What do you think about WoW?


Lapalabrasinfin
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This discussion has gotten out of control, temple recommended questions are worded so that the individual can anweser according to their conscience. 

 

Do you obey the the word of wisdom?

 

lots of rooms there for interpretation.....lots as has been discussed

 

Do you consider yourself a full tithe payer?

 

We can have a monster thread about what constitutes a "full tithe"

 

Bottom line it's between you, your bishop, and God and "your" interpretation of the law 

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What I think about the Word of Wisdom is irrelevant because it is what it is, and those following the gospel, are unlikely to argue it. But since I was asked, I'll share my feelings on it, though I am not LDS anymore. I think the WOW has some merit, in that it discourages the use of habit forming substances, but other than that I don't believe not following it causes automatic life down spiral. Everything in moderation, I believe. 

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First, you have to define Doctrine.

 

Something that isn’t being covered in this discussion, but should be is not only doctrine but also principles.  In his book, “Increase in Learning,” Elder Bednar goes into this along with what is “intelligence” as referred to in the scriptures.  He defines what is doctrine.

 

Doctrines

"A gospel doctrine is a truth - a truth of salvation revealed by a loving Heavenly Father.  Gospel doctrines are eternal do not change, and pertain to the eternal progression and exaltation of Heavenly Father's sons and daughters....  Gospel doctrines answer the question of why?"

 

Principles

A gospel principle is a doctrinally based guideline for the righteous exercise of moral agency.  Principles provide direction.  Correct principles are always based upon and arise from doctrines, do not change, and answer the question of “what.”

Elder David A. Bednar

 

 

Faith, repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, the reality of Satan and evil spirits, tithing are all set forth in the scriptures and are doctrine.  Doctrines are true no matter the circumstances, but not always contained in the scriptures. 

 

A principle helps you apply doctrine in specific circumstances.  It is situation specific.  I read about a situation regarding modesty.  What is correct dress in one situation is not correct dress in another situation.  I wear sweats and T-shirts around the house.  While it is modest, it is not appropriate for going to church or to the temple.  Principles should be compelling enough to make you want to live to Gospel standards, to choose the correct path in a given situation.

Edited by Ratbag
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I struggle with the WoW.  Do I honestly believe that God cares if I drink coffee or tea?  No I don't.  Especially considering that the WoW wasn't made mandatory until much later.  I think this is one of those things that has made us become somewhat more pharisaical as a people unfortunately  :(

 

I know someone here will say "well the prophet made it mandatory, so that means it's what God wants", but I don't think that's necessarily the case.  There's quite a few examples of policies and doctrines having been changed over time.  I see the church as still being in it's infancy, struggling sometimes to figure things out. 

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Duffman, please be careful when pursuing this line of thinking. If applied to other principles, it can lead to actions and attitudes that can lead us to places we would rather not be. I'm not going to try and guess what God may think of you drinking tea or coffee, but I do believe that your bishop, who was called by the Lord to guide and preside over your ward, cares.

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Duffman, please be careful when pursuing this line of thinking. If applied to other principles, it can lead to actions and attitudes that can lead us to places we would rather not be. I'm not going to try and guess what God may think of you drinking tea or coffee, but I do believe that your bishop, who was called by the Lord to guide and preside over your ward, cares.

 

I completely understand your concern and appreciate it, but it's the line of thinking that makes sense to me.  In fact without this line of thinking it becomes pretty hard for me to reason through some of our troublesome history.  

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I think the Word of Wisdom was mandatory from the start but not taken seriously by the saints. Some of the first questions when asked for entering the Temple was....Do you obey the commandments. Then as time went on they got more specific.

I don't agree with you about God not caring if you don't obey the word of wisdom. I think he does care

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I struggle with the WoW.  Do I honestly believe that God cares if I drink coffee or tea?  No I don't.  Especially considering that the WoW wasn't made mandatory until much later.  I think this is one of those things that has made us become somewhat more pharisaical as a people unfortunately  :(

 

I know someone here will say "well the prophet made it mandatory, so that means it's what God wants", but I don't think that's necessarily the case.  There's quite a few examples of policies and doctrines having been changed over time.  I see the church as still being in it's infancy, struggling sometimes to figure things out. 

 

Sounds like an attempt to justify to me.  Does Heavenly Father love you when you drink coffee or tea?  Yes.  Is he unhappy about it?  Yes.  

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Do I honestly believe that God cares if I drink coffee or tea?  No I don't.  Especially considering that the WoW wasn't made mandatory until much later. 

 

  

Duff - It wasn't made mandatory in the beginning to give the Saints time to adjust (ie mercy).  I'd post a link to prove my point but I've got to get ready for church so maybe later unless someone else gets to it first.

 

eta - 

 

From YW manual 1, lesson 38:

 

To be sure the young women know that the Word of Wisdom is a binding commandment for us today, read the following:

“The reason undoubtedly why the Word of Wisdom was given—as not by ‘commandment or restraint’ was that at that time, at least, if it had been given as a commandment it would have brought every man, addicted to the use of these noxious things, under condemnation; so the Lord was merciful and gave them a chance to overcome, before He brought them under the law. Later on, it was announced from this stand, by President Brigham Young, that the Word of Wisdom was a revelation and a command of the Lord. I desired to mention that fact, because I do not want you to feel that we are under no restraint. We do not want to come under condemnation” (Joseph F. Smith, in Conference Report, Oct. 1913, p. 14).

Edited by notquiteperfect
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Sounds like an attempt to justify to me.  Does Heavenly Father love you when you drink coffee or tea?  Yes.  Is he unhappy about it?  Yes.

I see your point of view, but I just see things differently. The text of the WoW says it's not a commandment, so for me that's how I choose to interpret it. I think it's good counsel and that everyone should choose (use their agency) how to apply it in their lives. BY taught and practiced things we now don't believe or do, so I think we ought to discern things like this for ourselves.

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Wow, 5 seconds ago I was just listening to a General Confrience talk on this ("Free to choose for themselves" by Anderson). 

 

Duff, the Lord acknowledges your right to read and understand the scriptures for yourself, and choose your path.  In fact the Lord WANTS you to do just that.  However, there is a word of caution about choosing wisely because God's laws are God's laws and do not change based on any man's interpretation.  So study wisely.  Maybe it's ok to walk under a ladder because I don't believe it'll bring me 7 years bad luck.  But if I choose to walk off a cliff, the same thing will happen to me whether or not I believe in gravity.

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Wow, 5 seconds ago I was just listening to a General Confrience talk on this ("Free to choose for themselves" by Anderson). 

 

Duff, the Lord acknowledges your right to read and understand the scriptures for yourself, and choose your path.  In fact the Lord WANTS you to do just that.  However, there is a word of caution about choosing wisely because God's laws are God's laws and do not change based on any man's interpretation.  So study wisely.  Maybe it's ok to walk under a ladder because I don't believe it'll bring me 7 years bad luck.  But if I choose to walk off a cliff, the same thing will happen to me whether or not I believe in gravity.

I agree! Agency is one of God's greatest gifts. I guess I don't see the WoW as a definitive law of God. I take the revelation as it reads, and come to my own conclusion.

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Walking under a ladder or not will not deprive you of the ability to go to the temple, is not a breach of covenants if one has been to the temple, and really has no bearing on anything.

 

The Word of Wisdom, on the other hand, will keep you from going to the temple, will keep you from being able to make covenants required for salvation (including baptism), and defies said covenants if one engages in disobedience to it after baptism/temple covenants.

 

So go ahead, exercise your agency to deprive yourself of exaltation. That is, after all, exactly what agency is for.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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Walking under a ladder or not will not deprive you of the ability to go to the temple, is not a breach of covenants if one has been to the temple, and really has no bearing on anything.

 

The Word of Wisdom, on the other hand, will keep you from going to the temple, will keep you from being able to make covenants required for salvation (including baptism), and defies said covenants if one engages in disobedience to it after baptism/temple covenants.

 

So go ahead, exercise your agency to deprive yourself of exaltation. That is, after all, exactly what agency is for.

I don't see God or the gospel in such black and white terms. My grandmother had a cup of tea every single morning and was a faithful saint. By your interpretation she has ruined her chance of exaltation.... I don't believe God cares nearly as much as we do about little, unimportant things like what beverages we drink.

The policies and practices of the church have complicated beginnings. Lots of things have changed, and more things probably will. I feel duty bound to wrestle these things out with God and this is the conclusion I've come to. After all the TR question doesn't ask you the details of how you follow the WoW.

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duffman,

 

When i was 23yrs old my friends dad just got hired to coach the local high school football team. He asked me to be a recievers coach. I told him that I have never played football in my life and know nothing about the receiver position. He said "you are the perfect candidate for this job!"

 

He went on to explain that in order for his offensive system to work he needs everyone to be in sync from the players to the coaches. If he hires coaches that are already seasoned and have developed their own philosophy and habits then it would be hard to change their ways and do exactly what his system calls for.

 

I think the church is the same way, some rules or commandments seem not to make sense for some people while the meek and humble have no problem with it.

Edited by priesthoodpower
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Priesthood power, I do consider myself to be a humble person. In my heart of hearts I feel that the conclusion I've reached on the matter is what God is speaking to me. I feel that as a people we've become too preoccupied with lesser things, and need to focus more on the two great commandments.

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Priesthood power, I do consider myself to be a humble person. In my heart of hearts I feel that the conclusion I've reached on the matter is what God is speaking to me. I feel that as a people we've become too preoccupied with lesser things, and need to focus more on the two great commandments.

I'm fairly certain "Follow the Prophet" has a lot to do with those two great commandments.

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Priesthood power, I do consider myself to be a humble person. In my heart of hearts I feel that the conclusion I've reached on the matter is what God is speaking to me. I feel that as a people we've become too preoccupied with lesser things, and need to focus more on the two great commandments.

 

You have every right to pursue your spiritual journey as you see fit...  It is your agency in action.  Just remember every choice anyone makes has consequences.  You are posting in a public forum and by so doing open yourself up to public commenting on your private choices.  We would be poor followers of Christ if we didn't point out the very negative consequences we see from your actions.

 

Maybe you are not worried about the actions your local church leaders might take when they find out you are disobeying the church's clearly set Word of Wisdom based restrictions...  But it it our choice try to point out to you this very clear consequence and try to point you to the correct path.  All according to our understanding of what Christ would do as much as you as much as you are trying the same.

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I'm fairly certain "Follow the Prophet" has a lot to do with those two great commandments.

Interesting that you say that, because I think follow the prophet has nothing whatsoever to do with the two great commandments. I think it has everything to do with our own personal relationship with God.

The follow the prophet mantra is way over done and excessive in my opinion.

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Interesting that you say that, because I think follow the prophet has nothing whatsoever to do with the two great commandments. I think it has everything to do with our own personal relationship with God.

The follow the prophet mantra is way over done and excessive in my opinion.

Okay. I don't understand then why you're LDS.

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So here is the deal, the WOW is policy of the church not doctrine. We see attempts by modern leaders to justify the lack of enforcement the first 80 or so years of the church and this makes some feel better about it. 

 

Because it is policy and not doctrine we have seen the evolution of that policy and what is and what is not allowed. 

 

My grandfather who was born in 1910 and raised on a farm was a closet coffee drinker his whole life. He had to be because once they made it question to be eligible to enter the temple he had to lie about it.He was a good man and God will judge him fairly.

 

Historically the fact that the full enforcement of the WOW by Heber J Grant coincided with prohibition is not small coincidence  

 

Surely no one here thinks that James E Talmage quit smoking cigars after this declaration and he was an apostle....

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Surely no one here thinks they can claim to me a member in good standing of any organization... If they willingly and willfully defy what that organization requires to be a member in good standing.  No matter what historical events they might try to cite about how the organization has changed it requirements in the pass.

 

And just as surely no one here on this site which is dedicated and focused on being good members of that organization... Should expect to be supported in running counter to the requirements that organization currently has. 

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Okay. I don't understand then why you're LDS.

Okay. I don't understand then why you're LDS.

Because I feel the follow the prophet theme is overdone? Mormonism is much more than believing in and having a prophet. To me it represents a belief in the divinity of man and our own personal connection to God. LDS theology exalts mankind. Following the prophet has little to nothing to do with that. I recently read Givens book "The Crucible of Doubt". He talks a lot about how we have a culture of hero worship towards our leaders. He even points out how past prophets have been concerned with the rhetoric of blind adherence.

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