comes to the spirit of the WoW. I don't eat much meat, I don't eat much fat, I don't drink or smoke or take coffee/tea - but I don't eat many veggies in season and oh how I love sugar and salt on pretty much everything  :rolleyes:   

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"People are not 'unworthy' because of the size of their bodies - a healthy body can just as easily hide secret and serious sins that are far worse than over-eating. 

It's not ideal, but I know that not one person is 'obese' or overweight because they like it - there are many factors that contribute to this and no-one should judge the 'worthiness' of anyone else because of  their weight."

Agreed- but it is not the fact alone someone is overweight...it is the fact we see what they do and know from witnessing it that the judgement can be made. No different than if I was out smoking a cigarette on the church lawn between sacrament and sunday school/  If someone saw me do that- I wouldnt see a recommend for at least 6 months if not quite a bit longer. We all know this to be true. My issue is why dont we confront the ridiculous and in our face violations we see all the time??? What exactly is the standard? Whatever we want it to be apparently.

This is why I dont worry about it a whole lot. I dont drink, smoke etc..., but the last thing I'll ever get wrapped around the axle about is the WOW since we only selectively address the obvious.

"I can only imagine that you are in a lot of pain for your head to be moving in that direction. My husband lives with chronic back pain and I know what a burden it can be. I hope that your doctors can find a good alternative to help with your pain."

Never goes away and never will. I dont think the MJ thing is nearly as bad as the opiates. Opitaes are essentially watered down heroine. As to which substance is more addictive??? I'm betting the opiate over the THC. I rarely if ever take them because I get hung over, cant drive and they make me really cranky....you think I'm bad now...ha

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Agreed- but it is not the fact alone someone is overweight...it is the fact we see what they do and know from witnessing it that the judgement can be made. No different than if I was out smoking a cigarette on the church lawn between sacrament and sunday school/  If someone saw me do that- I wouldnt see a recommend for at least 6 months if not quite a bit longer. We all know this to be true. My issue is why dont we confront the ridiculous and in our face violations we see all the time??? What exactly is the standard? Whatever we want it to be apparently.

 

 

 

Total and complete bull.   The standard one has to be meet on the Word of Wisdom aspect of Temple recommend worthiness is very clear.  Ask any missionary.

 

You might get heartburn because the Temple Recommend worthiness only raises a few selected Do Nots from the Word of Wisdom to Commandment level and leaves the rest as "not by way of commandment"...  But to say those which are raised are not clearly laid out is very untruthful 

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